WARN winch - which one to choose (and general winch info needed)

Submitted: Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 17:59

ThreadID: 108635 Views:7628 Replies:7 FollowUps:6

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masterA

I’ve made a decision to purchase a Warn winch (buy once rule as they say)
Anyway…..i’ve got abit of a dilemma as to which Warn winch to purchase so i thought i'd ask a few of the gurus on this site :)

I’ve got a 2010 Troopy which has a kerb weight of 2355kg and gross weight of 3300kg so once fully loaded it will weigh close to 3.5T so a good/reliable winch is what I want when touring around Oz that will last me for years to come without any major dramas.

I’ve read numerous reports where people say that you need to look at the SWL (safety working load) of the winch as opposed to what LBS they are rated to or “can pull”?

Now, the 9500 pound winches are mostly rated (for a single-line pull) to about 4300kg
If for example my car does get bogged to the belly in mud and I need to winch it out, the loaded weight will be around 3.5-4T

In theory, if my car weighs 4T then a 9500 pound winch should be able to single-line pull the car out without any problems or am I missing something?

Someone mentioned that if you’re really stuck the weight gets multiplied by something and the actual pulling weight of the winch needs to be increased for the weight or the car?
Is that correct or can someone educate me about single-line pulls (I know that you can double your pulling capacity by a snatch block etc etc but I want to know about the single line pull)

Line speed isn’t really an issue for me or very important as is the capacity to pull the car out.
In saying that though, this is where my dilemma comes in regarding to the bulbar I want to get and the winches I can put onto that bar.
I really want to get the ARB deluxe bar (http://www.arb.com.au/products/arb-protection-equipment/bull-bars/deluxe-bull-bars/3412410/) but there are only certain types of winches that will fit that bar (like the XDC9500, the 9.5XP or the new Zeon 10-S even the Zeon 12)

So, the winches I’m looking at:
• XDC9500
o (http://www.arb.com.au/products/electric-winches/warn-winches/range/ww-xdc9500.php)
o Maximum Load-(Single Line) 4320kgs (9500lbs)
o Motor 12V Gen II, 4.6hp, series wound
o Gear Train 3 stage planetary
o Gear Ratio 216:1
o Cable 30m x 8mm dia.

• 9.5XP
o (http://www.arb.com.au/products/electric-winches/warn-winches/range/ww-95xp.php)
o Maximum Load-(Single Line) 4320kgs (9500lbs)
o Motor 6hp, series wound
o Gear Train 3 stage planetary
o Gear Ratio 156:1
o Cable 30m x 8mm dia.

• Zeon 10-S
o http://www.arb.com.au/products/electric-winches/warn-winches/range/zeon-10-s.php
o Maximum Load-(Single Line) 4536kgs (10,000lbs)
o Motor 12V DC, series wound
o Gear Train 3 stage planetary
o Gear Ratio 216:1
o Clutch-(Freespooling) Rotating ring gear
o Cable 9.52mm x 24.38m

• Zeon 12
o http://www.arb.com.au/products/electric-winches/warn-winches/range/zeon-12.php
o Maximum Load-(Single Line) 5443kg (12,000lbs)
o Motor 12V DC, series wound
o Gear Train 3 stage planetary
o Gear Ratio 216:1
o Clutch-(Freespooling) Rotating ring gear
o Cable 9.52mm x 24.38m

I’ve spoken with a few people and they said that the parts for the new Zeon range are nearly non-existent (need to come from overseas) and that they are all built in China whereas the XDC9500 and 9.5XP are built in USA (probably in china too but apparently are a much better build and quality)

The biggest problem I can see with the Zeon is that it hasn’t really been tested in the real world just yet but the pricing is near identical to the XDC or XP and they’re IP68 rated which means it can theoretically work underwater without any problems.

As much as the Zeon 10-S and Zeon 12 are identical in size, ARB Deluxe Bar is not rated for the Zeon 12 winch (biggest is Zeon 10 they legally allow)
I could always bite the bullet and just get the Zeon 12 and fit it in the Deluxe Bar (just incase I do need the extra pull) but then if anything does happen, the warranty wouldn’t cover it.

Someone mentioned that the XDC9500 is a much better winch with less complications than the 9.5XP
From what I can see, they are nearly identical specs wise but apparently the XDC9500 has less problems. Can anyone confirm this?
The other option is to get the Commercial Bar which will allow all different types of winches.

I would really like to stick with the ARB Deluxe Bar as mentioned above instead of going for the ARB Commercial Bar (http://www.arb.com.au/products/arb-protection-equipment/bull-bars/commercial-bars/3412440/) which can fit the high mount 12,000LB or 15,000LB winches

I’m not too keen on the look of the bar but it will give me an option to have a high mount winch such as the M1200 (http://www.arb.com.au/products/electric-winches/warn-winches/range/ww-m12000.php) , or the Magnum 12K http://www.arb.com.au/products/electric-winches/warn-winches/range/warn_magnum_12K.php

My questions is, I need to know if I get a 9500 pound winch will it have the safe capacity to pull out a 4T vehicle out of the bog.
Has anyone had much experience with the new Zeon range of the winches or can comment on the XDC9500 versus the 9.5XP.
What would you choose if you had to make a decision and why?

Thanks for reading this essay and look forward to your replies :)

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Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 18:47

Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 18:47

For what it is worth I have been deliberating over the exact issue and confusing info and mis-info that is out there all given by arm tree experts along with some people at the coal face who actually use and have used their winches over time

To keep my response to a minimum I will summarise by saying I am going with the ARB deluxe bull bar and the Zeon 10-S ...I like the new design and the water proofing...( the "loser" by a close 2nd was the Warn 9.5 XP)

The vehicle it is to be fitted to is a 200 series T/D current model in fact it is a week old :)

I was led to believe that the reason the new Zeon is marginally cheaper (than the 9.5XP) is simply because it is a new design from the ground up and it is manufacturing processes (frame, seals, gearing, electrics etc.) that have enabled Warn to pass on the cost savings...and maintain their profit margin per unit

My immediate concern was it cheaper because they shaved a few corners to try and be more competitive with the plethora of opposition winches out there............realistically they didn't achieve that as they are only a few hundred $ cheaper than the XP and still many $ dearer than all the others....and so I am inclined to believe the new design / model from the ground up explanation.

As for the made in China comment...who cares?.....I doubt that it is and regardless it is WARN that I am backing not the country of manufacture.......40 years ago it was "made in Japan" that bothered us...now it is the standard ......I really don't give a toss where it is manufactured it is WARN that I am backing.....

Actually you might be hard pushed to find a large selection of winches to purchase and select from (except WARN) that are not Chinese made.......Reputable brand names that use China as a country of manufacture will not ruin what has taken them years to build up

Parts availability?.......I will worry about that if and when.......if that worries you buy 2 cheaper ones for spares (joking)

Dead pull weight?...no definitive answer.....we are all heavier than we know or admit to ...Its a fair call to say the average 4WD out there with a few added fixed accessories and gear along with people and tucker are close to or over 3.5 ton........stick that in mud suction or belly it.....and you are going to seriously test any winch to its rated pull (maybe the line first)...........I always use a snatch and work safe just in case....don't forget to add whatever your towing to the dead weight!..it just gets worse and worse

I'm happy with my 10-S decision and its rated pull......that is already over 40kg hanging off the front end of the vehicle.........save a few $ and a few dead kg carted over the years and spend them on extension straps and snatch block.........I have only winched a few times over the years...but when I did I was alone, remote and in bother......my winch has to work then....

FYI I have only ever owned (and still do on other vehicles) a WARN and a Superwinch....neither brand has ever let me down

cheers

Life is a journey, it is not how we fall down, it is how we get up.
VKS 1341

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AnswerID: 535612

Reply By: Les PK Ranger - Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 18:53

Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 18:53

Well hope the mods don't mind a link to another forum, but this thread has some very interesting reading on water ingress, and who covers their winches with a full warranty . . . 4x4 Earth winch warranties thread

AnswerID: 535614

Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 19:55

Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 19:55

Thanks Les
I have been trying to find that page for some time.
Though I have a Warn winch - bought on name, not review - if I was buying now I would choose one of the other brands mentioned in the article.

Denial of warranty by Warn (and others) because of immersion is ridiculous, as is the lack of waterproofing, especially in Warns case given the premium price they charge.

Cheers

FrankP

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FollowupID: 819495

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 20:03

Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 20:03

Submerging an alternator or starter motor will also get a claim rejected...... It's not clean water as in the high country but muddy water that destroys them

All the years we have had winches, submerging them has never been an issue.... If it was something I was doing all the time then yes a sealed one may be an advantage.

FollowupID: 819497

Follow Up By: Les PK Ranger - Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 20:05

Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 20:05

No probs Frank . . . I do recall reading that older warns are fine, much better builds, they just aren't making them the same now.

From what I've read of people winch experiences, maintenance is the key.
Many people get in and grease up insides to help keep water at bay, and strip down and dry out / repack after immersion.
Maybe doing that is prudent if you own any winch.

FollowupID: 819498

Follow Up By: masterA - Friday, Jul 25, 2014 at 17:27

Friday, Jul 25, 2014 at 17:27

Thanks for the link....it definitelly changed my mind which way to go!!! :)
Much appreciated

FollowupID: 820745

Reply By: olcoolone - Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 19:15

Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 19:15

I have had two vehicles with Warn winches, our current 200 series has a M12000. the four times we have used it it worked a treat...... The reason for going big is we tow an Ultimate camper and it,s nice to pull both at the same time as undoing the camper is not alway possable.

AnswerID: 535615

Reply By: pop2jocem - Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 19:52

Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 19:52

A couple of factors to keep in mind when choosing and maybe using your winch. 3.5 t of Landcruiser bogged to it belly in mud. How much force is it going to take to move it?
Depends on the mud? Is there any solid ground underneath so that hopefully the wheels can assist? Who knows, every scenario is different, but I would imagine it is going to vary between not much to be some multiples of the weight of your vehicle.
The other factor which you might have already taken into consideration is that these winches rated abilities are on a bare drum. As you winch in and the layers build up so the winching ability drops off.

Cheers
Pop

AnswerID: 535620

Reply By: wholehog - Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 20:03

Monday, Jul 07, 2014 at 20:03

One factor not measured is the water ingress..they all leak, they all vent to atmosphere, they are all hopeless in a corrosive moisture environment, and that particularly includes beashes, deserts and clay/saltpans.

The only way to get longevity to any winch, cheap or the buy once rule ones..is to modify it yourself.
Pull it apart, seal the gearbox and motor casing to the winch drum, drill and tap fit a brass elbow to the electric motor casing lowest point and vent it through fuel hose and a ryco petrol filter under the bonnet.
Apart from that, you might as well buy the cheapest poo and replace it often, as you will with the buy once rule winch....thats if you actually go offroad more than Westfield and a drive in the National Park.

AnswerID: 535622

Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Tuesday, Jul 08, 2014 at 06:46

Tuesday, Jul 08, 2014 at 06:46

A winch is only useful if it can pull in the right direction.
That usually means backwards, for us.

This is a Warn 16.5Ti.

Also, the other gear (extensions, snatch blocks etc) are as important as the winch itself.

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 Motorhome

AnswerID: 535641

Reply By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jul 08, 2014 at 21:01

Tuesday, Jul 08, 2014 at 21:01

There is a lot of bull#@!t running arround about winches.

#1..Safe Working Load does not aplly to recovery winches.....it is a very specific legally defined term that applies to industrial lifting equipment.

Winches have a maximim line pull......and there IS no safety factor or means to apply one to the winch its self.

Nearly every winch will fail if operated at its maximum capacity for an extended peroid.
Most will even fail if operated at half their rated load continuously.
The message is 30 second bursts.

These recovery winches are engineered right at the limits of what is possible...none of the rules that apply to lifting equipment can be applied to recovery winches......recovery winches scare the willies out of many people involved in industrial lifting and industrial safety.

Just consider most of these winches have approximately 6 horespower motors that will pull over 400 amps at stall.........that is realy near the limits of what you will practically pull out of 12 volts.

So you need to have the strongest line pull you can reasonably have.....both to extend the life of the winch and to make it usefull.

for a 3.5 tonne vehicle I would not consider a 9500Lb ( 4 tonne winch).
Most in serious 4wd circles are putting 12000 lb winches on landcrusers and patrolls these days

most of the 12000 lb winches will have the same or similar motor as a similar model 9500 lb winch...just geared slower.

When you are stuck.....you want out......most of us the line speed is not an issue...4 1/2 minutes total winching time or 6...makes no difference to most

Now I know you have been sold the idea that Warn are a quality product.....sorry I don't believe it......they are grossly overpriced and compared to many of the better chineese winches under performing.

The better of the chinese machines are very good and better made than the warn.

Many of the chinese winches have far better realy boxes than warn have.....unless thay have changed recently they are still peresisting with the same old tin pot realys that they have used for decades....the better chinese winches have purpose built single block winch realays with far higher contact ratings.

two bits of advice
Do not skimp on the size of the cables connecting the winch
Very seriuosly consider getting Dinema rope on your winch..its much lighter and much safer...about half the weight of your winch will be cable if you have steel rope.

serioulsy consider the better chinese winches.....you will get more for your money and a better winch.

so you will be able to affory a 12000Lb winch and the synthetic rope....and maybe a winch each end of the vehicle for the price you will pay for Warn.

cheers

AnswerID: 535714

Follow Up By: Bigfish - Wednesday, Jul 09, 2014 at 19:48

Wednesday, Jul 09, 2014 at 19:48

Concur with Bantam. Had 2 warns...both let me down with knackered internals from water ingress ...lack of waterproofing. BOTH HAD NEVER BEEN SUBMERGED...Rain in tropics had gotten in. Last winch was a 12000lb Chinese, dyneema rope, 2 speed, remote control and lasted 2 years before I sold the rig with the winch. Used many times and performed faultlessly. Could have bought 3 of these winches for the price of a 12000lb warn. Oh yes...half the weight as well(probably the rope helped). Terrain Tamer was the brand name. They were also fitted to many Aboriginal community cars and the head mechanic said they had bugger all issues with them. If they local community proof..they are bullet proof!!

In my humble opinion.

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Jul 09, 2014 at 22:24

Wednesday, Jul 09, 2014 at 22:24

From what I understand, the terain tamer winches are chineese made but they are partrly dismantled and reassembeld in Australia.

I know a lot of people who have baught the sub $600 9500lb aldi winches and found then to be just fine.....though a bit of attention with a spanner on installation is recomended.....replecing the realy box with one of the better units is also common....But the standard realy box is about as well built as the warn.

There are a lot of the better chinese winches about and lot of people running them..some in competition.

cheers

FollowupID: 819690