Winch Alternatives

Submitted: Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 20:20
ThreadID: 109377 Views:6134 Replies:11 FollowUps:17
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I have had multiple vehicles all with Warn winches and never once have I used one in anger - Old Telegraph, High Country, Canning!! Have always concentrated on having the very best vehicle and tyres and not getting too stuck!

I am now thinking of a new Landcruiser 200 which will spend a little less time in the rough and more time on tarmac - do I need a winch mounted on a steel bar or is there a smart "portable" option other than hand operated? That is the question....

Warn certainly have portables but they are 40-50 kgs - maybe the answer but any other suggestions appreciated. One clear advantage of a portable is the ability to pull both ways....

Ideas????

Rob

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Reply By: mikehzz - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 21:43

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 21:43
What about a Bush Winch? Works forwards or backwards.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 01:12

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 01:12
The Bush Winch interests me.
Has anyone here actually used one?
I seem to remember something similar many years ago on a station or farm somewhere.
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: gbc - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 07:00

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 07:00
Got diff locks? You're going to need them to actuate the "winch". Then you have to dig it down to where you are bogged. In an ideal world they are awesome. I doubt the reality would be as fun. The department my wife works in looked hard in this direction a few years back when bull bars and winches were banned from prados and hiluxs until mr toyota changed the front axle loads. They ended up going with tirfors.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 07:34

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 07:34
Thanks gbc,
Can you explain why diff locks would be necessary?
You often need to dig a bit when bogged.
Have you actually used them?
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Allan

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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:27

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:27
You'll need diff locks if you only want to use 1 anchor point and 1 wheel to winch off. Otherwise the wheel without the winch will be the one turning. Same applies to a centre diff, it should be locked as well. You need an anchor point for each wheel with a winch on it. The rope is designed to break at a max of 3200kg as well. A few downsides but an interesting concept.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:32

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:32
I would have thought that you would always use 2 wheels to winch to avoid slewing.
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Allan

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Follow Up By: gbc - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 09:34

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 09:34
You're right - Off their website the kit looks to be a touch over $2k ! You'd need the bridle to equalise the pull on an unlocked vehicle or the rear diff would play up anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDKY1MwDCWE

Then there's the replacing the smaller than usual dyneema after dragging it through the rocks and catching it on the tyres - and that's in the promo vid with a tree dead ahead - imagine trying to winch over a rock shelf or similar - not going to happen.

I have no doubt that this winch works, but there are a dozen ways I'd go before using one. They take up just as much space and probably just as much weight as a proper hand winch and have less application than an electric winch.

Used without the 'optional' guides I can see mayhem and disaster ensuing, and in rocky country the rope's going to break regularly because of the way it is mounted on the car.

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Follow Up By: Gnomey - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 10:43

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 10:43
A footnote to the Bush Winch discussion. About 20 years ago I got talking to the local autosparky who was ex german army. He described much heavier vehicle recovery with gear like this which attached to the rim. I encouraged him to contact ARB (I went to primary school with Tony Brown). No further info or contact.

Years passed I and saw a version that attached to sunrayasia type rims with a sort of bearing puller device - not, if I recall, an ARB product.

More years pass and here it is again with improvements to the system like the guides and bridle.

It still seems like a good idea, sort of, but if it was more than sort of a good idea I fancy it would have taken off by now.

Cheers
Mark



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Reply By: Member - KBAD - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 21:54

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 21:54
Rob i have had exactly the opposite worked on cattle stations a long time never had a vehicle fitted with a winch got stuck numerous times long lonely walks back once over a day and a half, other times stuck for a few days slowly extracting ourselves out, always wanted a winch. Finally bought one put it on the wagon used it the very next day, I know it might be years before i need it again, i will service it and look after it until then because the day you do need it, it makes all the drama worthwhile. Thought about having one that i can swap around even drew up plans for one but in the end stayed with the front mounted one, (plans were a tow hitch receiver mounted front and back winch on portable cradle with a tow ball tongue) not that you still can't get stuck even with a winch but it beats most other ways of getting unstuck. Have used a hand winch to pull a vehicle out, but in forty plus degree heat and ninety percent humidity, in the middle of the wet, not my favourite way of spending the day.
AnswerID: 538537

Reply By: Mick O - Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 22:16

Tuesday, Sep 02, 2014 at 22:16
Rob, my theory about a winch is always put yourself in a position that avoids you having to use the thing in the first place. In the five 4x4 vehicles I've owned in 34 years I've used my winch twice. Once to pull myself out of a bog...see below



and the other time to pull anpother EO member out (backwards) from a bog somehwere deep in the Great Sandy Desert.

Heh HehClick me - Sorry Petey :-)

Better to have and not need than need and not have. Warne??, check out this thread and don't spend a million.

Winches - When to support and when to walk

Cheers Mick
''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
Richard Maurice - 1903

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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 09:25

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 09:25
I'm wondering whether a exhaust jack would of been easier for the above purpose?

I have a 12000 pound winch at the front of the 80 series, only ever used it to pull stumps out of the garden and 2 recoveries, a Triton from a slippery slope with the help of Max Trax and a 3 ton 100 series out of quick sand, having said that, I required 2 other 4wd's attached behind me to act as anchors.

I have every recovery item with the exception of a sand anchor, which is on the list.

I consider all my recovery gear as insurance and a more relaxing get away knowing I'm prepared.

Having said that, always travel with another vehicle if possible.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:12

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 08:12
Very hard to beat a winch , but if you don't go where they are needed or don't travel alone then I guess it doesn't matter as much.

But we do and I couldn't imagine travelling without one.

Already this year we have extracted a 200 series and our neighour abandoned his 200 and took the chopper home from the Canning.

Nothing provides traction like a set of chains in HC so consider that.
(and Maxtrax for dessert)

Our winch installation on our GU was without a heavy steel bar and added 28kg only in nett weight.

Our winch can pull backwards , and the GU is lighter than a 200 series and can easily fit lockers.

Overall our GU 4800 can go further than a 200 series and with less weight winch is more effective on it - so a lot depends on how good your installation is.
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Willy W - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 18:01

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 18:01
Robin, can you tell us about the circumstances around the fella taking a chopper out of the CSR and leaving his car behind?
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 19:10

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 19:10
Fascinating story that was Willy , and all the circumstances surrounding us meeting our new neighbour.

Its thread 103923 and as the thread unfolds you will see how we got independant confirmation of the events.

He is a good neighbour now - just a litle enthusiastic at times !
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: River Swaggie - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 12:03

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 12:03
Hi Micko

Always wanted to try the tyre thingy down at a beach recovery.. Might get there one day.. Lol


Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 12:13

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 12:13
Never let a chance go by hey Robin? Somehow only you can turn a "which winch" thread into "A 4800 petrol GU beats a diesel 200 in so many ways" discussion lol.

Go for it Robin. LOL.



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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 18:31

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 18:31
Yea BooBook - I will be wishing I had a 200 series soon as we will be exploring in the Simpson and I'm getting nervous because the plan calls for fuel consumption of 30lt/100k or less - I have already started biting my finger nails as there will be no support cars with petrol.

If I don't make it can you tell them to bury me next to my Gu.

Hi Swaggie I think you follow up is in the wrong place.
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 18:48

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 18:48
LOL you can always fire up the EPIRP.

Anyway, I have no doubt that your planning would be meticulous and you 'll have at least one Jerry left over at the end of the trip.

If you have to get towed that last 80km by a 200 don't forget the photos.

Have a good trip and get another jerry for fathers day.
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Reply By: Penchy - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 09:38

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 09:38
better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
AnswerID: 538547

Reply By: Ken Rd - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 09:49

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 09:49
All good and valuable comments, thank you. The issue with the Bull bar around the city is that they are pretty intimidating but have just discovered that ARB might have the answer..http://www.arb.com.au/products/arb-protection-equipment/bull-bars/sahara-bars/3915150/

Effectively the lower half of a steel bar, so it can take a winch + a nudge bar. Looks ok and other than hitting a camel will protect against 90% of animal strikes....

Rob
AnswerID: 538548

Reply By: Malcolm 02 - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 10:23

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 10:23
When Living on Groote Eylandt (1993 - 2004) my wife and I would prefer camping by ourselves (less compromises required), so for safety I decided that I needed a winch. The 4WD I had then had a bull bar already fitted that wasn't winch compatible so I bought a Tirfor style winch with a pulley in case extra pulling power was required. Needed it 3 times in that period and found that it took 15 - 20 minutes to get out, use and pack up again, which I estimate would be about 5 - 10 minutes longer than a bar mounted winch recovery would have taken. To me the important part was to not bury the winch under your gear so you cant get at it easily.
I made up a box open at one end so I could open the rear door and slide out the winch, handle, rope and shackle, straps, etc. without disturbing the rest of the camping gear. Those with draws wouldn't need to do that.
For those that ask me about wether they should have a winch my answer has always been that you may never need to use it in anger, but it will give you confidence to go places that you would otherwise not because the risk of getting stuck is too high.

Hope my experience is of benefit to you.
Mal
AnswerID: 538551

Reply By: FatGaz - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 14:25

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 14:25
I have seen portable or boat winches advertised.
Would something like that do the job??

They usually come with a towball mount and should also be able to hook onto a front recovery point.
I have never used one, so would like someone with more knowledge give an opinion.

I think they are only 5000lb rated.
AnswerID: 538565

Follow Up By: gbc - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 17:47

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 17:47
No. For a start boat winches are rated differently to 4wd winches. 5000lb is the weight of the boat which is floating then dragged up a small incline onto the trailer. Sneaky buggers eh.

Electric winches are rated at best possible line pull for ten odd wraps - everything goes downhill from there.
Hand winches used for rigging (tirfors etc)are rated at a measly 1.6 t., however that is dead lift with a safety factor. You can comfortably pick your car up with one. Not recommended with a boat winch.
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 08:58

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 08:58
A portable winch can be a good option. Works at the rear as well as the front and doesn't hang permanently right at the wagon's front. Doesn't take a bath on every river crossing. Google winch cradle. BYO winch.
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Reply By: mikehzz - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 18:08

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 18:08
I know a couple of guys with hitch mounted normal winches that slot into the towbar receiver. Some have put a towbar receiver on the front of the car as well as the back so they can winch forward or back. You really need a ute to carry the unit and it isn't light.

Detachable winch receiver
AnswerID: 538572

Follow Up By: Member - KBAD - Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 18:53

Wednesday, Sep 03, 2014 at 18:53
Which is why i didn't go that path, to big and bulky to handle comfortably and store.
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FollowupID: 823082

Reply By: pop2jocem - Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 09:30

Thursday, Sep 04, 2014 at 09:30
I think the principle of having what I have heard referred to as a "multi mount" style of winch whereby you can store the unit out of the elements and attach it front or rear as required is great in theory but presents some, maybe not insurmountable, problems. Mainly the weight that is needed to be lugged into place when needed. 30 or so kg for a reasonable capacity winch. A considerable weight saving if synthetic rope is used of course. Not that hard to do for two reasonably fit people and doable for one on a nice flat firm surface. Unfortunately we seldom get bogged on such a surface. Usually slippery uneven sand, mud or rocks.
If I could work out such a system I might be tempted to build one that doesn't see me wearing a back brace for whatever is left of my life.
Then there is the problem of what to attach the other end of the rope to. Never seen one of those ground anchors used in person but they also don't look like a particularly light weight bit of kit and a nice sturdy tree or rock is not always available.
The good old "bury the spare wheel" option is possible a la Mick O but not always practical in some ground types.

Cheers
Pop
AnswerID: 538589

Reply By: JR - Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 09:18

Friday, Sep 05, 2014 at 09:18
With a multimount, Dont for get the extra weight of HEAVY cables to send 200-400 A to the back of the vehicle.
Winch in a frame takes up a lot of room and wouldnt be much fun in an accident or rollover
AnswerID: 538639

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