oil changes

Submitted: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 16:22
ThreadID: 107658 Views:2519 Replies:5 FollowUps:24
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in regard to ford ranger diesel 3,2 if the engine and filter oil is drained for more than 10 minutes,how do you reprime the pump,when you are out on the road doing your own oil changes and nowhere near a ford dealer,? how does the ford dealer do it?information on www.autodata.com.au about the 10 minutes but nothing said about how to reprime the pump,asked the racv today about it but could not help me ,advised have ford do the oil changes ,thanks for future answers barry
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Reply By: Member - Rosss - Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 16:45

Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 16:45
Don't rely on Ford too much either, I actually printed the leaflet from autodata and took it into the local ford dealer where I know one of the service blokes pretty well and he said that's funny, the first we've seen of it. he reckons they have not been told about it and have not had any trouble with leaving it for more than 10 minutes. Something he did tell me was they are having trouble with a heater hose under the battery tray, it rubs through and dumps all the water and the temp gauge doesn't work then and the engines are cooking, they have replaced a couple of engines under warranty and FORD won't do a recall to fix it.
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Follow Up By: Member - Allan L2 - Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:55

Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:55
Hi Rosss
"the first we've seen of it". Very strange! A mate of mine worked at a Ford Dealership for more many years & is still very friendly with workshop staff & the service manager working there. He told me of this issue about twelve months ago.
Cheers.
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Follow Up By: Member - Rosss - Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 20:02

Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 20:02
Just goes to show all ford dealers are not equal.
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Reply By: olcoolone - Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 16:59

Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 16:59
10 minutes to let the oil drain is a long time...... most of the oil will be drained in 2 - 3 minutes tops, why wait longer?

It might be a concern if your a retiree and you wander of for a cup of tea and a sandwich or you forget what you were doing....LOL

The 10 minutes is a flexible figure and would be conservative.

As for re-priming...... pressurise the sump with compressed air.

The problem is vane style pumps are not that great at sucking (negative pressure) and being a variable vane makes it worse, many vehicles use this style of pump.
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Follow Up By: SDG - Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 17:57

Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 17:57
I enjoy my cuppa while waiting for the oil to drain. Usually a good opportunity to visit the throne room as well. Whenever I start working on the car, every body else disappears so no interruptions..lol
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:01

Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:01
Pressurizing the sump will not work, as both sides of the vane pump will be at the same pressure and therefore no oil will flow anywhere.

The only way that could possibly work is to remove the oil pressure sender so the pressure from the strainer area MAY be enough pressure difference compared to the reverse airflow through the engine bearings and it MIGHT feed the oil to the pump.
The sender removal is therefore acting as a venting port.

A long shot I reckon.
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Follow Up By: pepper2 - Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:16

Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:16
So what do ford do when the vehicle is first filled from new ???
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Follow Up By: Axle - Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:20

Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:20
Sounds like it needs a non return valve between the strainer and pump, so nothing leaves the pump.


Axle.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 09:07

Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 09:07
Ross pressurising the sump came from a Australian trade journal I get and there was a far bit of discussion on different ways of doing it, pressurisation was offered as one of the solution.

From the publications.....

1)Fit a pressure pot oil primer to the oil pressure switch.

2)Remove the vent hose and using compressed air gently pressurise the engine internals which will push oil through the pickup.

http://www.tat.net.au/
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 20:17

Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 20:17
I mentioned administering oil into the oil pressure area somewhere.

However. unless the oil pressure sender is removed any pressurization of the sump area won't push oil up through the strainer.
Pressure will try and go through there but also through the engine bearings which aren't an airtight seal and so air will come in reverse flow into the oil gallery and oppose any trying to come up through the strainer. ie equalization of air pressure = no flow to pump. Whether it is a trade journal or not it sounds SUS to me.

Perhaps they did it with the oil filter OFF. then it is a different story, because there is a vent to atmosphere and that WILL allow a pressure differential to occur and oil should then flow from the filter housing.

Which ever way works it is going to be a bit messy.
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Reply By: Ross M - Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:19

Wednesday, May 07, 2014 at 19:19
I don't own a Ford.
My way of solving the problem would be to buy a similar oil filter and cut a hole in it so a fitting can be sikalexed into the side of the filter can. Elbow in the bottom if clearance is an issue.

Then connect a hose to the fitting and hold it above pump/filter level and then pour clean oil into the hose.
That will fill the inlet to the filter and also run back down into the vane pump exit port and into the pump chamber..
Some trial and error may be required but it should restore oil into the pump so the vanes have something to act on and therefore push out the vanes and will possibly begin pumping again.

Some oil may also seep through the filter and into the bearing feed galleries but that isn't the problem being solved.

Removal and replacement of the pump may then be averted.

MESSY, Yes, but who cares if it goes again.

Prior action would have to be made so the gear was there and carried with you if travelling. All in a sealed bag and open when needed. You may even be able to help someone else out of a tight spot.

If you have a vacuum cleaner, having it suck out air from the sender hole may also be enough. Haven't tried it but if the vacuum cleaner suddenly starts SMOKIN' then I would say you have primed the pump. Use a clear plastic tube to monitor oil flow

Because the pump vanes retract, THAT IS THE PROBLEM, the VAC should readily suck oil from the sump to the sender port quite easily..

AS I said, I haven't tried it but they are the two things I would do.
It is called problem solving.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 09:10

Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 09:10
Or just don't let it drain for more then 10 minutes..... simple.

Why reinvent the wheel when it's not needed.
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Reply By: honest - Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 20:24

Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 20:24
That's why i own a 1996 GQ patrol td42 soooo simple.
cheers honest
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Reply By: Nutta - Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 21:40

Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 21:40
Well outta my 47 years on this planet and a fair few of those doing oil changes I've never seen anything so ridiculous.

Is this fact with these cars? Has anyone had a problem with it?

If it is true i wouldn't go near one, never heard of anything so stupid.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 22:30

Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 22:30
Nutta
From reports, some from dealer mechanics, a few of these engines have been caught with no return of oil pressure.
Some oil changes done by a local garage have been taken to the closest dealer for "a new can of oil pressure".
Unfortunately in some cases, in an attempt to restore the pressure the engine was revved and bearing failure resulted.
Some have had their pump replaced by the dealers so it will then begin pumping again.

Some have tried a BUM UP position, not sure of that works.

Over the number sold there is only a small %age with problems or have had it after an oil drain.
As you indicated, it is worrying it can happen at all.
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Follow Up By: Alan S (WA) - Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 23:07

Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 23:07
The problem is easily avoided by not letting the oil drain to longer, just like avoiding othe problems.
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 23:37

Thursday, May 08, 2014 at 23:37
Alan S
It is only easily avoided if you know to void it as it is an unexpected thing.
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Follow Up By: disco driver - Friday, May 09, 2014 at 00:56

Friday, May 09, 2014 at 00:56
Talk about over discussing the problem.
Don't wait ten minutes, Simple.
The service mechanics want to get you in and out as quick as possible so as soon as the oil stops rushing out, Bang, the plug goes back in and the oil goes in too.
Then they move on to the next vehicle.

Just a point of interest:-
The 253, 307, 308, 327 Holden V8s all had to have the oil filter filled with oil before they were screwed back up.
Their oil pumps did not pick up oil otherwise.
Some managed to get oil pressure if the motor was revved up if the oil filter was not filled first, but not too many.
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Follow Up By: Member - Rosss - Friday, May 09, 2014 at 09:50

Friday, May 09, 2014 at 09:50
Don't know where you got the idea about Holden and Chev v8's, they where my bread and butter 20 years ago, rebuilt 100's of them and did oil changes on too many to remember, never filled an oil filter on any of them, mostly because with the holden's the oil filter layed on its side and most of the oil would run out before you could do it up, on a dry rebuild always put a smear of light grease in the oil pump for a bit of initial lubrication.

Cheers Ross.
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Follow Up By: Alan S (WA) - Friday, May 09, 2014 at 09:59

Friday, May 09, 2014 at 09:59
Motor cars are sophisticated pieces of equipment, there are a lot of issues in current cars that in comparison to older cars may be a concern. Look at water in fuel, running fuel tanks empty, trying to roll start a car with flat battery are just some.
All these are also "traps for new players" but we have come to accept them, this new issue of the oil pump not picking up if oil is let to drain for more than 10 minutes is just another.
Listen, learn, adapt and move on.

Alan
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Follow Up By: Ross M - Friday, May 09, 2014 at 11:14

Friday, May 09, 2014 at 11:14
I agree with Rosss.
The filing of a Oldhen oil filter has nothing to do with the pump picking up oil as the filter is downstream of the pump anyway. It is a gear pump and unless stuffed, it will draw oil.

I like the comments from a few who say, "Just don't leave the oil out for very long, don't reinvent the wheel etc" have all missed the point entirely.

That is all well and good, but for those who don't know it will/may happen that point of view is useless.
If it happens to someone, even if they do know it is possible, some method of getting it going again is a distinct advantage.. Don't you think?
Just to pass it off because you haven't had/got the problem means little.
One even said the discussion is overdone, not so, no definite determination has been achieved for those who suffer, and being aware means less loss to the owner. It appears many don't consider the owner, because of "I'm alright Jack" attitude.

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Friday, May 09, 2014 at 11:33

Friday, May 09, 2014 at 11:33
There are many thing the DIYers do that are dangerous or could cause damage due to their lack of ability and understanding on the matter.

Oils and coolants are not all compatible to each other or the vehicle they are may be used in but there are many who would use the wrong coolant or oil and when it fails in 4 years from the wrong coolant or oil they think it's just the norm and know no difference.

The problem with the Ranger/BT-50 is nothing new and the ones it will catch out are the ones who should not be doing the work.

Remember warranties are void if the vehicle has been serviced or worked on by a qualified mechanic or a business not authorised to carry out repairs or maintenance.

So as Alan said..... "Listen, learn, adapt and move on."

And BTW lack of knowledge or understanding does not make something bad, unreliable or incorrectly engineered....... but some want to blame everything else before blaming them selves and accepting that they screwed up!
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Friday, May 09, 2014 at 11:37

Friday, May 09, 2014 at 11:37
OPPPSSSS!!!!!!!!

READ" Remember warranties are void if the vehicle has been serviced or worked on by a qualified mechanic or a business not authorised to carry out repairs or maintenance."

SHOULD OF READ "Remember warranties are void if the vehicle has been serviced or worked on by an unqualified person or a business not authorised to carry out repairs or maintenance."
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Follow Up By: Alan S (WA) - Friday, May 09, 2014 at 11:41

Friday, May 09, 2014 at 11:41
Ross
I think you missed the point of my post entirely i am not passing it off as it hasnt happened to me. But my post is in context of a earlier comment where where the comment "never heard of anything so stupid" was made.

The point i was making is that there are many things, issues like this, they are part of a modern car. And like many other problems they are avoidable.

Technology in cars is unavoidable and we all need to accept that things have changed, and tasks we may have done ourselfs are now beyond D.I.Y
Would I go back to 2000km oill changes, crossply tyres, 4 wheel drum brakes - no.

Alan
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Friday, May 09, 2014 at 23:30

Friday, May 09, 2014 at 23:30
Rediculous-as Ross pointed out, its common to leave it draining for a period, and being a marine engineer/diesel mechanic, I have never come across this before.
I often take the bung out then carry on with other stuff and come back to it.
As do many qualified people who go on with the other service items rather than sit around scratching their nuts for 9.5 minutes.
Olcoolone is the one "overthinking" the problems-if some Ford mechanics do not know of this ludicrous problem then it certainly is an issue worth discussin
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 08:56

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 08:56
Just because a few Ford dealerships and maybe it's only the service advisor at these dealerships (according to this forum) haven't heard about it doesn't mean all the others at other Ford/Mazda dealerships haven't.

I would honestly say if it was a REAL concern or if it affect every Range/BT-50 you would of heard about it by now.... They have been on the market for nearly 2.5 years and are a high volume seller both here in Australia and the other 180 country's they are sold in.

Jump on the Ranger and BT-50 forums world wide and there is very little mentioned and and maybe one directly who has had a engine fail from it.

And Ford/ Mazda would of sent a TSB to their authorised dealers/service centers....... Do you think they would take the risk of engines blowing up/seizing for the cost of a reguJust because a few Ford dealerships and maybe it's only the service advisor at these dealerships (according to this forum) haven't heard about it doesn't mean all the others at other Ford/Mazda dealerships.

It's funny those who cause or contribute to the mass hysteria don't own or have got no interest in owning a Range/ BT-50 but seem to contribute the most.......... Bit like saying "sucked in and i'm going to rub it in"

I'm not overthinking any thing because I don't think it is a wide spread concern or a major issue.

Maybe an engine failed after a prolonged oil change outside a dealership by a mechanic and it was thought it was the cause of the failure........ One thing leads to another and with the world wide net word travels very fast........ It would be nice to know the original source of the concern and how it came about.

If it was at a Ford/ Mazda dealership and the manufacture got involved as they would of, they would of acted very fast to stop further failures or damage.

You have to look outside the square, think logically about the whole situation and don't jump to conclusions Just because a few Ford dealerships and maybe it's only the service advisor at these dealerships (according to this forum) haven't heard about it doesn't mean all the others at other Ford/Mazda dealerships haven't.

I would honestly say if it was a REAL concern or if it affect every Range/BT-50 you would of heard about it by now.... They have been on the market for nearly 2.5 years and are a high volume seller both here in Australia and the other 180 country's they are sold in.

Jump on the Ranger and BT-50 forums world wide and there is very little mentioned and and maybe one directly who has had a engine fail from it.

And Ford/ Mazda would of sent a TSB to their authorised dealers/service centers....... Do you think they would take the risk of engines blowing up/seizing for the cost of a reguJust because a few Ford dealerships and maybe it's only the service advisor at these dealerships (according to this forum) haven't heard about it doesn't mean all the others at other Ford/Mazda dealerships.

It's funny those who cause or contribute to the mass hysteria don't own or have got no interest in owning a Range/ BT-50 but seem to contribute the most.......... Bit like saying "sucked in and i'm going to rub it in"

I'm not overthinking any thing because I don't think it is a wide spread concern or a major issue.

Maybe an engine failed after a prolonged oil change outside a dealership by a mechanic and it was thought it was the cause of the failure........ One thing leads to another and with the world wide net word travels very fast........ It would be nice to know the original source of the concern and how it came about.

If it was at a Ford/ Mazda dealership where it happened I would say they would act very promptly to stop it happening

Unlike most I'm on here I'm thinking logically about the situation and not jumping to conclusions on something I have no real hard core data to back up a claim with and don't know the origin of the failure.




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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 09:01

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 09:01
Hate iPads..... They are the worst device for typing and editing, they have a mind of their own .....
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 09:43

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 09:43
But it is an issue none the less, and Barry asked a legit question about what he needs to do if he encounters this "on the road".
For some reason your taking the "Nissan" defence.
That its an issue made up by jealous owners of other brands :-)
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Follow Up By: Alan S (WA) - Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 10:31

Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 10:31
And Barry has had some answers to his questions,
1) don't let it sit drain in for to long
2) and some suggestions as to how to solve it if it happens, they may or may not work.

I do think that at times we worry about to much, after all with 15000km service intervals, which for a lot of people is once a year if you have to do it "on the road" may be you trip planning needs reviewing.
It is getting now to a stage that unless you are a qualified mechanic that the days of home servicing are over. Another way of looking at it is you spend $50k on a car and squint on a $500 a year service.
The OP has had some answers.
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