Truck drivers view of a caravan rollover

Submitted: Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:05
ThreadID: 106672 Views:5690 Replies:14 FollowUps:55
This Thread has been Archived
How quick and easy it is to come a gutsa in a bit way.

Best not read the comments in the comments column if easily offended.

http://youtu.be/9SsSZVTanqQ

Shane
Back Expand Un-Read 2 Moderator

Reply By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:24

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:24
One of the reasons I don’t pull my van at over 90kph.
If I get a wobble I apply the van brakes without engaging the 4WDs brakes, until all is stable.
I wouldn’t be releasing them as he did.
But it’s easy for me to say this in hindsight, as all circumstances can’t be fully evaluated from a video.
AnswerID: 528202

Follow Up By: scandal - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:31

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:31
The wind sheer from the front of the truck caught him out I'd say, he may of panicked and jabbed the brakes making the wobble totally uncontrollable, like you say, much easier in hindsight
0
FollowupID: 810644

Follow Up By: John and Regina M - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:39

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:39
If you get a wobble apply van brakes only only AND accelerate. Straightens the rig out 90% of the time. And even then it's provided your attention is not compromised and your reflexes are spot on.

Can't imagine anyone over 60 (arbitrary age but possible much lower) can claim those 2 requisites actually.

Unfortunate, but many towing trailers nowadays should not be on the road.

There should be strict licensing to tow anything larger than a garden trailer.

0
FollowupID: 810646

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:10

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:10
Thanks for the advice John and Regina.
Gee at 68 I guess I’m past it – maybe I should hand in my license.
1
FollowupID: 810648

Follow Up By: Dingojim - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:33

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:33
John and Regina M if I was the easily upset type I would fire up over your assumption that anyone over 60 is incapable of whatever you think they are incapable of. I am nudging 70 and drive a 8500kg M/h towing 2600kg trailer and I don't have tickets on myself but will back myself as to driving ability. I am fortunate in that I was taught how to drive before all the modern driver aids, Auto gearboxes, hydraulic brakes, cruise control, etc., etc. were even thought of. I recently had my first insurance claim in 54 years courtesy of a dopey roo and the only traffic infringement notice I ever received was in 1961 and cost me 30 shillings. Having waved my own flag I will agree with you that there are drivers across ALL age groups who leave a lot to be desired, not just the mature aged. Perhaps a licence to tow anything over 1 tonne would be a positive step, but shudder at the thought of more rules and regulations, and maybe make our roads a little safer. As for reaction times, yes, it is a scientifically proven fact that reflexes slow after reaching 40 years but good, thinking drivers factor this in at all times when driving and make the necessary allowances. Just because we're on the Aged Pension doesn't always mean we're old dodderers and always remember we got here safely and you have yet to achieve that mark. Cheers.
2
FollowupID: 810652

Follow Up By: baz&pud (tassie) - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:50

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:50
Hey Dingojim
I'm with you, don't know how old John and Regina M are but seems they know it all.
Then again there are young ones who shouldn't be on the road at all, why are we old farts bi==picked on all the time.
baz
Go caravaning, life is so much shorter than death.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Position  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 810654

Follow Up By: John and Regina M - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:51

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:51
Read the post again. Nowhere did I say at a particular age you're past it, or incapable.

I said 'Can't imagine anyone over 60 (arbitrary age but possible much lower) can claim those 2 requisites actually.' I was referring to spot on reflexes and uncompromised attention.

The fact that you've fired up shows you're not paying attention to what has been said.

My Grandfather used to say 'if I had a penny for every man I've heard say he's a good driver I'd be a rich man' so perhaps the old adage 'never been in an accident but caused a few' holds true as well.

We're all experts in our underpants but put under pressure and look out. That experience and fanastic driving record counts for nought.

And if red tape saves that family of 4 about to be cleaned up by a sideways car and caravan sliding down the road then no argument from me. If that truck in the video had not been able to stop? If another truck/car was coming the other way?


0
FollowupID: 810655

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:01

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:01
How did you guess red tape was going to save him or he was over 60?
Having a bad hair day are we John?
0
FollowupID: 810658

Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:11

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:11
It's okay Dennis, I'll be 68 in a few months. We can go to the Transport Dept together, and hand in the freedom ticket.

Yeah, I thought I was doing okay too. Currently drive 5.2K clicks/week, of that 4.4K are in 'B' triples or quads. Looks like I've been fooling myself.

Time to get out the plaid slippers and see if the local 60's and Better ladies will let me play bingo with them.

Bloody hell, I'm shattered.....
Bob.

Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 810660

Follow Up By: Member - VickiW - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:21

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:21
John & Regina don't try to talk yourself out of your stupid comment now. Too late.

I am easily the safe driving side of 60 (using your measure) but have seen enough to understand that experience and an active interest in driving techniques goes a long long way. That experience, more than "quick reflexes", will result in someone instinctively taking the appropriate corrective action. Quick reflexes without that experience can easily get someone killed.
0
FollowupID: 810664

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:24

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:24
Yep Bob Y – for oldies like us, it’s all over Redrover,
Admitting to driving those big rigs at your age would scare the daylights out of John. That is assuming he knows what a B Triple is, of course.
0
FollowupID: 810666

Follow Up By: Ross M - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:27

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:27
Dunno about Regina but Honest John is around 54 to 56 years calculated by prior revelations so has the reflexes of a cat.
1
FollowupID: 810669

Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:44

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:44
Ross,

That's gotta be your best one ever!

Bob.

Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

1
FollowupID: 810674

Follow Up By: Slow one - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:55

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:55
John,
probably should check his advise on applying brakes and then accelerating to stop snaking or wobbles.

If your caravan begins to sway or snake, remain calm and avoid the urge to apply the towing vehicle’s brakes. Don’t try to steer out of the swaying / snaking. Alternatively hold the vehicle steady and try to stay in the lane. Gently apply the caravan’s electric brakes using the manual control in the tow vehicle. Otherwise, where conditions permit, continue at a steady speed or accelerate slightly until the sway stops.

Then again I am well over 60.
0
FollowupID: 810675

Follow Up By: SDG - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 21:08

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 21:08
I'm only mid 40's, and my reflexes are no where like they use to be. Use to be quick enough to catch snakes. Most likely they will catch me now. I bet some of you older, wiser ones would out do me. But at the same time, there will be times I could out do you. We all have our weaknesses, and our strengths. They will all be different to the one sitting next to you. You will be the one to know whether you are capable of driving or not, and if you need to hand in your licence.
0
FollowupID: 810677

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 23:24

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 23:24
Fact is a large portion of people towing caravans are not well trained and experienced drivers.....even before they hitch up a caravan.

At least half of the drivers on the road would be incapable of controlling a vehicle in a straight forward slide on its own.

There are people out there who no matter how much training and practice ( that they don't get anyway) would be mentally incapable of pushing an accelerator when in any sort of trouble.
Most will either panic and not have any reasnable reaction or hit the brakes when presented with any sort of handling problem.

Reflexes are no damn good if you do not already have a learned, programmed reaction.

Reflexes are also no damn good when you are caught unprepared.

There is a man who if he is ready and in good form, can catch an arrow in mid flight....fire an arrow at him when his mind is occupied elsewhere and he would probaly know nothing of it.

Cheers
0
FollowupID: 810684

Follow Up By: Ross M - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:46

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:46
Bantam
With fast reflexes the unprogrammed mind/brain can can panic much earlier and faster in circumstances like this one.
1
FollowupID: 810707

Follow Up By: John and Regina M - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:01

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:01
Slowone...and others
Pay attention. That's what it's about. I said 'apply van brakes only only AND accelerate'.

Read 'van brakes'.

But some other good comments. Paying attention and good reflexes count for nothing if you don't know what to do. Hence my comment about red tape. Call it training and licencing. And perhaps inspections, regularly. Medicals, yes them as well.

So yes, red tape, good reflexes and paying attention could make a lot of difference.
1
FollowupID: 810713

Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:01

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:01
John,
If you don't mind me asking can you explain what an only only is.



0
FollowupID: 810717

Follow Up By: John and Regina M - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:32

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:32
Certainly slowone.
In my last post it is a content within a quote.
In my original post it is a misprint.

So is that the best you can do?
0
FollowupID: 810720

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 13:02

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 13:02
Slowy, it's sort of like "To be sure, to be sure"! (I think) LOL

But then again, I'm over the apparent age limit for any acceptable mental capacity. At least according to John (or is it Regina?) Not LOL.
Cheers
Allan

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 810721

Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 16:54

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 16:54
John,
Strange answer. I asked a simple question, but no part of the answer has to be "So is that the best you can do?'

IF you read my answer it is formed correctly on how to try and control a problem with an out of control van. It gives a complete view of what to do not just apply brake and accelerate, which can mean anything from braking hard to accelerating hard.

The mention of age stirred me up, as I still jump into the odd semi for a mate and run a bit of freight around the country, somehow staying in one piece with my ageing years.

Enough said, you have an opinion and I have mine.


0
FollowupID: 810737

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 17:33

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 17:33
I own a big wobbly – 3 tonne and 7 metres long
The generic answer of accelerate in all situations is wrong and will increase the problem in some situations.
Particularly at speeds around 100 ks an hour and above for a long heavy van with centrally located wheels – at this stage acceleration only plays a mild part in the straightening exercise for most. Clamping on the rear brakes, without the towing vehicle brakes engaged has a better effect. Especially if you set them up correctly – I do this with my electric controller but I am not sure if other automatic controllers can be set to exclude their inertia type pendulum mode.
I’ve practiced the manoeuvre constantly and it becomes second nature after a while – you don’t even need to think about it as it becomes an automatic reaction as soon as a minor wobble starts up.
0
FollowupID: 810747

Follow Up By: Tjukayirla Roadhouse - Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 12:39

Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 12:39
"Yep Bob Y – for oldies like us, it’s all over Redrover,
Admitting to driving those big rigs at your age would scare the daylights out of John. That is assuming he knows what a B Triple is, of course."

Do you know what one is Dennis?
I'd take bets that the vehicle you are thinking of would be a triple road train, not a B triple.. lol
Just to stir it up a bit


Cheers
Al
0
FollowupID: 810910

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 13:40

Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 13:40
Duh Al
Yep know the difference, encountered lots of both varieties in my travels - especially up around the Pilbara.
A B Triple or a 3 trailer road train are both big units and need a fair bit of care to get past, with a large caravan.
0
FollowupID: 810914

Follow Up By: Slow one - Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 19:02

Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 19:02
Dennis,
you missed the bloke that got pinged for pulling 5 trailers near Kajabbi Qld a few years back. Coppers weren't impressed at all.
0
FollowupID: 810934

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 20:36

Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 20:36
Obviously he was under 60, or his reflexes wouldn’t have been good enough to handle it.
0
FollowupID: 810945

Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:31

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:31
There seems to be a trend to tow bigger van with little SUVs. Maybe this needs looking at along with the towing capacities! There is big difference between towing a two tonne box trailer and a two tonne full sized van. You also need to know what you are doing! Michael
Patrol 4.2TDi 2003

Retired 2016 and now Out and About!

There's time to rest when you're dead,
Get out and do something instead!

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

AnswerID: 528204

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:04

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:04
Yes the tow limits on some of these lightweight vehicles seems ridiculous
It also is crazy that anyone can just buy a large van or boat and tow it without any form of tuition or guidance
0
FollowupID: 810659

Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:14

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:14
Yes I think it’s dangerous to have the towing vehicle lighter than the caravan.
0
FollowupID: 810662

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 22:58

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 22:58
Not so long ago, it was illegal to tow more than the vehicles weight with a pasenger car...and the towing capacities of the period reflect this.

From what i understand...the laws of phsyics have not changed.

Cheers
0
FollowupID: 810683

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 06:05

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 06:05
Bantam but the laws of marketing to sell vehicles has ;/
0
FollowupID: 810690

Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:56

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:56
Bantam , you are correct, the laden weight of the towed trailer/van, must not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle. I remember that from the seventies when I had a van! Michael
Patrol 4.2TDi 2003

Retired 2016 and now Out and About!

There's time to rest when you're dead,
Get out and do something instead!

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 810698

Follow Up By: Member - kev.h - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:12

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:12
your right Bantam the laws of physics remain the same but your statement "Not so long ago, it was illegal to tow more than the vehicles weight with a passenger car...and the towing capacities of the period reflect this. "was based on over-ride brakes which meant the tow vehicle HAD to be heavier than the trailer then some smart marketing Guru convinced the authorities that electric brakes fixes all that so they could sell bigger vans to people with smaller tow vehicles its all about profit
there is no way I would tow a 3 tonne load with a 2 tonne tow vehicle just don't make sense
Just my opinion
Kev
0
FollowupID: 810704

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 22:34

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 22:34
kev mate inertia controlled electric brakes have been arround since the early eighties......simple electric brakes longer

Before that, there was vacuum brakes.....A friend of my parents had vacuum brakes on their caravan back in the 60's.

We still have over riding brakes and they are perfectly legal on trailers under 2 tonnes....AND there are plenty of them arround.

And this change ( towing over vehicle mass) is fairly recent.....I cant track it exactly...but from memory....the first draft of national trailer regulations stated that the trailer could not be heavier than the tow veicle if there was not a manufacturers towing capacity.

We now have quite a few vehicles that weigh under 2 tonnes and have 3.5 tonne published towing capacities.

Which BTW is the maximum you can tow on a 50mm ball.....so in practical terms maxed out for normal people.

Its just rediculous.

cheers
0
FollowupID: 810778

Reply By: Member - John - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:35

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 18:35
Forgetting that driver didn't know what to do in the circumstances, watching the dynamics in play as the van rolls, maybe a good reason for off road hitch to be used, allowing the car to stay on it's wheels?????
John and Jan

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Position  Send Message

AnswerID: 528205

Follow Up By: Ross M - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:23

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 19:23
The off road hitch may help but the rear wheels of the tow vehicle will still be lifted off the ground as the van rolls but the tow may stay upright.

Alko sway control may have pulled it straight as the side vacuum and then the bow pressure wave hit causing the initial sway.
0
FollowupID: 810650

Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:14

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:14
At the second brake application, the car's future was sealed. The 'van just made it a dead certainty.

Bob.

Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 810661

Follow Up By: Ross M - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:37

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:37
Bob Y
Totally agree.
Most of the population of drivers instinctively apply the brakes when the brain is out of it's depth of experience. An unprogrammed computer does nothing, or if the programme doesn't fit the inputs then wrong stuff happens.
Humans are no different.

There is no system in Australia which teaches the masses of drivers and programmes their brains so they WON"T apply brakes at the wrong time, so they do, and often crash as a result.
0
FollowupID: 810672

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 23:31

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 23:31
I doubt very much that the type of hitch would have any influence in this situation.

The tow vehicle was pulled off balance by the out of controll trailer.

look closely.....the tow vehicle was not twisted over by the hitch.

The tow vehicle was yanked off its wheels.

Most of our modern ball hitches are designed to fail under heavy twisting moments.....even the balls themselves are fundamentally weak.
If the coupleing failed, the safety chain......if it and the shackle was compliant ( the shackles used mostly are not) would have remaned attached and that would have been strong enough to yank the tow vehicle off its wheels.

One thing that WOULD have improved the situation considerably would have been adequate shockabsorbers on the trailer....most have none.

cheers
0
FollowupID: 810685

Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:51

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 20:51
Both hands on the wheel and gently accelerate first and foremost.
If you can then apply trailer brakes only and gently.

Anybody disagree with this?

VKS737 - Mobile 6352 (Selcall 6352)

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Position  Send Message
Classifieds: Water Tank 55 Litre

AnswerID: 528215

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 21:28

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 21:28
Not me mate, just saw what John and Regina copped...lol

Most of the time the brake light switch will activate before any vehicle service brake actuation takes place. Usually the caravan brake controller is activated by that switch with progressively more braking action being initiated by the controller sensing deceleration.
If you haven't practised finding the manual over ride control as part of your driver familiarisation with your vehicle maybe try a very gentle touch on the brake pedal. Enough to activate the brake lights and van brakes but not the tow vehicle service brakes.
Might take a few practice runs to get it right but better than trying to find the manual over ride or applying a light touch to the brakes while all hell is breaking out around you.

Cheers Pop
1
FollowupID: 810678

Follow Up By: Ross M - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:51

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:51
I don't think Regina is involved at all. She may be knitting somewhere and oblivious to the whole thing.
1
FollowupID: 810709

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:59

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:59
You are right Pop, but the manual override applies a reasonable braking force. Would a light touch on the brakes (sufficient to activate the brake lights and hence the electronic brakes) provide sufficient braking force to correct this situation? Noting that the deceleration sensor would not pick up much if you were also accelerating?

I don't tow a van (camper trailer), but this discussion makes me wonder about the location of my controller which is reasonably well tucked away. I know where the manual override is and can easily activate it, but fast enough to correct a problem like this one? I don't know. Perhaps there is a case for some kind of remote (easily accessible) override switch for panic situations? Would still need knowledge and practice, but better than fiddling under the dash to find the override when you might need it.

Cheers,

Matt.
0
FollowupID: 810710

Follow Up By: gbc - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 10:02

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 10:02
If you have trailer sway control on your tow vehicle it wont let you accelerate.
If that was my ranger, the brakes would have automatically taken control way back when I was level with the cab of the truck and straightened it all out.
I'd have had to wait until the car gave power back to me and the overtake would most probably have been aborted, but that's about all that would have happened. You drive/tow smoothly and all is well. You pull out just a little too harshly when towing a 3.3t boat to overtake a tractor and the little man inside the dash lets you know all about what he thinks of your manoeuvre....
Electric gizmos are getting quite amazing, and trailer sway control would be right up there on my list of priorities in any vehicle I planned to tow a van with these days.
Unfortunately it sounds like a lot of members here don't have it.
0
FollowupID: 810711

Follow Up By: awill4x4 - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 23:19

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 23:19
gbc, don't assume your vehicles trailer sway control is going to save you.
One of the posters on the caravanners forum had trailer sway control on his 2013/2014 Jeep and it didn't save him from his van and car turning turtle recently.
There's an interesting video in the states of a company introducing a new electronic sway control for trailers/vans with a lot of testing done both using the vehicle trailer sway control and the trailer mounted system and using the vehicle system only.
With the vehicle system only it was an ugly scenario compared to the trailer mounted system.
With all the testing it was decided that the trailer mounted sway control was the best choice for arresting sway.
The video can be viewed here Tuson trailer sway control and although it's 28 mins long it gives a very good view of a new sway control product that is soon to be available at a hopefully cheaper price then AlKo's ESC trailer sway control.
Regards Andrew.
0
FollowupID: 810786

Reply By: Bob Y. - Qld - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 22:15

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 22:15
Even though it's almost 2 years ago, can't help feeling for the occupants of that car, especially the passenger/s. Scary moment, with the potential for some serious injury.

Would've upset the truckie's day too. Poking along, probably on time, and suddenly he's got a duty of care on his hands, and a wait for emergency services. Not exactly in the suburbs either.

Bob.

Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

AnswerID: 528225

Reply By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 23:11

Wednesday, Mar 12, 2014 at 23:11
The vehicle handling issues aside.

This video shows clearly what could possibly happen to a large number of the caravans on the road.

The problem is that caravan design has for the most part not progressed at all since the 50's.

We are still towing a format ( they dont call it a pig trailer for nuthin') that is well known as unstable in heavy transport.

We persist in building caravans that are as cheap as that possibly can be in the chasis and suspension depratment.

IN particular, most caravans and trailers do not have shock absorbers or any form of roll management (sway bars).

AND worst of all, all too often salesmen sell and people want to buy, packages that push the limits of the towing vehicles capacity.

Regardless of price paid, most caravans are crude, fundamentally unstable and too large for the vehicle towing.

cheers
AnswerID: 528227

Reply By: Member - blackbird1937 - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 02:10

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 02:10
A month ago a bloke said to me any trailer that is big enough for brakes, the driver should have a upgraded license. Too many people have trailers, big caravans or boats and no experience. At one stage in the early 60s I was driving a small semi-trailer of 16 feet but I still had to have an articulated license, that was after driving low-loaders carting bulldozers. I now see many people who tow vans much longer than that on normal car licenses. You only have to see some drivers trying to reverse vans into camp spots to see that they might be able to tow vans but they cannot back them. I know a woman that said it does not worry her towing a van at 110 to 120 kms per hour but I have seen that she cannot back her own vehicle into a carport. I have been rounded up many times by P platers driving at 110 to 120 kms per hour towing boats in a 100 zone.
AnswerID: 528232

Follow Up By: Member - Peter M (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:00

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:00
It seems to me that the questions that should be asked are:
why did they have to overtake the truck at all?
Why didn't they pull over and wait awhile to let the truck get ahead of them?
Did they talk on the radio to the truckie about the need to overtake?

I'm sad to say I'm 73 and have been towing my caravan behind my Patrol for 4.5 yrs and prior to that travelled approximately 100,000 kms per year mostly on country roads, so going on some of the comments I don't know anything and I'm a dangereous road user. Well so be it BUT in 4.5 years towing I haven't had the need to overtake a truck except on dual lane highways when the truck is speed restricted, for whatever reason.
RULE OF THE ROAD "DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS OF THE ROAD AND YOUR VEHICLE" not to what you think MIGHT be safe.
Here endeth todays lesson
Stay well and stay sfe
PeterM (Qld)
1
FollowupID: 810692

Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:28

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:28
"RULE OF THE ROAD "DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS OF THE ROAD AND YOUR VEHICLE" not to what you think MIGHT be safe."

Peter the problem with this statement is that I don't doubt that the driver of this vehicle thought he was doing just that. It is the lack of training and experience that often creates these issues ( impatience is also a factor )
0
FollowupID: 810694

Follow Up By: Member - bbuzz (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:52

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:52
I see too many vehicle and van combinations doing 110 kmh wherever possible; even on single lane roads.

I am called an old fart because I travel at 90 kmh max and therefore seldom have a need to overtake anything! Certainly not a B double/triple.

My rig is 2008 diesel Prado and a 4.4 m Windsor Rapid, matched weight and towing wise and probably capable of quicker speeds. Just don't feel safe doing that.

When I stand next to a V8 Sahara and a 24ft off road rig and see how big it is, I wonder how anyone can feel in control at 110kmh.

One guy, with the above rig, I spoke to at Banka Banka, after he had passed me before at 110kmh, said his auto wouldn't change into 6th gear unless he drove it that fast! Knows his vehicle well.......

bill
Bill B

Member
My Profile  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 810697

Reply By: bigcol - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:56

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 08:56
It was all over red rover the moment he lifted off the loud pedal.

If he kept the right foot into it, it would have just kept pulling it straight.
But then again towing with a gutless Subaru it probably didn't have enough go left to do it.

AnswerID: 528235

Follow Up By: bigcol - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:00

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:00
Looking at the video again you'd nearly have to say that van would have been right on the legal limit for a single axle.
Good chance that wouldn't have happened if it had a dual axle.
0
FollowupID: 810700

Follow Up By: gbc - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 10:12

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 10:12
If it was the 3.6 outback I reckon your initial thoughts would have been right - it might well have pulled the van back straight in the clear air. The driver did pretty much 100% the wrong thing and made a marginally saveable situation into a fait accompli.
Single axles also need plenty of air in their tyre to keep them on the straight and narrow - no one has mentioned that yet either.
0
FollowupID: 810712

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 22:59

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 22:59
I think it is a fair comment that a tandem axle rig under the trailer would have been more stable....but by how much.

Tandem axle rigs still suffer from the same issues as every other caravan.
That is generally cheap and nasty suspension, a single axle group in the middle of the trailer, high center of gravity and poor weight distribution.

As for tyre pressure.
OH hell yeh.....possibly the single cheapest handling improvement for any vehicle is a tyre pressure appropriate for the load and driving situation.

Some vehicles and combinations are very intolerant of the wrong tyre pressures.

Tyre selection is another issue.......most pasenger radials squirm badly when heavily loaded.....even some of the light truck tyres squirm too much for my likeing.

One of my brothers clients complained, that the boys where having trouble keeping a particular traier on the road. A reasonably large trailer often towed by utes and vans

He got this bloke to load the rig up, and took him for a drive...first stop..the service station.....where he pumped the tyres up.

It was a changed rig.

Back at the yard he procedded to tell this bloke some truths.....firtsly the trailer was too heavy for what was towing it...secondly the tow vehicles and the trailer all had pasenger radials on them, and the tyre pressures where way too low..
"If ya must keep towing this thing with these vehicles, get em onto light truck tyres and pump the tyres up properly".

cheers
0
FollowupID: 810784

Reply By: hooks - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:55

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:55
In this video is it showing the effects of the double pendulum action? I understand that at a certain high speed once this situation occurs it can not be controlled as the action and movements of the trailer are unpredictable. However if this occurs when driving, I agree with those that stress to avoid applying the vehicle brakes, but it would require a great deal of actual practical experience and training not react instantly and apply them. In this regard the need for specific driver training when towing these larger rigs seems necessary and an ordinary car licence perhaps should be endorsed to permit it.
AnswerID: 528236

Reply By: Member - TowBall - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 13:32

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 13:32
Hi Guys - Maybe this film could be made compulsory viewing before you buy a van, also reading this forum... All I can say is "Please Lord dont let me PANIC when this happens to me"..
AnswerID: 528243

Follow Up By: Ross M - Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 20:17

Thursday, Mar 13, 2014 at 20:17
Your towball has crashed, it is lying on it's side already.
Working towballs stand erect and ready.
0
FollowupID: 810767

Follow Up By: Member - TowBall - Sunday, Mar 16, 2014 at 14:15

Sunday, Mar 16, 2014 at 14:15
Sorry Ross M - But I'm over 60, so I guess I'm past it....... Can't get Towball to stand up, no matter what I do !!!!!!!!
0
FollowupID: 811010

Reply By: Member - ironJosh - Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 07:26

Saturday, Mar 15, 2014 at 07:26
When I was 17 and had my license for about 6 months I had an elderly man pull out in front of me. Instinctively I applied the brakes, my beautiful V8 LX Torana pulled to one side as the left hand brakes on the car locked up and the right hand didn't. I hit a car that had nothing to do with the incident. The only damage to the elderly mans car was a scratch on his bumper from where my rear bumper bar just touched. When the cops arrived they let the elderly man go as it "wasn't his fault". Apparently I should have run right into the side of his car and taken him and his wife out. Then it would have been his fault, and I wouldn't have had to come up with $7000. (I have had a major problem with the justice system ever since.) Well, the owner of the car I hit was luckily very understanding and an old Holden lover, so he kindly paid the excess on his vehicle. I learned a valuable lesson this day. Always be prepared.

Since then I play over different situations through my mind. What could happen and what I would do to properly resolve the situation. The more you play it over in your mind, the more it will be an instinct when it happens to you. It has saved me a couple of times since then. Especially controlled braking in a situation you need to stop without an abs enabled vehicle.

People that drive trailers over 2 tonne on the highway should have done a defensive driving course and then (and only then) should they be able to drive over 60 on the highway with a 2 tonne trailer.

Josh
AnswerID: 528365

Reply By: The Bantam - Sunday, Mar 16, 2014 at 09:59

Sunday, Mar 16, 2014 at 09:59
Here is another example of an all too similar situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no9i2MgKKFI


Remember...fundametally unstable.

cheers
AnswerID: 528458

Reply By: Sigmund - Sunday, Mar 16, 2014 at 14:18

Sunday, Mar 16, 2014 at 14:18
John and Regina raised an important issue about ageing and driving. Here's a checklist:click

Older drivers are more likely to be involved in crashes than younger ones (click) but they are also more likely to self-regulate and take fewer risks.

Overtaking with a van is not an everyday driving skill and as posted we don't have to demonstrate it to get a license and most drivers would get little practice doing it in order to learn.

I favour a graduated license testing system and an extension of the license endorsement system. Even currently, you can get a license without having to demonstrate simple survival skills like going through a suddenly arisen narrowing of road space or recovering from a slide.




AnswerID: 528480

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Mar 16, 2014 at 18:49

Sunday, Mar 16, 2014 at 18:49
Sigmund, I read your linked document but nowhere could I find your quote of "Older drivers are more likely to be involved in crashes than younger ones". Could you point me to it please?

In point of fact, the study focused not on the number of crashes per age range but on the severity of injury per age range, with the conclusion of greater injury with increased age being possibly due to frailty.

That Monash University Report contained the following graph.
It presents 'Serious Casualty crashes per billion km." Note that it is not simply the number of crashes but those crashes that gave rise to "serious casualty" as shown by the blue curve. Now look at the yellow curve which has been "adjusted for vulnerability", i.e. compensated to remove the factor of frailty. Now you will note that in fact many more crashes occurred below the driver age of 20-24 than above 80+.



Cheers
Allan

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 811036

Follow Up By: get outmore - Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 15:33

Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 15:33
MMM maybe - but looks more a reflection to me of how older people are less likely to drive

much like the 0-19 age group (bearing in mind many have been driving for 3 years by the time there 19 but as with older drivers less likely to be doing alot of ks)

nevertheless I agree bashing older drivers as more likely to crash is piontless

theres no question some people will start suffering cateracts alzeimers etc making them dangerous. I know a guy who is suffering alzeimers and still drives his wife around (she cant drive)
more needs to be done in these sorts of cases but in the main older drivers seem to do just fine - maybe a bit slower etc but then the roads arnt only there for the supposed elite drivers that are perfect but everyone from cyclists to road trains.

Just because the old guy in front of you didnt turn into the highway and floor it making that tiny gap in the traffick you would have made - doesnt mean they should be off the road
0
FollowupID: 811106

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 16:34

Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 16:34
Nah get outmore, the assesment is made taking into account the actual km driven for each age group, as it says "Crashes per Billion km". so the situation of both the extremes of older and younger drivers actually driving less km is taken into account.
Also if you carefully read the report you will find that the adjustment made to produce the yellow curve is for "vulnerability" allowing for the frailty of older drivers being more likely to sustain "serious casualty injuries' because of their more fragile bodily condition. Note that the blue and yellow curves are coincident for drivers below 25-29 showing that there was no vulnerability change in those younger years.

There are a lot of factors involved in the age or experience of drivers. In general, younger drivers have better reaction times but are less experienced and more reckless. Older have physical depreciation but are more experienced and cautious which tends to compensate.
Cheers
Allan

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 811111

Reply By: Brian Purdue - Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 14:59

Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 14:59
I seem to be with the majority. Being somewhat older we had to learn to DRIVE when we went for our licences, not how to pass a "driving test". Usually the local cop had seen us getting about in Dad's car or more likely in those days UTE and had a good idea of our ability in the first place.
AnswerID: 528546

Follow Up By: get outmore - Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 15:47

Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 15:47
bunkem...

kids these days have it far far harder than we did to get a license

they are taught to drive needing many hours of logbooks before getting a license. and back in the day while the driving instructers taught you how to drive - they also taught you how to pass the test

i suggest you go through the 6 steps of getting your licence on this site

http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/licensing/20663.asp

then think about how you were able to get your license in a wheaty packet in comparrison

more like this )
- second youturned 16 get Ls by doing a quick written test
- Hold Ls for 2 weeks
- drive with copper round town maybe doing a u turn on wide quite country roads and perhaps reverse into a driveway, finish by getting 3 gos at parrellel parking
- get P plates and display them for 12 months
- done

sorry but it irks me when crusty old farts my age claim licenses are too easy to get now when its clearly not true
0
FollowupID: 811107

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 17:22

Monday, Mar 17, 2014 at 17:22
I would have to agree with you GOM.

In my own case, I obtained a licence at age 16 after completing a written test which concerned itself with road rules only with no attention given to driving competence.
What made it acceptable then was that there was much less traffic and the vehicles we drove were very low powered. Added to that was a less assertive society at that time...... 'road rage' was unheard of.
Today I would believe the criteria for a licence is on driving competence as well as the rules, but the traffic is now faster and of higher density as well as being assertive if not downright aggressive.

Having rather easily obtained my licence I later went on to complete an Advanced Driver Training course and became a Rally Driver with CAMS accreditation. Although that was long ago the experience and lessons learned have stood me in good stead with no accidents and only one speed fine for 65kph 50 metres into a 60 zone! (attaining the quota I think).
I still have pretty good reactions but not as good as when younger so I compensate using added care.

Considering the consequences of accidents at highway speeds I would think it more appropriate that all drivers are required to undergo advanced training and tested for capability periodically including their bodily health and, if it were possible, for mental attitude! LOL

Cheers
Allan

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 811114

Sponsored Links

Popular Products (13)