Campsite safety

Submitted: Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 17:54
ThreadID: 109374 Views:2672 Replies:5 FollowUps:34
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I was wondering what to do with the the LPG cylinder while camping obviously you would not store the cylinder in the car if leaving the campsite for an extended period of time so would you just leave it in the the tent and risk it being taken or find a way to secure it?
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Reply By: Coenen N & G (WA) - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 18:16

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 18:16
Never had one stolen yet, though we do put it inside the kitchen area and not just out in the open.
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Reply By: Gronk - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 18:23

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 18:23
Why woudn't you store it in the car ??

There's no problem sitting them in the sun all day, so in the car isn't a problem if heat is your worry..
AnswerID: 538521

Follow Up By: John S17 - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 18:40

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 18:40
I'm just worried about the heat build up in the car they say it can get hot in a car very quickly
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Follow Up By: Member - Barnray (NSW) - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 18:41

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 18:41
It is illegal to carry a gas bottle inside a vehicle. Barnray
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 19:18

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 19:18
Precisely where is it illegal Barnray? Ventilation is the key, as well as the obvious - no leaks.
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Follow Up By: Les PK Ranger - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 07:12

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 07:12
Note that in any situation, you must keep lpg gas cylinders upright at all times, otherwise the relief valve doesn't work if temperature / pressure is enough to cause it to operate.

Re to OP, I wouldn't have thought gas cyls would be high end enough for even scum to risk stealing one, but as noted best not to leave anything outside at camp.
Inside a camper awning / tent annexe etc should be ok, but I guess you never know the way society is headed.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:27

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:27
They would probably steal the tent & leave the gas bottle behind!

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Follow Up By: Pushy - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 11:10

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 11:10
Bazooka,

In QLD it is illegal to carry a gas cylinder in a car apart from directly to and from the filling depot. We also have the rule that cylinders in transport must have a plug inserted.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 13:29

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 13:29
Can't see anywhere where he said he was going to carry it in the car....he only wants to store it there while away from the campsite !!!!

As said, can't see a problem with it ??

In a car at say 60 deg would be no different to out in the sun at say 35 deg ( with sunshine hitting it )..
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Follow Up By: Les PK Ranger - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 14:50

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 14:50
Gronk, only a couple of replies mentioned in the car, and it is relevant as the OP might take it with him in the vehicle as an option to leaving it.

As long as cylinders are upright all the time, in any situation, the pressure relief valves will work if needed, but of course in a vehicle it will be bad with fumes, so best stored out of a pax cabin anyway.
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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 15:18

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 15:18
If it's stored in a car and it gets hot enough to vent, When you open the door causing the interior light to come on can be enough to cause a large bang.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 19:56

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 19:56
How's the interior light going to cause an explosion ??

I haven't seen a light globe spark when it turns on ??

Or a door switch ??

Listen, gas is dangerous when it escapes, but a gas bottle isn't going to vent inside a hot car..
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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 21:15

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 21:15
If you ever did a Dangerous Goods course to cart fuel and Gas you would see photos and films of a plumbers van blown to pieces because of a gas leak over night and when he opened the door in the morning BANG.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 21:29

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 21:29
Dave, that was an acetylene cylinder.
But yes, it can be that simple. But perhaps not so dramatic with LPG.
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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 21:31

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 21:31
Check out this.
Bang

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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 22:08

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 22:08
LPG isn't as dramatic, But I still wouldn't like to be the one opening the door when it went off.
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Follow Up By: John S17 - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 03:21

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 03:21
Yes dave an interior light contains a spark and will ignite the gas
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 16:23

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 16:23
An interior light contains a spark ?????

There is a filiment in a globe....which heats up....and is surrounded by glass....which is sealed to the atmosphere !!!

C'mon fellas........he's going to turn the valve off and put a small gas bottle in the car....and yes, there is a one in one million chance that some how the gas is going to escape and some how a spark is going to happen and blow him to smithereens....fair dinkum you lot ???
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Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 16:38

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 16:38
The spark is created at the door switch or the interior light switch it, then if there is gas present with in the right mix with air we have BOOM.

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Follow Up By: Gronk - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 19:09

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 19:09
Have a look at a door switch next time you operate it and tell us if you see a spark !! you won't because they a nearly all sealed these days..

Highly flammable gas needs a spark, but it needs to be of high enough energy to ignite something..similar to methane in a coal mine !!
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Follow Up By: Member - Barnray (NSW) - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 19:33

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 19:33
Gronk there are many make and brake switches in your vehicle that are not sealed but will get a build up of gas in them over a period, so even when the door is opened and gas level reduced they are an ignition point or detonator so if you want to keep your bottle inside go for your life but have a good think about it. Barnray
ps the ignition switch is one of them.B
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 20:02

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 20:02
Gronk,

Sometimes in life an opportunity to learn comes along. This is one such opportunity for you.

I have spent a lifetime working in the electrical industry. Many of those years were in the petroleum, oil and gas industries working with electrics in potentially explosive environments. We called it Hazardous Area electrics. So you might expect that I picked up a clue or two.

Believe me Gronk, there are two realities in this.......
1) If a flammable or explosive gas is involved, it may one day escape into the immediate environment and,
2) If there are electrics present which have not been designed to operate in that hazardous environment, they will one day ignite the said gasses.
It's rather like 'Murphy's Law'. If it can go wrong, one day it will.

Take a look at these switches:
The first is a typical auto door switch. Does it look "sealed" to you?


And this is a switch suitable for explosive gas environments.


Do you still think that a switch like the first is OK for an explosive gas environment?


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Allan

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Follow Up By: Gronk - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 23:07

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 23:07
Hey mate, I've worked as an electrical fitter in a coal mine all my life, so I know all about hazerdous zones....and as you'll know, the gas needs to be a certain percentage and it also needs a spark or flame of a certain energy level to ignite that gas..

It may have happened before , but I don't recall seeing an explosion from a propane bottle in a car/van/truck ?? A careless tradesman leaving an acetylene bottle turned on maybe ??

The lower and upper flammable range of propane is approx 2 to 9.5% concentration in air...so a fairly small window to actually ignite.....where as acetylene it's from 2.5 all the way to 100%....so acetylene is like a bomb compared to propane.

You'd have to be VERY unlucky to ignite propane.

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Follow Up By: John S17 - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 03:20

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 03:20
Either way I won't have anywhere else to put the cylinder except the inside of the car since there is nowhere to secure it on the outside of my vehicle during transport unless putting it in a luggage pod on the roof is considered safer than the inside of the car !
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 07:54

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 07:54
Hey Gronk, what's the percentage for hazardous gaseous rear end emissions? I'm worried about personally induced explosions now...
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Follow Up By: Slow one - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 08:27

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 08:27
Maybe you can see the spark of a switch being used under load in complete darkness, I know many times I can.

I can't see sparks from mobile phones either but here are a few examples.

Guess all that expensive flameproof gear they use in gas plants and gas lines can be replaced with non flameproof units.

Here are some quotes about mobile phones in flammable environments.

The Shell Oil Company recently issued a warning about three incidents where Mobile Phones have ignited fumes while being answered or ringing during fueling operations. What specifically happened

Case 1
The phone was placed on the car's trunk lid during fueling, it rang and the ensuing fire destroyed the car and the gasoline pump.

Case 2
An individual suffered severe burns to their face when fumes ignited as they answered a call while refueling their car.

Case 3
An individual suffered burns to the thigh and groin as fumes ignited when the phone, which was in their pocket, rang while they were fueling their car.

What should you learn from this?

It is a misconception that Mobile Phones are intrinsically safe and can't ignite fuel/fumes. Mobile phones that light up when switched on, or when they ring, have enough energy released to provide a spark for ignition. Mobile phones should not be used in filling stations, or when fueling lawn mowers, boats etc.

Mobile phones should not be used around other materials that generate flammable or explosive fumes or dust (i.e. solvents, chemicals, gases, grain dust etc.). Mobile phones should be turned off before entering an area where other materials that generate flammable or explosive fumes or dust is located.

Please share this with employees who do not have access to email, family members and friends to help keep everyone safe.

This is a good video of dc being switched under load.




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Follow Up By: Gronk - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 10:54

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 10:54
Hey mikehzz, I don't know the answer to your question....maybe depends on what you've been eating ????? but there certainly has been some hot air concerning this post.....

John S17, just put the bottle in the car, make sure the valve is turned off tight and stop worrying....
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 11:42

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 11:42
Lol the old mobile phone at servos myth rears its ugly head yet again. Google will quickly debunk that nonsense for anyone interested. Here's Dr Karl's take:

Dr Karl debunks the mobile phone myth

If I was John I'd worry just enough to check his bottle for leaks, make sure there's some air circulation where possible during transport, and remove the bottle at his destination.

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FollowupID: 823184

Follow Up By: John S17 - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 12:32

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 12:32
Yes gronk your right I'm not too worried I was only wondering because I've never camped before this is my fist go at it im sorry to have sparked so much debate .my cylinder is brand new so it's ok to transport inside the car
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Follow Up By: Les PK Ranger - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 12:37

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 12:37
Slow one, just re the part of your post re mobile phones . . .
False info on mobiles igniting petrol fumes & Shell
Static yes, from synthetic materials when worn and retrieving something from a car.
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FollowupID: 823192

Follow Up By: Slow one - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 13:22

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 13:22
Thanks Les.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 20:14

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 20:14
Debate is good....as long as it stays on subject.......and even though some of it may not apply to your exact scenario , the info is sometimes good to read and learn by...
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Reply By: Chris_K - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 19:49

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 19:49
If you have a camper trailer, perhaps get a bicycle chain with a combo lock and chain it to your wheel. If you don't have a camper trailer, and the car is still there - perhaps chain it to the car wheel? It won't solve the problem if someone is keen to take it - it will just stop the opportunistic.

Chris
AnswerID: 538527

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 07:44

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 07:44
But do try to remember to unchain it from the wheel before driving off!
LOL
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Allan

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Follow Up By: Les PK Ranger - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:58

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:58
I think you'll know it's there pretty quick . . . hmm, might also double as a vehicle theft deterrent :) :D
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Follow Up By: Chris_K - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 09:16

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 09:16
Maybe we should re-think that strategy...your wheel might get flogged as well!! :)
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Reply By: Bazooka - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 19:59

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 19:59
This is what the NSW Work Cover doc says in regard to safe handling of small LPG cylinders: "Cylinders should be unloaded immediately on arrival at the destination (unless a
purpose built ventilated compartment or cabinet is used inside the vehicle)."
AnswerID: 538529

Reply By: Shaker - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 20:10

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 20:10
You seem to be very nervous about LPG, maybe you should at alternate fuels, such as diesel for cooking & heating!

AnswerID: 538530

Follow Up By: Shaker - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 20:14

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 20:14
Edit ...... maybe you should consider alternate fuels .....

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