HELP!!!! Towing question :/

Submitted: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 11:13
ThreadID: 107855 Views:3313 Replies:13 FollowUps:19
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I'm sure this question has been asked many times before but I cant find anything that helps me out......My problem is.!!!
I'm in the market to buy a new or a good used 4WD to tow a horse float, the horse float I want to purchase has these details....
Aggregate Trailer Mass:3400kg
Tare Weight: 1620kg
I am assuming I need a 4WD that has a towing capacity of at least 3500kgs, is that right?
I was interested in a Nissan Patrol 3.0 but on the website it says it only has a braked towing capacity of 2500kgs so I'm assuming that car would not be suitable.
Would this mean I would need a 4.2ltr Nissan Patrol?
I have owned 4WD most of my driving life but never had to tow anything as heavy as this, I currently have a Toyota Prado which I tow a smaller horse float with but I'm looking to upgrade my car and float so I need to know before I buy something that it can tow the larger horse float.
Ive been looking at the new Isuzu D-max x-runner which has a towing capacity of 3500kgs, but I don't really want a ute.
Apart from the obvious F trucks that I know would definitely tow that weight am I just left with a V8 Landcruiser?
What are other option of cars that can tow well with this weight?
Also, is the Aggregate Trailer Mass of 3400kgs is that with it fully loaded with horses or without?
Thanks, any help would be extremely appreciated.
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Reply By: Member - Leanne W (NSW) - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 11:30

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 11:30
Yes, you will need a vehicle with a 3500kg towing capacity.
The Tare is the empty weight of the float - it appears to be quite heavy, so I assume its a triple load? The ATM is the weight fully loaded, ie with horses and gear on board.
A Jeep has a 3500kg towing capacity.
We went for a 200 series to tow our horse float.
Cheers
Leanne
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Follow Up By: Member - Leanne W (NSW) - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 11:37

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 11:37
Hi Julie,
Another thing to be aware of is the new horse float will have electric brakes and a breakaway system (because of its weight), so your tow vehicle will need an electric brake controller.
Leanne
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Reply By: garrycol - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 12:03

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 12:03
Any modern Landrover product - in particular the D3/D4, RRS or RR will tow that with ease. The Defender will also tow it with ease albiet a little slower and a little less comfort.

Garry
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 17:03

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 17:03
Earlier Land Rover products had a 4 ton towing capacity!

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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Thursday, May 29, 2014 at 18:53

Thursday, May 29, 2014 at 18:53
"Earlier Land Rover products had a 4 ton towing capacity!"

They were the models without the self levelling suspension.

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Reply By: discovery1652/4 - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 15:23

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 15:23
Just a thought but a friend of ours tows a 5th wheeler wt 3400kg with a d-max with a chip in it and he swears by the reliability ,power and economy .
I know you said you didn,t want a ute but maybe the new Isuzu 4x4 could be an option.
cheers


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Reply By: MEMBER - Darian, SA - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 16:07

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 16:07
"Accepted wisdom" by experts and authorities in this field suggests: 1. With an ATM of 3400kg, a downforce of 340kg on the ball is recommended for safe towing. I'm sure this 10% 'rule' can be happily compromised but it gives you an idea of what the rear of your car can be required to support, let alone pull.
2. Some vehicles that can legally tow 3500kg cannot support anything like 10% of that figure on the ball....(they can only achieve the 10% factor at lighter loadings).
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Reply By: bob&loz - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 16:28

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 16:28
The 3.0l Patrol with 2500Kg capacity is the auto. The manual can go to 3200Kg. All 4.2 Patrols are manual as well.
The Tare of 1620 is the empty weight. The ATM of 3400 is the Maximum weight that the trailer can be loaded to. That means the trailer can carry a load of 1780Kg.
If you were to use the Patrol with the 3200Kg tow capacity you would only be able to have a load of 1480Kg. So it depends on how heavy the horses and anything else you want to load in like hay and saddles are as to whether or not it would suit.
AnswerID: 532822

Reply By: 671 - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 16:35

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 16:35
Where do you intend towing this float? If you are running around a place like the NSW Riverina where it is hard to find a hill, then any car with a capacity of 3500 kgs will tow it. If your driving includes the Great Dividing Range or similar areas, many of those cars will be struggling which is most likely why people start playing around with chips and larger exhausts in an attempt to keep them going. That does make them go better and they are reliable, that is untill the extra stress on the engine and drive train breaks something.

I would prefer something that is heavier than the float which would be an F series. A Landcruiser would be next on the list, particular a dual cab. The V8 dual cab would tow it with easy in standard form but it is still much lighter than the fully loaded float. The big advantage is it would suddenly become the ideal thing if the float was a 5th wheeler, as has already been mentioned. That design of trailer is about 1000% more stable than a conventional trailer when towing something heavy at speed. Its wheels are down the back and the forward weight sits directly over the tow vehicle axle. This means it has no long heavy tail behind its wheels to throw around and it can't "wag" the end of a lighter weight tow vehicle. This is why the design is used on heavy trucks where the trailer far outweighs the prime mover..
AnswerID: 532823

Follow Up By: garrycol - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 17:01

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 17:01
My brother just got rid of his 2010 V8 Cruiser ute because of its pretty lame performance at high weights. The turbo V8 has pretty low torque for its engine size and is eclipsed many other diesels. My little 2.7 litre diesel has more torque at the same revs.

He said his new 200 series V8 Twin turbo is a lot better and is quite happy.

Garry
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Reply By: Julie W9 - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 16:56

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 16:56
Thank you everyone for you reply's, that have been very helpful :)

Question..Some of you are talking about the fifth wheel, excuse my ignorance, but isn't that only suitable for gooseneck trailers only and doesn't the hitch go on the the back of the ute not where the usual tow ball is?
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Follow Up By: Member - Leanne W (NSW) - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 18:02

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 18:02
Yes, that's correct.
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Reply By: DiscoTourer - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 19:59

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 19:59
We have a triple axle horse float, rated to 3500 kgs and it's right on the weight limit towing with two big horses (just over 600kgs each), tack, water (200 litres for horses and for the bathroom), food, etc.

Discovery tows it with ease.....even our Touareg tows it with ease.

Discovery has electronic air suspension so the back lifts up once the weight is applied. So much easier to setup.

The Touareg needs a weight distribution hitch to level it all out (requires a bit of effort for the wife with the 800 pound kit.....it's usually up to me as she struggles to lift the weight), and with the 200 series you will definitely need it as they are particular soft in the rear. Our good neighbour is in the process of setting her 200 up with a wdh hitch. They tore the tank off their float due to how soft the rear of the 200 is. Her ball weight with two horse was 320 kgs, and ours is 340 kgs. You need the wdh to restore the light steering created by high ball weight, and saggy bum created by heavy ball weight trailers.

Brett.....
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Thursday, May 29, 2014 at 19:09

Thursday, May 29, 2014 at 19:09
"The Touareg needs a weight distribution hitch to level it all out (requires a bit of effort for the wife with the 800 pound kit.....it's usually up to me as she struggles to lift the weight)"

I would say that is because you do not use the jockey wheel to lift the back of the tug before you put the bars on. All the later instructions suggest you lift the back a bit before applying the bars.

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Reply By: BunderDog - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 20:02

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 20:02
Buy a good used Ford F250, it will tow that weight safely with ease.
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Follow Up By: Julie W9 - Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 20:13

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 20:13
I have been told not to buy any F Truck cause the parts are extremely expensive and the trucks are always breaking down. I was actually thinking of getting one, but people are talking me out of it, this is why I'm so confused lol
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Reply By: Emerging I.T.- Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 20:52

Tuesday, May 20, 2014 at 20:52
Does the aggregate include the horses I presume. A lot of people are now buying the new Ford Ranger which also has a rating of 3500kg. I haven't driven the dmax but the Ranger is a great drive and vehicle. I use both a Hilux and 200 series TD, the later the king of towing vehicles IMO.
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Follow Up By: Nutta - Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 18:11

Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 18:11
Better than a chev silverado and dodge ram?
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Follow Up By: Emerging I.T.- Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 18:46

Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 18:46
Better all rounder Nutta, the yank tanks have their advantages off course.
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Reply By: Iza B - Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 06:07

Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 06:07
You will need a vehicle capable of towing, at least, 3400 Kgs if you intend to load the float up to its rated limit. A 200 series Landcruiser would do the job without effort and I am pretty sure the 4.2 Patrol would be suitable, as well. ATM refers to the total allowable load and the weight of any horses would be part of the load.

Iza
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 13:00

Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 13:00
ATM is actually the total weight of the trailer including tongue weight, not the load.
GTM is the load on the axles themselves (ATM minus towball downforce)
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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 17:21

Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 17:21
No, mate, the ATM includes the load.

ATM = GTM plus tongue weight.

GTM is the max allowable weight on the wheels - ie, including load.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Iza B - Thursday, May 29, 2014 at 17:24

Thursday, May 29, 2014 at 17:24
Yes Frank. A quick way to remember is that the "A" stands for Aggregate.

Iza
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Reply By: BunderDog - Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 08:06

Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 08:06
Just bear in mind that if you tow a 3400kg trailer with a 3500kg rated tow vehicle you are within 3% of its rated capacity. Horses tend to move around a bit until settles down and I would certainly be looking for something giving a little more leeway.

BTW we had an F350 and towed approximately 5600kg 200,000 miles with no problems.
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Reply By: Kumunara (NT) - Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 11:01

Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 11:01
Julie

One important thing for towing is the amount of torque. The more the better. You don't want a ute - that does restrict the vehicles.

A twin cab use does have some advantages. It is also a growing sector in the market and there is a lot of competition. Because of that competition there are some very good twin cab utes.

The pick of them is the Amarok but its towing capacity is 3000kg which is less than your ATM. The next best is the Mazda BT50/Ford Ranger. They have a towing capacity of 3500kg and put out 470nm.



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Follow Up By: Nutta - Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 18:13

Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 18:13
a 2 litre amorok, you've got to be joking!!
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 18:31

Wednesday, May 21, 2014 at 18:31
All Amoraks produce good torque for the engine size but it is a little engine and as such produces far less torque than the opposition - definitely not good enough to pull 3000kg on a regular basis.
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 10:54

Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 10:54
I have heard the same ill-informed comments about only 2ltrs before.

They use the same motor in the transporter pulling that sort of weight. When I was doing my research I came across a post from a bloke who works for a company that keeps them for 700,000. They have never had one fail.

So I am not joking. The Europeans are way ahead of the japs in turbo diesels.

I tow a camper trailer that has a tare weight of 1.5 t and it was a lot more loaded. Towed that up to Cape York and the Savannah Way without a problem. It used an average of 12.09L/100kms on that trip.

The only vehicles that had problems on that trip towing were a Prado and a Hi-lux.

If you read my post however I suggested that they look at the BT50/Ranger as that has a 3.5 t towing capacity and 470nm torque.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 11:44

Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 11:44
My comments are not ill informed - as said high power and hi torque for its size but absolute power and torque is low compared to its modern competition.

As you said the BT50/Ranger has 470nm where the Amorak has 100nm less or even less again depending on variant.
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 14:36

Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 14:36
Garry


My comments were mainly directed at Nutta's reply.

However you haven't got your facts right so your reply and previous comments are ill informed. The Amarok puts out 420 nm. That is a 50 nm difference - not 100 nm as you have stated.

The only dual cabs that put out more that I am aware of are the BT50/Ranger, Colorado and the V6 Nissan.

420 nm is more than adequate.


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Follow Up By: Nutta - Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 15:53

Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 15:53
Imo ALL these utes are to dangerous for towing that kind of weight.

2L, 2.8l, 3.0l, 3.2l are all to small as far as I'm concerned, I'm might be a bit old school but 'there aint no substitute for cubic inches'!!
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 17:28

Thursday, May 22, 2014 at 17:28
Yes you are correct - I was looking at the standard model - 340nm but the top of the range is 420nm.

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