D4D what's the risk

Submitted: Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 07:41
ThreadID: 107520 Views:5612 Replies:11 FollowUps:28
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So I've spent a load of time researching this model, that year within this budget etc about a range if potential vehicles to purchase. In all cases I've narrowed down to a vehicle that uses D4D injection. If you believe what you read there is a genuine risk of the injectors failing in the event of filling up with bad fuel and the main place that's going to happen is a 'remote' location.

Obviously people write about it when it goes wrong, I'm guessing not so much when it doesn't! I'm wondering if i do purchase a vehicle using D4D how great is the risk? Is it the 1 in a million chance, is it reasonably common in vehicles out of town, or should i avoid it all together.

Appreciate input in advance, especially from people using these vehicles off the beaten track
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Reply By: Member - Rosco from way back - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 08:13

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 08:13
From what you read it's not an uncommon event. However it's also not difficult to circumvent. Some use special filtering funnels. Some install an additional fuel filter as a first line of defence. Some say "She'll be right mate" ......... I expect they're the ones you read about.

I installed an additional filter with a water alarm which is spliced into the OEM alarm light and buzzer and feel reasonably comfortable with this as insurance.
The obvious first step is to, wherever possible, fill up at a high volume outlet. We have picked up dud fuel in the past from smaller outlets even in reasonably sized towns.

At the end of the day it is unreasonable and unlikely that the OEM filter/alarm is not up to the job, however additional precautions are good for insurance and peace of mind. I would expect the failures could be attributed to a lack of proper service e.g. ignoring any warnings or not having spare filters available.

Common rail diesels are virtually the go these days so you have to learn to live with the issue.
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Follow Up By: lj_eco - Monday, May 12, 2014 at 18:31

Monday, May 12, 2014 at 18:31
Thanks Rosco. Sound advice, especially high volume outlets. I like the sound of the additional fuel filter and alarm. Will talk to local deisel mechanic i presume? For gumbies (me) what is an OEM (apologies, quick google search didn't define!). Will be dealing with all this very soon, and 'living with it' :)
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Follow Up By: Member - Rosco from way back - Monday, May 12, 2014 at 18:41

Monday, May 12, 2014 at 18:41
Basically "OEM" as in original equipment manufacture (or something similar). Refers to bits and bobs that are part of and came as the original makers complete unit, as against after market add-ons.
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Reply By: Ross M - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 09:38

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 09:38
lj_eco
The term D4D is a Toyota alloted description. D4D looks impressive as a badge on a Toyota.
What you are talking about is Common Rail Diesel Injection systems.

You can fill up with contaminated fuel from anywhere and do not have to go outback to find it. Your local servo can accommodate you with dodgy fuel, you just don't know when.
So it happens in town and out of town.
In town there is just as many vehicles filled with petrol by the drivers as get crook fuel. But people are becoming aware. In another 10 years in may not happen much at all.

The original filters are adequate but possibly not the best you can have and are only one line of defence.
As Rosco mentioned, having an additional filter is increased insurance, as long as it catches water, dewaters the fuel of emulsified water ie unseen water and also stops contaminants like particles of solid matter.

Where there is only one line of defence, then a breach of that is more likely easily accomplished and I also believe most vehicles affected have only one.

The other issue which is so important, is often, the dealers DO NOT change the filters at service time and wait until the filter is borderline or already contaminated/blocked or water laden and that is when any alarm should happen. The dealers rely on you telling them IS a problem, when it should be serviced to AVOID a problem.

If that situation is reached then you are close to, or are at, the beginning of system failure. There is not many options then.

Cheers
Ross M
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:16

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:16
Ross

Very good information. Thank you.

You mention dealers do not change filters at service. I have only had my vehicle serviced twice and knowing of the problem I have asked them to change the filter. They have failed to do so and I have done it myself. (VW dealer in Darwin)

I know of quite a few people who have had problems with contaminated fuel and it can be a very expensive exercise. One local up here on his 200 series - $22,000.

The only problem with fitted an additional filter is that it voids your warranty, however your warranty does not cover problems caused by contaminated fuel - catch 22


Tjilpi


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Follow Up By: Member - Rosco from way back - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 15:05

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 15:05
Kum....

I don't think fitting an additional filter will void the warranty across the board, given that I have read on other forums wherein the additional filter has installed by the dealers.
Having said that, we all have come to expect something less than 100% from dealers per se, due in the main to the horror stories of their shifty and/or devil may care attitudes oft times reported
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 17:42

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 17:42
Rosco
You are correct about the shifty dealer activities.
If I was allowed to tell you about a Nissan dealer in NSW you would be shocked. Fair trading, RTA, Police, Insurance company, Credit Company are all totally dismayed at what he has done/doing. 3 vehicles involved so far.
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Reply By: desray (WA - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 09:49

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 09:49
And the seat/sealing washers leaking diesel into the sump /clogging the oil pick up with carbon and seized motors. Toyota did a recall for the rest of the world to fix this but not in Australia ??
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Follow Up By: Steve D1 - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 10:16

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 10:16
Our fuel quality here in Aus is bad enough that they were able to blame the fuel companies instead.

steve
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:07

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:07
The injector sealing washers has absolutely nothing to do with the diesel fuel and all about poor design/quality of the sealing washer supplied by Toyota.
There are so many diesel engines running around in Australia and many Australians have the notion our fuel is 3rd world or worse.
If that was the case most diesel vehicles in Australia would be parked for repair or repeat repair and not running at all. This is not happening and the fuel perhaps could be better but it isn't the problem.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:23

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:23
Ross shouldn't it read "supplied to Toyota"..... don't think Toyota made them and my guess is it would be Toyota lodging a claim against the washer manufacture.

And Australia has bad fuel quality...... yeap and I believe in the Easter Bunny.... LOL

Diesel cars are dropping like flies.... aren't they?
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 17:19

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 17:19
Quote by Steve
Our fuel quality here in Aus is bad enough that they were able to blame the fuel companies instead.

Fuel companies wont where the blame even if their fuel is contaminated. I have a friend whom is a professional 4wd enthusiast. He had proven the diesel he pumped into his 100 series from an outlet
east of Adelaide caused his engine to cease resulting in having to replace the engine.
That was over 2 years ago and he is still fighting it in court. His cost has now gone past the cost of replacing the engine.

little person vs big corporations...................good luck!
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 20:14

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 20:14
There are plenty of cases where the oil companies have paid for damage from substandard fuel
Best way to deal with this is to insure your vehicle with an insurance company that covers contaminated fuel and let them deal with the oil companies after covering your expenses
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Follow Up By: Member - Ivan (ACT) - Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 05:50

Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 05:50
Are there companies who will insure for this?
Cheers,

Ivan
2008 D4D Prado

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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 06:17

Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 06:17
Yes Ivan a number of the majors cover contaminated fuel and well worth checking to see if covered, I personally use 4WD Insurance brokers insurance
I also purchase my fuel via a credit card so that you have good documentary evidence of your fuel purchases should they be needed
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Reply By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:18

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:18
Don't believe all you read on the world wide web.....

D4D engines have been out since early 1999 and first introduced in Australia in 2005, what you have to remember is this injection system is in the Hilux, Hiace, Prado and Landcruiser 200 and 70 series, six vehicles that are high seller and sales leaders in their segment compared with anything else in any other manufacturers range.

If there was a concern for reliability you would here about it in the media and over the net..... it would be every where. (and for the knobs who are going to say it is everywhere)..... over 350000 D4D engined vehicles have been sold in Australia and millions overseas and in comparison there are only a hand full of complaints to be found on the world wide web.

Contaminated fuel will affect any common rail diesel and there are really no filters that will filter out 100% contaminates.

I am sure other manufactures have the same issue, it's just that they don't sell the numbers like Toyota so the problem isn't in your face or seems as common.

All manufactures have issues and Toyota are no different.

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Follow Up By: Sacred Cow - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:53

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:53
I have a D4D and do not have my head in the sand. The engines do fail by three main mechanisms:

(1) Contaminated diesel with water. This can be managed to some degree by being very careful where you buy your fuel. Try to get it at major truck stops. Also drain your water sedimenter regularly.

(2) On the earlier model D4Ds, the injectors had copper seats or sheets as Toyota call them. These can fail causing carbonisation of the oil by blow-by. This can be detected by looking at the oil strainer through the sump plug hole each oil change. It's best to replace these seats with the replacement non-copper type but it's a big job, labour-wise, costing several hundred dollars.

(3) Check the diagnostics via DLC port each month with Techstream costing about $30 to look at the injector characteristics. When an injector's compensation code exceeds +- 3.0 microlitres/stroke replace it. If you don't, you risk over-fuelling and a hole through a piston.

These checks are not arduous and will take the major concern out of owning a D4D engine.

Glenn
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 14:10

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 14:10
Hmmm,

Not a big problem, funny I thought Toyota service centers are now routinely examining the oil pickup screens on the Prado's to detect when the seals/sheets have have failed?

Baileys and other diesel specialists are indicating the seals and injectors should be treated as a consumable on these motors and should be replaced at no more than a 150000Kms.

Leigh

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 20:35

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 20:35
Didn't know all D4D were going to fail, we have 6 of them and non have caused us any problems and the same goes for the previous ones we have had.

Checking the injectors every month...... Please, but i suppose some annal people may think it's needed.

The issue with D4D's are known but are no way near an epidemic some may think...." If it was there would be a world wide recall of all D4D engined vehicles as it is emission related and all the governments of the world would be seeking answers and a recall.

All common rail injection systems can and do cause issues....... Toyota are not alone and if you think it's the injectors fault, Mitsubishi common rail runs Denso injectors and pump, the same manufacture Toyota uses for the D4D.... So why is it Toyota has a so called failure rate and Mitsubishi don't, might have something to do with the volume of Toyota's as compared to other brands.

Maybe Toyota owners are more vocal or getting on the band wagon or there are more owners on forums.

And Leigh regarding injector seals and injectors being a consumable..... There are a lot of vehicles that they are classed as consumables, many require all lines and seals to be replace at set intervals..... Including the famed HDJ100R.

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Reply By: Peter F9 - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 14:12

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 14:12
Hi all,

Its typically not the fuel that is the problem, it's the way it's stored. Many outback locations and farms (including our own), store diesel in tanks above ground. Hot days and cold nights leads to condensation inside the tank hence contaminating the fuel. Or in long buried underground tanks water leaks in via corrosion holes or the vent pipe.

We opted for a pre filter as added protection.

Cheers

Pete

AnswerID: 531473

Reply By: Razerback - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 16:30

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 16:30
From my research the earlier models were the ones that failed. The newer models have an improved Denso injector with a Diamond like tip. Having spoken to various Toyota service centres the incidents of injector failure seem to have reduced dramatically. The other thing you should remember that the replacement Denso injectors have dropped dramatically in price , in the early days you could pay $1000 per injector, the Hilux D4D injectors are as cheap as $300-350 so it is in my opinion the risk is not a factor like it used to be.
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Reply By: jacent - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 17:05

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 17:05
I have a 2012 d4d hilux and live in outback wa filled up all over the state with most remote places and no issues yet. My work (mining) thrash the living hell out of all the utes both v8 land cruiser hilux and prado's we have mostl underground locked into 4wd low screaming all day cos no one cares and they keep on going
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Reply By: Steve M1 (NSW) - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 20:03

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 20:03
Take a couple of weeks off work and have a look here:

http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?26809-Preventative-D4D-maintenance-measures

not much that isn't covered there - but to save a lot of time reading it all, a catch can looks like a good idea
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Follow Up By: Member - Rosco from way back - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 21:27

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 21:27
G'day Steve

I agree the catch can is a good idea ... for keeping the intercooler clean, but I'm not sure how it would have a positive impact on the fuel system. Not having a go at you cobber, just not sure of the association.
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Reply By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 22:53

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 22:53
The fact is these common rail diesels are nowhere near as tolerant of fuel contamination as the earlier mechanical pump diesels.

The old diesels you could throw significant quantities of petrol or other solvents in the tank and they would run fine and have a high probability of no ill effects.

Solvent or petrol contamination can not be filtered by any means.

Some of the common rail diesels are reported to be more sensitive than others to solvent or petrol contamination.

The older diesels would tolerate very small amounts of water passing in the fuel, but mostly had adequate water trap filters operating in a low pressure fuel line.

The common rail diesels are almost completly intolerant of water in the fuel and the the filtering and water traps ( in the view of many) are not adequate considering this intolerance.

One poster of another forum was furiuos......he had purchased a new small excavator, that had a near identical engine in to that in his near new ute......these two machines where similar in dollar value...but the excavator had a very comprehensive multistage filter..factory standard...his ute had what he and others consider a token effort filter.

As far as being a one in a million chance....if that was so there would be only 2 D4D hiluxes in brisbane that have had a common rail related fule system failure.

Well there is a bloke I know just arround the corner that has had a major fuel system over haul paid for by a fuel company...because toyota refuesed to take responsibility...he was fortunate..he baught all his fuel from the same company on a fuel card.

The D4D hiluxes DID have issues with their early injectors that they systematically tried to deny responsibility for.....my brothers best mate baught an early D4D hilux new and had fuel system issues quite early on....not disasterous but not running how it should.....at first the dealer tried to fob him off.....untill he made some phone calls and the dealer was informed who he was, his long term reputation as a mechanic and his long term relatioship with toyota as a mechanic.....the injectors where replaced at no cost......most do not have that sort of leverage.

It is the view of many that while Toyota have addressed the early...plainly substandard ...injector problems, their injectors are still not as robust as some of the others.

As for the thousands of vehicles out there having no problems at all........of course there are thousands out ther having no problems...because they have not been put in the situation where a failure may occur.

Even the dodgyest products you could find...the manufacturers will be able to point out that there are thousands of units out there "operating perfectly"...that can not be taken as proof that there is not a problem and the many failures did not occur.


There is a real problem that Common rail diesel is still a new technology......being offered for only less than 10 years in the volume market, makes it a new technology.

While some of the better manufacturers may have had the time, will and volume of units to perfect thier product others may not yet have been able to do so...in addition, the rest of the motoring world including the fuel suppliers may not have improved their game to permit the common rail diesel to be as reliable as it realy should be.

For my part I will be staying away from common rial for a while yet......I will continue to drive my crude old diesel burner for a while yet. And when I do replace it I will be very serioulsy considering a petrol motor.

The reasons for running a diesel are not as convincing as they where in the past.

Electronicaly injected petrol motors have been proven to be long term reliable, are more efficient and powerfull than they have ever been and their fuel systems are cheaper to repair and service.

cheers
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 21:07

Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 21:07
Hino, used common rail in the mid 90, Mercedes and a few others in a few year after and Toyota first started using it in 2000........ Not really new technology.

It nearly 20 years old in automotive and nearly 100 years old in heavy industries like rail and marine.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 22:22

Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 22:22
Common rail diesel fuel injection in the form we currently find it with its incredibly high injection pressures is a very new technology in automotive terms.

Common rail petrol fuel injection has been arround for a very long time...but that is a whole different story.

The critical matter with the current form of diesel common rial injection is these incredibly high pressures present at the injectors.

It is these very high pressures that allow the large power gains and reduction in emmissions, by permitting injecton timimg at late parts of the compression cycle.

It is these incredibly high pressures and the very narrow clearances that make common rail injection so vunerable to damage from contaminated fuel.


cheers
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 22:34

Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 22:34
What do you call new? My 10 year old Jeep with Merc engine is a CRD coming up towards 200,000kms....
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 23:18

Wednesday, Apr 30, 2014 at 23:18
As far as automotive technology, 10 years is new.

And merc have always been one of the leaders in diesel technology......don't expect some of the lesser brands or less diesel engine volume brands to be as well sorted as merc.

When you have over 300 000 on the original injectors tell me.

cheers
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, May 01, 2014 at 19:55

Thursday, May 01, 2014 at 19:55
Suposse some are stll trying to get their head around the new hi tech 60 series with the new hi tech 12HT........ It will never be reliable and they have too much power..... It's a time bomb waiting to go off.

I'll stick to my 55 series, atleast i can work on it myself!

Can't wait to read the posts on forums in another 40 years.

So The Bantam....... How many centres old does something have to be before it't not new technology and you accept it?

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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Thursday, May 01, 2014 at 20:48

Thursday, May 01, 2014 at 20:48
I think you might have meant the 3 litre Nissan there... :-)
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Thursday, May 01, 2014 at 22:38

Thursday, May 01, 2014 at 22:38
It will be a proven technology when it shows its self to be reliable.





when we do not have manufacturers bringing vehicles like the 3 liter diesel patrol and toyota with their injector problems to market.

When it is not a regular occurance that the product fails dramaticly due to relativly minor factors that realy can be expected...like a little water in the fuel or solvent contamination....or simply from overheating.

OH BTW..has anybody had to clean diesel bug out of a common rail fuel system.....one of my brotherinlaws got a bad dose of diesel bug in his navara......that took a bit of cleaning out.....but it did not require replacement of the pump or injectors......but that was an old style fuel system.

The thing is fuel contamination remains a reality in the diesel supply and not just in remote areas.

If you want to talk in tems of consumer law.....the product is not fit for purpose because it does not properly account for fuel quality.

It would be a start if they fitted a fuel filtration system that reflected the sensitivity of the injection system to contamination and the high probability of fuel contamination.




Then you have to account for certain manufacturers proven inability to refine their product and make it reliable.

Ford for example have been making cars since 1903...they still cant manage to make a door handle that is adequate for the purpose.

Stewart and Binny, applied for the first diesel ( they did not call it Diesel engine) patents way back in around 1890...and untill the common rail injection system the engine remained more or less the same with some minor changes.
Rudolph Diesel did not build his first prototype till 1893....it was more than 10 years till someone screwed a turbo to a diesel engine.

10 years is not very long in the history of motoring.

cheers
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Friday, May 02, 2014 at 10:58

Friday, May 02, 2014 at 10:58
QUOTE "If you want to talk in tems of consumer law.....the product is not fit for purpose because it does not properly account for fuel quality."

Consumer law only comes into force when something doesn't perform or conform to suit the standards.

All fuel companies would be supplying fuel at the acceptable quality and standard as documented in law, what happens after this is nothing to do with Toyota or the fuel company..... both parties have no control over this.

Bit like owning a Ferrari with big ultra light rims and them complaining under law that the rims are not designed to withstand the impact of corrugated dirt roads when traveling over 160kph for prolonged periods.

There is nothing wrong with the filtration systems of current vehicles as long as the vehicle is used and operated within the standards.

The filtering system is very good as long as the fuel supplied meets the standards in which it would. If the fuel doesn't meet the standards after it has be produced and delivered to the reseller/retailer them that's between the reseller/retailer and the consumer....not the vehicle manufacture or fuel producer.

It's the governments of the world who force manufactures to produce cleaner more fuel efficient vehicles that have to meet stringent targets.

The vehicle manufactures would be happy to still produce simple mechanical fuel injected turbo charged vehicles...... but they (the governments and people of this world) would not accept it.

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Friday, May 02, 2014 at 17:44

Friday, May 02, 2014 at 17:44
It's plain and obvious that the care companies don't care that there is a difference between what is specified as the fuel standard or what should be the quality of the fuel.....and the reality.

Because their legal people have determined that they will not be paying the bill.

They don't care that the consumer is inconvienienced at best, likely to bear a very large cost of a fuel system rebuild if they cant prove where they baught their fuel and at worst.....if they are traveling remote stranded with the very real risk of death.


If they did care they would be installing comprehensive fuel filtration as is found in the earth moving and heavy transport industry.

The product is not fit for purpose.


cheers
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Follow Up By: Alan S (WA) - Monday, May 12, 2014 at 22:19

Monday, May 12, 2014 at 22:19
While I agree that CRD diesels don't like dirty fuel, but at OC said they are designed to accept a standard defined quality of fuel.
To say that to accommodate or to be "fit for purpose" being for remote travel car manufacturers to make their product comply is plainly ridiculous.
You would be making 100% of car buyers pay for features that are required only by a small few.

As I have mentioned in a previous post, fuel is required to comply to standard, if what you buy is not at a standard it is the the fuel suppliers responsibility.
If you don't trust the supplier, the yes, spend your money to take precautions that suit your purpose. But you are wanting a third party totally unrelated to supplying you fuel to provide protection.

Get real.

Alan
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Follow Up By: Alan S (WA) - Monday, May 12, 2014 at 23:37

Monday, May 12, 2014 at 23:37
Bantam
There has been a couple of threads recently where you and others have criticised the quality provided by service providers. Now for some reason there is a lack of criticism of a provider of a product, and instead trying to place the blame on some one else.
In the context of the previous threads, it's like blaming the parts suppliers for the poor installation.
To be consistent you should start to consider the fuel supplier. How hard is it for a fuel station to install suitable delivery system, inc filters, and to supply a quality product.

Alan
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Reply By: bigcol - Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 23:44

Tuesday, Apr 29, 2014 at 23:44
Another way to avoid contamination is do not buy fuel at a garage when you see a tanker filling the in ground tanks.
The fuel goes in that fast that it stirs all the crap up in the bottom of the tanks and it takes awhile for it to settle.

Even new direct injected petrol engines can suffer from dirty fuel problems so best to buy from servos that aren't filling up at the same time as you
AnswerID: 531509

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Thursday, May 01, 2014 at 22:42

Thursday, May 01, 2014 at 22:42
Yeh but if you have a a problem with a fuel injected petrol motor its not going to cost you $8000 for a fuel system rebuild due to some minor contamination.

cheers
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Reply By: lj_eco - Monday, May 12, 2014 at 18:56

Monday, May 12, 2014 at 18:56
Good article on the subject i found recently

http://www.racq.com.au/motoring/cars/car_advice/car_fact_sheets/diesel_injector_cleaning
AnswerID: 532362

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