Wiring for LED light bar

Driving lamps are allowed to be high mounted in WA provided they are in the forward half of the vehicle (because ADR13 states: "towards the front". The only proviso is they must not reflect glare off the bonnet and RV mirrors back in to th drivers eyes.

Hi

I don't think that the intention of ADR13 is to allow them on the roof. And these days the "intention" of the law is paramount in court.

If you look at paragraph 7.3.4.3 it states "In length: at the front of the vehicle". The paragraph you quoted is stating the Orientation of the lights not the position, meaning which direction a driving lamp is to be pointed, ie forwards.

I can not for the life of me, see how at the front of the roof rack or behind the bonnet/engine bay can mean at the front of the vehicle.

Your car mate and your interpretation. A free world and I don't want to argue just saying how I interpret the ADR.

Fair enough?

Phil

Wrong demonstration , the laws RE: light bars & driving lights were changed in May last year ,, you do NOT have to have 2 bars - lights , but a single light MUST be centrally mounted , roof mounted lights are LEGAL but must be switched to a separate circuit than the headlights are can only be used in 'Off Road' situations….

Wholly agree Phil.

Cut-and-pasted from ADR13:

"7.3. ‘DRIVING LAMPS’ "

"7.3.4.3. In length: at the front of the vehicle." This means in respect to the length of the vehicle. i.e. not halfway back or elsewhere.

"7.3.6. Orientation: Towards the front." This means pointing forward, not located "in the forward half of the vehicle".

It does also state: "7.3.4.2. In height: no individual specifications." But this relates to the lights vertical position "at the front of the vehicle" not up on the roof.

Alloy CT,

Can you point to the published legislation that decrees roof-mounting lights as "LEGAL".
The ADR13 referenced above carries "Compilation Date: 24 April 2013" so it is not exactly ancient.

Hi Allan

If what people are saying is true that we can put some lights on the roof then I wouldn't mind trying a pair of LED lights. It may be possible to mount if right down on the roof, thus using the front of the roof to produce a shadowed area for the the bonnet and bullbar. Only have to worry about reflections and glare coming back from any antenna (big white broomstick) etc.

But I would like to see his reference. If they, the different RTAs follow each other, then maybe it is correct. But I think not.

I also noted that the reference was registered on the 10 May 2013. That is the important date. Maybe he has one of the drafts before approval and registration.

Catchya

Phil

Please note in my post 810788 I am only stating what is legal in WA as interpreted by the WA Department of Transport. I understand other states interpret the ADR differently and some do not allow roof mounted Driving Lamps. I agree the 'intention' of the ADR may not have been to allow driving lamps to be roof mounted but the question at law arises: "Where is the FRONT of the vehicle?" If it is the furthermost point forward on a vehicle then the additional lamps may be considered a "dangerous projection" likely to cause more serious injury to a pedestrian than otherwise would be the case should one be hit - just like bull bar mounted fishing rod holders (aka rocket launchers) Is the front within 300mm, 500mm or what from the front bumper? The answer is that nobody knows, so in WA the DOT has interpreted the front to be any point forward midway from the halfway point in the overall length of the vehicle. Therefore in WA they are allowed to be mounted on the roof as there is no height specification in the ADR. If as you say, the lights have to be mounted at the extreme front end of the vehicle, then why does the ADR say they must not reflect in the RV mirrors which are usually mounted adjacent to the right and left 'A' pillars. In your reply you quoted some ADR13 clauses and I would draw your attention to clause 7.1.4.3 which refers to EXTERNAL CABIN LAMPS which are the 5 equally spaced forward facing roof mounted lamps on vehicles exceeding 2100mm in width (usually trucks) The ADR states: "In length: at the front of the vehicle" and as we all know they are roof mounted in the case of a bonneted truck probably 3 or 4 metres from the front bumper. For anyone wanting to view the WA DOT publication this is the link: Optional Front Lamps As regards LED light bars, in WA you must have two or four if they are being used as driving lamps i.e. mounted as per a driving lamp and wired to extinguish simultaneously with the high beam head lamps. The individual LED's with in the light bar are not considered to be "lamps" withing the meaning of 2 or 4 being required. Each individual lamp assembly with its own wiring and power supply is considered to be one lamp and there must be space between them in width. What is allowed in QLD where they bolt a plate in the middle of one full width lamp and deem it to be two lamps is not permitted in WA. As regards the post about 'off-road', yes well you can do whatever you like off-road but the Road Traffic Act comes in to force immediately the vehicles wheels touch a public road. In WA if you have full width LED light bars facing forward and wired via a separate switch and you want to remain legal you would need to either remove them or have them covered while on a road. I think we are on the same page here and no offence was meant by my post or any taken from yours. I am simply stating what is the current legal position in WA. I personally do not have my driving lamps 'hi-mounted' for several reasons and I do not believe it should be permitted but it is. FYI I have posted a link to an image of an Australian complied Nissan X-Trail that was marketed in Australia some years ago:

I was only talking about WA.

Phil

It would be interesting if it got to court. What the DOT says and what the Commonwealth say differ. And it could also be argued that the DOT interpretation is subordinate to what the ADR stated. What fun a barrister would have with that argument. Luckily I wouldn't be paying.

Sorry about the broken post. I just had some contractors arrive and they were wanting to start.

Cheers

Phil

Aarrrgh, it all gets too complicated.
If the highly-intelligent people of ExplorOz Forum cannot agree on interpretation of the regulation what hope has the bureaucracy got in fairly applying the law?
As is often the case, the regulations are not well written to be absolutely unambiguous, so we can easily fall foul of the law when interpreting them for our own application.

Allan you surprise me. It's just like the old comprehension that we had at school. Break all the mumbo jumbo down to phrases and work out what each is saying.

Anyway The GP P1 is on TV so that it for me..

Phil

"Comprehension" Phil??
I only remember Apprehension. LOL

That is believable with you Allan.

No one will ever forget any of your arrests? Bye the way when did you get out this time?

Phil

Blown by 4by , up until last year u needed to do the same in Qld , that is put a Plastic / metal strip on your single LED light bar in the middle to make believe that it was 2 lights …… stupid rule …. soon found to be stupid and non practical ,,, ok light off ' looks like 2 lights ' ,,, put the light on at night !!!!! 2mtr in front it still looks like 1 light..!!!!! Who says Qld is Behind the Times ?????

Time some People learnt to read , yes you PJR & Alan B , roof mounted lights , as I stated previously , are LEGAL , But must be independently switched and USED off road only ,,,,, just because you have a light mounted does not mean u are breaking the law or ADR regs ,,, if so EVERY Roo shooters vehicle would be put off the road in QLD ,,,, get your FACTs right before u dribble around the camp fire ..

Roof mounted Driving Lamps are NOT legal in WA. Go and read our references. We stated facts. You only stated heresay.

Where are your facts? Where are your references? The only one with dribble so far is you.

Phil

It;s obvious where this bloke is going so I am out of here. Leave you guys with it.

Cheers and back to the footy.

Phil

Rest assured, roof mounted driving lamps ARE legal in WA at this point in time. The reason the DOT bulletin covering optional lamps refers to being able to see the road 11m ahead covers the situation of the drivers view ahead being obscured if the lamps are mounted above the bonnet height. This does not preclude them being mounted on the roof where the view of the road ahead is not impaired. The 1.5m height you refer to does not cover driving lamps as there is no height for them specified in the ADR.

Well Alloy, I can actually read and I would be happy to read the document that tells you that roof-mounted driving lights are legal.
I'm not saying they are not legal. Just that I would like to see where it actually says so. ADR13 says they must be at the front of the vehicle. Perhaps something else overrides that. Can you tell me where it is please?
Ah, forget it. I don't really care anyway.

It's absolutely amazing!
Someone asks a question and in helpful response I cut-and-paste a section from a document without opinion and get accused of not being able to read.

True Allan. No opinions. Just facts yet others gave opinions and no facts. Ah well.

Whats this stuff I read somewhere about ADR only being applicable to new cars?

Phil

I think that I will just tag along and see what people say to your post mate.

Phil

Queensland has had a moratorium on LED for a quite a while and changed the rules as per SA. All states will follow soon.

Lights higher than 1.2 mtrs is the issue (ADR 13/00) as above.
Only work lights can be mounted higher and should not be used in normal driving.

Mounting lights on a roof rack may look cool but the light bounces back off the bonnet and makes it harder to see..

I still have roof lights mounted onto my 3/4 rack, the front of the rack is positioned in line where the front and rear sides doors meet. This position gives me more spread to the sides and being positioned that far back does not reflect any light off the bonnet. I find having roof lights gives me far better shoulder 180 degrees vision at night opposed to having all lights mounted up front, coolness has nothing to do with it, it serves a purpose for me.
My roof lights are connected via a fixed Anderson plug on the roof so I can take off the rack when we are no touring.
They are wired to the high beam and bull bar mounted spot lights and can be operated independently.
I have never had an issue with police, though my truck is in impeccable condition for an 80 series, everything is legal besides the roof lights(only when touring).
having said that, I am thinking of doing away with them for obvious legal issues.

Driving lamps are allowed to be high mounted in WA provided they are in the forward half of the vehicle (because ADR13 states: "towards the front". The only proviso is they must not reflect glare off the bonnet and RV mirrors back in to th drivers eyes.

Blownby Read my response at post number 810806.

Phil

For roof driving lamps, according to ADR13 registered 10 May 2013, they are not allowed on the roof and must be at the front and in pairs.

I do recall posts about things not being enforced and under review but can't find any official documents to that effect. Still waiting for Alloy CT to give us his reference.

For the top of the bull bar: I haven't looked far but I did find this in a document at: Vehicle Safety Branch Information Bulletin - WA

Quote:
Other considerations:
-- Driver’s view is not to be obscured by the fitment of driving
lamps.
-- When sitting in the driver’s seat with the seat located at its
rearmost position, it shall be possible to see either the surface of
the road, 11 metres in front of the driver’s eye or the front edge
of the original body when looking across the top of the driving
lamps.

May 2012 5 of 6 IB-123A

There is a diagram that shows the bonnet is supposed to be the limit so I gather that above the bonnet line is still out.

Phil

Maybe this is what you are after, or not after, cruiser on the bullbar top mounting:

I did find this in ADR42 – at: http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L03251 - General safety requirements:
42.10. FIELD OF VIEW
42.10.1. A motor vehicle must not be so constructed or equipped nor must anything be affixed thereto in such a manner as to prevent the driver from having an adequate view of traffic on either side of the vehicle and in all directions in front of the vehicle to enable the vehicle to be driven with safety.

Also at the same reference there is a statement that eliminates any sharp object and so far all LED bars that I have seen have included sharp edges and corners:

42.9. EXTERNAL OR INTERNAL PROTRUSIONS
42.9.1. No vehicle must be equipped with:
42.9.1.1. any object or fitting, not technically essential to such vehicle, which protrudes from any part of the vehicle so that it is likely to increase the risk of bodily injury to any person;
42.9.1.2. any object or fitting technically essential to such vehicle unless its design, construction and conditions and the manner in which it is affixed to the vehicle are such as to reduce to a minimum the risk of bodily injury to any person;
42.9.1.3. any object or fitting which, because it is pointed or has a sharp edge, is likely to increase the risk of bodily injury to any person; or


I will leave you to chase anything else but as I read this ADR42 stuff you would be hard pressed to mount any light on the top of the bull bar and not legally satisfy both these paragraphs. And for some cars there is a further limit of a light not being higher than 1.5M. I saw it but not chasing the reference.

I hope this helps. It doesn't worry me either way as I haven't any driving lights and may never go that way. So Unless you have any questions I shall leave you to it.

Cheers

Phil

Cheers Phil,

Thanks for your input.

And a wave back at ya.

I like that photo. It shows how much I enjoy the bush.

Catchya

Phil

Thanks Alan

Chriso
I also forgot to actually answer your original question, you could run the wires down the side of the snorkel if you have one.

Also I think it was Derek from ABR who posted on his site of how he drilled and grommetted the B pillar of his Prado and run the wires inside the B pillar.
Another way could be to run the wires of the back of the roof rack in through the rear doors. The cable run might be to long for this though.

No problems blown4by

Alan

Yes, of course you are right Alan re ADR only applicable to new cars etc.
Whatever was I thinking. Led into it by other references to ADR....... just wait until I get hold of those who may remain nameless!
Apologies to any that I have confused or offended.

Hi Alan S. Please I am curious to what is used. I have for years believed that the ADRs were the driving documents for all cars that need registration.

According to what I now read I am allowed to install some driving lights on my old Kingswood's roof. Correct? Surely there must be some standard or regulation that must be followed to make sure it won't kill someone. What is it? Lets try WA for example. Or even your home state.

I am not trying to be smart or anything. I am seriously following Alan S's post.

Phill

Phil

The ADR's are gospel for new cars (imported secondhand as well) to be registered. ADR's also change over time but they are not retrospective, i.e the seatbelt example, but there are many more examples as well, such as emissions etc

The states are meant to enforce the ADR's relevant to the car that were applicable to the car when first registered.

It would be a nightmare if they became retrospective.


Once registered then modifications to the vehicle fall within individual state regulations.

So yes in the case of your old kingswood if you fitted two lights to the roof and lived in WA it would legal. Although if fitted in an unsafe manner you could still be pinged.

You may have problems if you travel to anothe state depending on their regs

Light modifications are just like engine changes or any other modification they are governed by rules.

As previous mentioned by others in WA you can lights on the roof, but there must be two.

Alan

In that case the recent hullabaloo about not being allowed to fit bullbars to our cars, in our case a 2005 100 series, was a total waste of time for the greater majority. Would that be a fair statement?

I am not giving an opinion here. I did ask others for a reference to an official ruling backing up their claims but they have not as yet responded.

Can you help with a reference backing up what you are saying? I am NOT saying that you are wrong. Okay. I would just like to see it in writing.

Phil

Phil

Dont know about bullbars and wasnt following that issue.

I just got sick of people bickering, and people who were posting valid links and information being told they were wrong.
Always wondered about the relationship between ADR's and state reg so this morning i googled it, Australian Desing Rules

second paragraph describes it well,
"The current standards, the Third Edition ADRs, are administered by the Australian Government under the Motor Vehicle Standards Act 1989. The Act requires all road vehicles, whether they are newly manufactured in Australia or are imported as new or second hand vehicles, to comply with the relevant ADRs at the time of manufacture and supply to the Australian market. When a road vehicle is first used on Australian roads the relevant state or territory government’s legislation generally requires that it continue to comply with the relevant ADRs as at the time of manufacture."

Alan

Thanks Alan. That is interesting. So to answer the initial poster we should say that he has to go and get the design specifications or that ever they were called for "back then". And then he would have to look for any gazetted etc amendment or official release that refutes or retrospectively amends those specific rules. Buggered if I am going to do that.

One could say it is either a paper trail minefield or a legal profession gold mine.

Time to put it to bed. Personally it doesn't effect me. I haven't the need for any driving lights. The double headlights do us fine.

But I do like to see it in writing, and can't stand people who just say something relating to rules or the law and can't back it up.

Thanks for the reference and I may look into that at some time.

Re: the Bullbar that I mentioned. If it goes for lights on the roof than is must apply to bullbars as well as any modification or alteration that we make to our car. Within reason though because I am not talking about someone just painting a car.

Cheers Time for bed. I am stuffed.

Phil

Phil

The original question by the OP was about running the cable, so the correct answer was how to run the cable to the lights.

I am no expert but i would guess that once the car has been originally licneced modifications are governed by state regs.

Modifications being anything that changes from the original condition (i.e as set out in the ADR's when it was first registered). States have detailed rules about modifications, some need approval and some dont't.

I dont know about bullbars I know there is Aust Stds, but you would need to look to where they are detailed, either ADR's or State Regs

Alan

I am yet to have a good look at the first few pages of the ADR. Aren't state regulations now governed by the ADRs! Round and round we go. I was wondering where accessories modifications and equipment, which weren't available at manufacture, come into this. I think that is where the ADR is required. Yet to be convinced either way.

Regarding the wiring: I installed an antenna in the roof of the Kingswood and got a radio installer to drill the hole. If anything went wrong then it was his insurance not me that paid for the repairs and new lining. I would get the hole near a leg of the roof rack and run the wires down the "A" pillar. Where he goes from there depends on where the switch, a fuse and a relay sits.

In my case the wires would then go behind the dash to the center console where I have a bunch of illuminated (different colours) Hershey switches for 4WD accessories. Each switch is connected to a separate fuse in a new fuse panel that I put under the bonnet, for 4WD stuff only. The fuse panel also three 60 amp relays ready for lights, lockers etc. But the OP may want to do it differently. I did it this way because I hate unprofessional, uncovered and messy wiring. Even the console wiring is laced and covered with spiral wrap and with a good quality multi core connector so that it can easily be removed. I have only used three of the switches so far. One for fog lights, one for the compressor and one for the Redarc battery isolator.

Phil