New caravan

Submitted: Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:10
ThreadID: 108470 Views:2003 Replies:10 FollowUps:1
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We want to buy a new Jayco starcraft 21 ft. Van. Tare 2055/2240 ball 164/197
Will our old 2005 pajero tow this van , or do we need to upgrade to a new model , which I have heard is a bigger motor , better able for towing ?
We have been towing a 17.6 van wth no trouble at all , don't even know it's on the back !
Very confusing with all the tare /ball weights !
Thanks Petra x
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Reply By: Member - Sn00py2 (NSW) - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:55

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:55
Hi Petra,

What does the handbook say as regards max towing weight, tow ball load etc?

Regards,

Sn00py2
AnswerID: 534908

Reply By: Bludge - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:22

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:22
Petra,

The 2005 Pajero Petrol or Diesel auto or manual, according to Redbook have a 2500kg towing capacity. So it should be able to tow it, however it is towards it maximum capacity.

The lower and higher TARE depends on your fit out according to the Jayco web page.

"The tow ball and tare weights are only a guide and will change depending on accessories that are fitted to your van. it is advisable to discuss this with your Jayco representative. Jayco allow an amount of additional weight (Carrying load) for each individual unit manufactured above the initial manufactured Tare weight of the unit. This ‘Carrying load’ is for the customers individual weight requirements and can be made up of ‘any’ additional weight they propose to load the unit up of. ie water, food, clothes etc. The standard unit carrying loads Jayco apply are; Single Axle, internal shower units 375kg. Tandem Axle, internal shower units 475kg. "

TonyV

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AnswerID: 534910

Reply By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:24

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:24
A mate of mine has a late model Pajero. The max towing weight and ball loadings are related.

His Paj has a max trailer mass of 3000kg, BUT if the ball weight exceeds 160kg (or is it 180? - you'll need to check) the max trailer mass becomes 2500kg. It is not a linear or pro-rata thing, its a step.

I mention this because the Jayco weights you quote are pushing the late model Paj's towing limitation cut-over points.

Cheers
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AnswerID: 534911

Reply By: Member - Leigh (Vic) - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:41

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 12:41
Hi Petra. For what it's worth I will not tow anything that is heavier than the tow vehicle. The key for me is to ensure all the steering is performed by the tow vehicle rather than the van, particularly when mixing it with large transport vehicles on the highway. A lot of people attempt to compensate with stabilisers etc but this in my view is only serving to mask the underlying deficiency. Put simply my advice is to go for a heavy tow vehicle and a significantly lighter caravan. Cheers
AnswerID: 534913

Reply By: Bob Y. - Qld - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 13:55

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 13:55
Petra,

We have some printouts of Jayco site on our table, have been looking at the Starcraft Outback 'vans.

What about the 19' model? Ball weight of 147/147, and tare of 2008/2205. Might be one way to keep the Pajero, or only upgrade to a new one. I like the seperate toilet/shower unit. Gives me somewhere to sleep if I'm out of favour with the Boss. :-)

Bob

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AnswerID: 534920

Reply By: Member - Jim B8 - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 19:40

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 19:40
Petra
My understanding of loading is this. GCM cannot ever be exceeded

What does this mean? well its not straightforward.
There are many acronyms involved, and its confusing as people will advise that if you are overloaded,, then just get the heavy duty springs, and all is fixed. Well I beg to differ.

Ok, some acronyms, GVM, ATM, GCM.

GVM is gross vehicle mass, the maximum weight that you vehicle can weigh when it is loaded . A combination of the weight (as supplied, maybe cab/chassis) and what you put in it, the tray, the dual batteries, the fuel the passengers, the stuff in the back, the lot. And 10% of the ATM if you intend towing something. You CAN upgrade the GVM by installing better springs, and often they come pre- engineered with the approval for a GVM increase. More on this later.

ATM is Aggregate Trailerable Mass. Or the maximum weight that your caravan, plus what you put in it, water, food, bits and pieces. Note this is not what your caravan weighs, its is the MAXIMUM it can weigh legally.

GCM, now here is where it gets messy. In Queensland, GCM can NEVER alter, even with an increase in GVM. I will try to explain this a bit better
In assessment of your GVM (when you are towing), you have to include 10% of your ATM, in my case with the Bushtracker, 10 % of the 3500kg ATM (empty it is 2700 kg) has to be included in the GVM calculation. So, 350 kg had to be added to my GVM assessment, not 10% of my actual caravan weight.
Getting back to GVM, the manufacturer gets the vehicles rated in Australia for the GVM, (and GCM)its actual approved weight is on the website etc, well documented. And yes, you can upgrade this figure with an engineered package of springs etc.

But you can never alter the GCM, Gross Combined Mass. Ouch

At least in Queensland. SO, in effect, increasing the GVM with better springs etc, means that the towing capacity is funding it, If the GCM cannot ever be altered, then adding GVM capacity to the tow vehicle must subtract it from the item you tow. Why?

Because GCM is the addition of the GVM and the ATM... Add to the front, subtract from the rear.
So will you be able to tow your new van? I suggest packing your tow vehicle as if you were on the road. Go out to the recycle site and get it weighed. Look up the new vans ATM, and add it to your vehicle weight (assuming it does not already exceed its GVM(see ATM inclusion above)). Make very sure that the sum of the weight of the tow rig, loaded, and the ATM, does not exceed the vehicles GCM (look on site)
Now, this has been long winded, and I apologise, I am no expert on this and will doubtlessly attract a lot of differing opinions. But I speak thru experience.
If the caravan is single axel, it will probably work out ok. Dual axel,, do your maths.
regards

Jim
AnswerID: 534944

Reply By: Member - Jim B8 - Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 19:47

Tuesday, Jun 24, 2014 at 19:47
Oh and I forgot to say, its nothing to do with the vehicles ability to pull the load, bigger motor etc. It ONLY relates to the vehicles licensed GVM, GCM.
Insurance is invalid if overloaded.
Jim
AnswerID: 534948

Reply By: ozjohn0 - Wednesday, Jun 25, 2014 at 13:27

Wednesday, Jun 25, 2014 at 13:27
Jayco allow a payload of 475Kg.
With a TARE Mass of 2055Kg or 2240Kg the ATM with be either 2530Kg or 2715Kg depending on the model.
But with the low maximum ball weights allowed by Jayco of 475Kg the maximum ball weight will be 8 - 8.8% also depending on the model.
I wouldn't be happy towing a 21' van with those low ball weights.
Previously Jayco only listed the ball weight for the Van the TARE condition and the drawbars were strong enough to comfortably handle ball weights of 10 - 15%.
But with the ATM's exceeding 2500Kg (You'll need all of the payload) I'd be looking to upgrade the tow vehicle for one with a high towing and ball weight capacity.
Ozjohn.
AnswerID: 534979

Follow Up By: ozjohn0 - Wednesday, Jun 25, 2014 at 13:52

Wednesday, Jun 25, 2014 at 13:52
Petra,
To help you better understand the weights I've departed from the legal definitions and listed the info below in simple laymans terms.

TARE: The weight of the van when it left the factory with empty water tanks and empty LPG Cylinders etc.

ATM: The maximum legal weight of the laden van.
It must not be exceeded.
This is a manufacturers specified weight that cannot be weighed.

GTM: The maximum legal weight applied to the road by the wheels when the van is loaded to the ATM and that load is evenly distributed throughout the van. It must not be exceeded.
This is a manufacturers specified weight that cannot be weighed.

BALL WEIGHT: is weight applied to the tow ball by the vans coupling.
It's the actual Laden weight (Not ATM) less the actual weight on the wheels (Not GTM). This varies as weight is increased or decreased within on on the van as items are increase or reduced.
i.e. the water, food etc.
Where the manufacturer specifies a maximum Ball weight it must not be exceeded.

PAYLOAD: Is the ATM less the TARE.
This is the maximum that can be added onto or into the van after it left the factory.
It includes any items added by you or the dealer after it left the factory and includes water, LPG, food, clothing, pots, pans, bedding (But usually not mattresses), hoses, lead, shovel, bucket etc. etc.
PS> If the mattress and TV etc were supplied by the manufacturer then they should be included in the TARE.

GVM: The maximum legal laden weight of the vehicle with everything added including fuel in excess of the first 10Litres, driver, passengers and van ball weight etc.

GCM: The maximum combined legal weight of the tow vehicle and van.

Hope the helps a little.
Ozjohn.
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FollowupID: 818807

Reply By: tim_c - Wednesday, Jun 25, 2014 at 13:33

Wednesday, Jun 25, 2014 at 13:33
Petra,

Having spent a bit of time looking over Jayco brochures recently, I can tell you the two sets of numbers relate to the different versions of the caravan - onroad vs. offroad. The offroad (Jayco call it: outback) is a heavier caravan, being more ruggedly built for extended use on unsealed roads.

Therefore, for the on-road version of the caravan you are looking at, the tare (empty) weight is 2055kg with a ball load (how much weight is carried directly by the tow ball on your Pajero) is 164kg. The off-road version (which will also cost more to buy) is 2240kg empty with a ball load of 197kg - the brochures (or the salesman) should explain all of this.

As for the capacity of your car, the vehicle handbook will be the best source for this information, or Mitsubishi themselves. Towing capacity is not just about the power/torque of the engine, the capacity of your drivetrain is also an important factor (yes, we've all heard the stories of a Landcruiser being able to tow a road train home one day, and while it is possible, the stories don't usually include the epilogue which goes on to say that the entire drivetrain of said Landcruiser had to be replaced because it was never designed to carry such loads).

Make sure the tow bar you have is also correctly rated for the caravan you intend to buy - it is not unusual for the tow bar to be rated to an amount less than the vehicle's maximum towing capacity.

Tim.
AnswerID: 534980

Reply By: Petra P - Wednesday, Jun 25, 2014 at 19:12

Wednesday, Jun 25, 2014 at 19:12
Thank you all so much regarding my caravan weight dilemma, all sorted out now , you have all been a huge help Thanx again Petra xxxxx
AnswerID: 534999

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