Makita 18V Impact Tool

Forgot to say it had enough grunt to do up the towbar bolts to the chassis and to undo and re tighten the bull bar mounts no trouble.
Even slightly rusted ones came off ok.

4wd and caravans certainly dont need anywhere near the tightness that a truck does.

If you go around your rig with a long bar and a torque wrench and retighten all the wheel nuts to the correct torque you will not have any trouble removing and replacing them with a rattle gun.

If a muppet at a tyre centre has done them up till they stretch you will have trouble.
As I said a Cruiser only needs 125lb and the mags on the van only needed 90 as do mags on the Cruiser.
Certainly within the capabilities of an impact wrench.

We also have the Milwaukee 18v wrenches and drills and they are pretty good. Have been using them to stick 100mm screws into hardwood posts and they do it no trouble. Batteries are great, they go all day putting roofing screws in.

Yes buy impact sockets of good quality as cheap ones can shatter in a rattle gun.
Trade Tools do a set of 4 plastic covered ones to protect mags for under $30. Bursons charged $22 for the Cruiser one.

of course light vehicles don't require their wheen nuts to be done up as tight as big trucks.

But the fact remains that a breaker bar beats an impact tool every time......and they are a hell of a lot cheaper.

a 500mm breaker bar.....from supercheap $23 and a 21mm socket (or what ever suits your nuts) $14 from supercheap......will undo any light vehicle wheel nut tightened anywhere within the realms of reality with very little effort

cheers

You are right as far as that goes but some people have arthritic hands and cant grip a bar but can hold a gun with both hands..

When you get old you tend to lose strength in extremities LOL

I have had them tightened so much i have had to virtually jump on a long bar to undo them.

Now when vehicle is serviced I wont let them do the wheels after having a set of mags scratched by a careless mechanic.

very litlle gripping required....& I have always used my boot on wheel braces

I always scratch my head when I see people pulling up on a wheel brace.

BTW do not be affraid to use a bar and a length of pipe to undo wheel nuts.

leverage will always win...longer bar, more leverage, less effort, more control.

cheers

My fingers pack up quickly so can't get all the nuts off without aches.

I crack the nuts using one of those bars that have a sliding handle to make it longer. I then use an everyday cordless drill to whiz the nuts off. I do the same in reverse, that way I can control nut tightness using torque wrench and my fingers don't drop off!

Lube all wheel nuts and you wont have as much grief next time.

From a USA tyre forum Tyrerack is a huge tyre seller in the USA

01-11-2010, 08:12 AM
Luke@tirerack is offline
Moderator and Tire God


Anti-sieze on a lug bolt is a very bad idea !!!

Here's why: Bolts or studs provide clamping force by being purposely stretched. Most torque specs bring a bolt well within its elastic limit. Then when loosened they will return to their original length and can be safely reused (Some bolts, including many head bolts, are purposely stretched past their elastic limit, and can not be reused). The torque wrench is the most convenient-but not the most accurate-method of properly stretching
automotive bolts. Engineers spend hours correlating the proper bolt stretch to the required turning effort.

About 90% of a torque specification is used to overcome friction; only 10% of the specified twisting effort provides clamping force. It is no surprise then that most lubricant tables recommend a 40-45% reduction of applied torque when using
anti-sieze on a bolt. So, a lugbolt coated with anti-sieze should be tightened to a maximum of 49 ft-lbs. Tightening this lugnut to 85 ft-lbs. means it is now over-torqued by 73%! Considering that most torque specs stretch a bolt to within 70% of its elastic limit, over-torquing by 73% will easily send the bolt or stud well beyond its elastic limit-and could be dangerously close to its failure point.

For this reason I would suggest to all forum members to never use anti-seize on your lug hardware.

When I was driving buses we got a crate of spare rims that were painted and the mechanic spent quite a few hours scraping the paint off both sides of them.
I asked why and he said ANYTHING between the rims and the hubs or nuts would allow them to loosen.
He also said NEVER LUBE the nuts especially the mating faces of them. Good enough for me. In 58 years of owning vehicles I have never lubricated wheel studs or nuts.
Never had a wheel loosen either.

Thanks Tomh - interesting comment about never lubing nuts etc.

I have never had a nut come loose in over 40 years of driving - 25 of which are in Cruisers.

But I see where you're coming from - its friction that keeps things tight and right.

I'm with TomH on that. NEVER put any lubricant on a torqued thread UNLESS it is specced for it. Head bolts sometimes are, sometimes not (which can be hard to achieve ...).

Actual TomH....... not quite correct, different anti seizing and lubricant have different torque reduction %.

Using the Tyrerack as an example and their reasoning has more to do with their liability and risk then whether it's safe or not safe to do it.

Ther is nothing wrong with using Neversieze, lubricant or loctite of any fastener as long as you follow their procedures.

Have a look at this...
http://www.bostik-us.com/sites/default/files/N1%20NeverSeez%20Brochure%202011.pdf

Most reputable companies can provide this information.

Torque rating are also determined by materials used for the nut, bolt, base material your clamping to and operational heat.

Classic example alloy vs steel rims, there can be a torque difference of up to 50%...... but yes it still comes back to achieving the correct thread stretch.

How many people have gone from steel to alloy and alloy to steel and not altered torque amounts....... I would say many and most don't have a problem with wheels coming loose or breaking studs.


I am with Bantam with using a breaker bar, that's all we use when traveling...... a 600mm long 1/2 breaker bar and I have never had a problem....... most people can apply enough force to not over tighten wheel studs but more importantly enough force can be applied to not make them come loose.

In our workshop we undo wheel stubs with a rattle gun and do them back up with a rattle gun using torque tubes with the final tightening done with a calibrated torque wrench and a white paint marker.

Some may find this interesting....

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=229718

Im not arguing, Just cut and pasting from what could be said to be an expert His figures not mine.

I do know the difference between mags and steels as per my previous posts.

The info can also be obtained by reading the book that is never read.
The vehicle manual which tells you all these things.

This whole "never lubricate" idea has to be a crock.

As soon as I see the word "never" I get suspicious.

The vast majority of wheel nuts on pasenger vehicle will " never" be tightened to torque specification......most people would not even know what the specified torque felt like......not even close.

( note to self..whip out torque wrench and have a go at the well nuts on my vehicles out of interest)

From manufacture, wheel studs will not be dry.....if they where they would be rusty.

I've only in recent years started lubricating wheel nuts myself....I believed the crock for years.

The trucking company I worked for for a short period religeously lubricated wheel nuts......and they where not fussy what with..mostly engine oil from an oil can......every wheel, every time.
They had been doing it for years.....small company...but across 8 prime movers and 20 something trailers.....never lost a wheel, never has one come loose.....and they torqued every nut every time with a torque wrench.
The owner worked for one of the big gravel companies as a mechanic and fleet controller for many years before setting out on his own.
He got the practice from them.

when the wheel nut is new and in perfect condition.....you may be able to argue the fairly fine point about torque and such...but as soon as there is a bit of wear and tear on a whell stud...all that goes out the window.....add a bit of corrosion and all bets are off.

Fact is torque on dry threads is very inconsistent and there is no way arround that.

some lubricant on any thread on any bolt will improve its performance and longevity.

as soon as we have a thread in some sort of harsh environment, lubrication is a no brainer...
if you have a boat trailer and you do not lubricate you wheel nuts...you have rocks in your head.....
if you have a 4wd and you take it off road and do water crossings and don't lubricate your wheel nuts you have rocks in your head
The same for trailers and vans too.

This "don't lubricate wheel nuts" thing I think will turn out to be one of those great myths.

I have not had a wheell come off or come loose due to lubrication.....I have not heard of one proven case where a wheel has come off or come loose from lubrication......but I have had and seen cases where wheel nuts have corroded, pulled threads , had to be replaced for multiple reasons and come undone because people did not tighten them properly.

I think this do not lubricate thing is a crock.

SO..tell me..anyone.....
Have you seen a proven case where lubrication has been responsible for some sort of wheel or wheel nut failure.

Have you seen any properly reasoned technical document detailing tests of lubricated V non lubricated wheel nut preformance

anybody.

cheers

oc1, IF you have lubricated torque figures - which will be lubricant-specific - then it's different story.

I haven't seen wheel stud failure which I could attribute to lubrication, but I have experienced first-hand a couple of bolts which necked and failed when torqued to specification (which made no reference to lube) simply because the threads were oiled.

In normal service the typical vehicle nuts/studs will be torqued dry (if they are torqued at all). And if they have been fitted at a "tyre centre" then they will probably be over-torqued and with all sorts of brake dust etc on the threads. But not lubricated.

Your experience and YMMV.

LandCruiser owners manual tells you not to lube to wheel studs.
So I stopped doing it - just keep the threads clean.

I don't think it makes much difference either way and Phil the main reason Toyota say dry is to limit their liability and the general public getting it wrong.

On my own vehicles I always do and on customers vehicles I don't......... It's a liability thing as if anything does go wrong the investigation will always default to the manufactures specifications.

Most manufactures will always stay on the side of caution and not recommend anything.

And TomH..... He is a tyre sales person, not an engineer and I am pretty sure his insurance company and attorney (as they get issue at birth) would of advised him to say nothing more.

Vehicle manufactures would of done a risk assessment on to lube or not to lube and calculated the risk of not lubing less then lubing by the unskilled general public.......... On an engineering perspective the decision may be different.

Are you an engineer with experience in bolt stretching dynamics

I have never seen a wheel come loose because the threads were lubricated - and I've been doing up and undoing thousands of wheel nuts for over 50 years on everything from low-loaders to car trailers.

However, I have experienced numerous wheel stud failures due to dry threads "picking up" (metal galling) and buggering up the stud and nut completely.
And I have experienced wheelnuts coming loose - because they were never properly tightened in the first place, usually because the person doing the nut tightening was rushed.

Lubricating the threads on a stud does reduce the amount of torque required to tighten a wheel stud to the correct amount of stud stretch - however, it's usually only in the order of about 10% less torque required.
You can get this amount of torque variation due to friction on dry threads.

Wheel studs are very high tensile low alloy steel - typically Grade 8 in imperial specs, and Grade 10.9, the equivalent in Metric specs.
These high tensile studs have a tensile strength of around 150,000 psi or 1034Mpa.

When a high tensile fastener is torqued to manufacturer specifications, the stud or bolt actually stretches a little. This is called "elastic deformation". When the nut is undone, the elastic deformation is released and the stud or bolt returns to its normal length.

When the stud or bolt stretches under full torque load, it's applying a clamping force to the two sections being held together.
This clamping force prevents excessive loading on the stud or bolt when an impact is applied.

Thus, if a stud and nut is loose, an impact of 1 tonne on the joint will transfer a load of 1 tonne to the shank of the stud.
If the stud and nut are torqued to the correct torque, an impact of 1 tonne on the joint, will transfer only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of that 1 tonne, to the shank of the stud.

Elastic deformation limits are where the stud or bolt is over-tightened and the stud or bolt is stretched to the point where it does not return to its original length, when the nut is undone.

You can easily pick up stretch damage to wheel studs and bolts by placing a straight edge or a set of vernier calipers along the threads.
On a good stud or bolt, the straight edge or caliper jaws touches the top of ALL the threads.

On a stretched, damaged stud or bolt, there will be at least 2 or three threads where there is a GAP (daylight, when held up to the light) between the straight edge or caliper jaws, and the tops of the threads.

It's often wrongly thought that vibration alone loosens nuts or fasteners. In closely studied tests, it's been found that sideways MOVEMENT between mating faces on the nut or bolt, and on the surface being clamped, are the major reason why fasteners come loose.

Here's a site that is a complete and knowledgeable site about the science of fasteners.

Bolt Science

TomH QUOTED [Are you an engineer with experience in bolt stretching dynamics].

An engineer is a very open term and means very little in the real world....yes have qualifications and over 30 years experience in heavy vehicle and earthmoving maintenance and repairs, for the last 16 years have run own business employing people specializing in heavy vehicle and earthmoving plus have workshop for cars and light vehicle...... so to your question no I have very little experience with fasteners and would not have a clue what I am talking about..... like you I just looked it up on Google and used someone else knowledge to make me sound good..... and you?

It's typical now of this whole forum!

As Landcruiser wheelnuts only need 125lb for steels and 90lb for mags I would think you are overtightening

I had one of those and when doing the nuts up I spun it up to give only one hit when tight and then did the rest with a torque wrench If you hit it with more than 2 or 3 hits they will be overtight by quite a bit.

If you want to hold it there and let it whack away at the nuts then I may agree with you. I go around (crosswise if you know what I mean) and then let it hit once or twice ONLY. No! I do not believe that I am overtightening them.

As I said "I don't over do it and seem to get the nuts tighter then I can with the standard wheel brace yet not as tight as the boys at the tyre shop." I can actually loosen the nuts with the standard wheel brace. I don't need a breaker bar. If I did need one, then I may agree with you but in my case I believe you are wrong. Sorry but appreciate the comment.

Perhaps you should try checking with a torque wrench and see how different each nut could be using the KCI.

Thats why I stopped doing what you do and hoping they are all the same. They werent. What poundage do you have on them????

Without a torque wrench its all guesswork.

Doesnt matter what you can loosen them with its all about evenness when tightening them. two hits with my KCI was over the recommended tightness for my steel wheels.
Your car your life I guess but after several tests I believe I am correct.
Nuts all varied in tightness with same number of hits.

My comment about loosening them off was to show how they weren't overtightened. As lons as they stay on and are not too tight or loose then I am happy. It's not like they are on the shoes that hold a bearing sleeve in place on the crank.

I use the same gizmo to undo them. Is that okay with you? Or should I get something else like a big long bar to do it with. One that is calibrated in centimeters so that I can work out the leverage ratio.

The KCI has and will do me fine. I don't need nor want that accuracy. Too pedantic for me mate

Cheers