Evidentley the 3.2l 5cyl ford engine does have oil pump issues!

Submitted: Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 20:48
ThreadID: 109727 Views:25781 Replies:12 FollowUps:47
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Heard it from the horses mouth, at a mazda service centre,as I was standing beside one of there customers, who wanted to do his own oil changes, and was advised to forget it as if the correct procedure wasn't followed it could be a disaster. So the fact that if oil drains from the pump it cant prime its self, is defintley a fact not rumour!

Needless to say the correct procedure could be learn't by a good Diy, but for those that don't know, a scary situation with those engines!



Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: Slow one - Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 21:43

Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 21:43
Not really this is old news. 10 minutes after draining the sump of the ranger or bt 50 then refill.



AnswerID: 539968

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 08:27

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 08:27
No different to a lot of other vehicles whereby set procedures have to be followed to carry out otherwise simple tasks.

10 minutes is a long time to drain oil for a light vehicle.

I am sure there will be some who would use this as a excuses not to by one sighting it as a defect and poor design.

And as usual only those who don't own them will get on the band wagon making it sound worse then it really is.

We had a service sheet come through about 8 months ago about it...... it would be nice to know if it does happen all the time or if it is just a safety precaution that it could happen.

End of the day how long do you need to take to drain the oil...... once it's drained no more oil will come out....LOL
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Follow Up By: Axle - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 16:38

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 16:38
G/Day Olcoolone,...So what did it state on the service sheet?,...don't leave the plug out for more than a certain time or what?, If so then its come up as a concern somewhere, Mechanics out in the bush may not have the luxury of up todate imformation on late Hitec engines ,a mistake could be very easily made. After a service manager stating to a customer don't attempt to change the oil yourself because of this problem, to me makes it real enough to take notice of,..where would he got the imfomation from and why would he blurt it out,, surely not to just gain a bit more service work? the industry has its pitfalls, but not that bad Yet! I wouldn't think.


Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 17:43

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 17:43
it's not uncommon when servicing or repairing some vehicles if you do follow manufactures instructions, procedures or TSB's you can cause problems or damage....... This has been happening for years.

Something as simple as changing coolant, brake fluid or power steering fluid on some vehicles can lead to costly repairs or big head aches if not done properly.

Most mechanical places are usally members of an organisation where this information is distributed.

We recieved notification about the oil change issue from IAME, Repco Autotech, TAT and Autodata, so it was widely published not forgetting how many forums it has be published on.

Doing anything DIY is always fought with danger whether it's building a fence, tiling or mechanical.

Gone are the days of one procedure fits all. It's nothing new, just another day in the ever changing world of automotive technology.
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Reply By: Ross M - Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 21:49

Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 21:49
G'day Axle

There has been a few horses saying it, but many Forum "Doubting Donkeys", only attack the messenger and try to discredit the whistle blowers who attempt to warn others.

They probably won't apologize for past attacks of ignorance.

Cheers
Ross M

AnswerID: 539970

Follow Up By: Slow one - Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 22:08

Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 22:08
Ross M , who is denying it. Old, old news, I just can't wait till mine fails . Ha, Ha.

Not the bt50 or ranger owners that are aware of it. Not a problem as long as you know about it.

Everything has problems including 100 series V8 petrols and D maxes. LOL.

Great to see the Bunnies win.


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Follow Up By: Alan S (WA) - Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 22:17

Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 22:17
Ross

I don't recall any one denying it, or putting their head in the sand. From memory most of the discussion is around "is this an issue", just put new oil in after you drain the old. As slow one said, all vehicles have their issues.

Alan
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Follow Up By: wholehog - Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 23:22

Sunday, Oct 05, 2014 at 23:22
Yep..old news.

Yeehar the bunnies..:o)
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Follow Up By: Member - Outback Gazz - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 08:06

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 08:06
G'day Ross

Some people have apologized but others aren't man enough to accept it !


Cheers Gazz
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Follow Up By: Axle - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 09:25

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 09:25
G/Day Ross,..I still think its a worry to the ones that don't know, and some work shops with Indians everywhere and one chief wandering around SOMEWHERE!..lol.


Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: pop2jocem - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 06:06

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 06:06
OK so this is "old news" to Mazda/Ford owners of this particular model.
Please educate a potential not too far in the future owner. These vehicles appeared to have many advantages over some other manufacturers offerings. Well on the surface anyway.
Why is this particular oil pump so precious about self priming??
10 minutes to drain and no longer?? What if I forgot and let it go 11 minutes?? What then??
Can the pump be re-primed by a mere mortal or do we call up a team of specialists??
So many possibilities of a disaster!!

(:-((

Cheers
Pop
AnswerID: 539976

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 07:00

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 07:00
Right, bit early in the morning, old grey matter working slower than normal and normal ain't that fast nowadays anyhow.

So if the oil pump has trouble picking up oil if it's prime is lost I'm assuming the pump is not of the flooded design in as much as it is situated well above the normal oil level. This would be nothing out of the ordinary and you wouldn't want it's chain drive whipping your lube oil into an aerated omelette anyway.

It occurred to me then if you left the vehicle stand for some extended time the oil could drain from the pump anyway and although the correct oil level is spot on this pump couldn't self prime.

To me no different to draining and refilling other than it may take a lot longer to drain with a full sump.
How much longer?
??????????????

Cheers
Pop
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Reply By: Slow one - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 06:47

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 06:47
Here is some reading for all and you can see there is no one that posts on the new ford ranger forum that directly had the problem and you can see there is a lot of speculation

Most except that the problem exists but it is not the end of the world. There is a link to Auto Data that did give the description but it has been changed as service centres have to pay for the bulletin.

This is from the Forum.

Oil change info

and this is the bulletin

Field service warning

Funny how someone was standing beside someone when a secret was revealed. LOL.
AnswerID: 539977

Reply By: pop2jocem - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 07:38

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 07:38
This is getting all too hard.
Alternators that only put enough charge into the battery to hopefully enable the next start up.
Fuel systems that kark it if you so much as spit in the tank.
DPF's that plug up if you don't give it a bloody good thrashing now and again.
EGR's that ensure your inlet manifold gets nice and gunked up.
ECU's that put your pride and joy into limp mode if they feel a bit cantankerous.
MAP sensors that want to destroy the engine because their nose's got dirty.
Or was that the one that lives in the exhaust system??

And now the piece de resistance

An oil pump that gets lonely if left to it's own devices for too long.

My old low tech beasty just may get a reprieve.

Cheers
Pop
AnswerID: 539978

Follow Up By: Axle - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 09:09

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 09:09
Ah!, the automotive world we live in Pop!,


Now you have mentioned a lot, Just trying to think of a bit more ..lol.


Cheers Axle
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Follow Up By: Bigfish - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 09:25

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 09:25
Totally agree mate. Brought up on old holdens , fords and simple toyotas. We are so focused on one-up manship by putting more and more gadgets into our vehicles that they are now almost out of the reach of the home mechanic..regardless of how simple a job it used to be. Technology is fine but we are simply overloaded to a a point that is ridiculous. As a communications technician I see it everyday. Can I buy a simple mobile phone ? Nope, have to have all the bells and whistles---extra charge of course!!!

Give me low tech anyday. The money I save I can put into enjoying my life a bit more without getting ripped at dealers and service centers who make a fortune out of cheaply produced electronic gizmos.
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Reply By: Alsub - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 15:36

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 15:36
Some months ago when I first read the Service Warning about an oil change problem with the Volvo engine in the Ranger I thought it was most likely nonsense.

1/ How did Ford (or Mazda or Volvo) manage to start the engine the first time, after the engine had been assembled? Based on the Service Warning, the pump may not prime and therefore some engines would have been damaged.

2/ The Service Warning states that you should not drain the oil longer than 10 minutes. It does not state that you should refill the sump with oil within any specific time. By simply replacing the sump plug to an empty sump, within 10 minutes, how will this stop the pump from failing to prime? What if you have trouble removing the old filter? You can’t add new oil until the filter is replaced and the sump plug has been replaced.

3/ If the risk of an un-primed and therefore non-fuctional oil pump was real, surely this would be noted in the vehicle service manual, or added as an addendum to the service manual by the manufacturer. What about the cars and boats that use this engine, don’t they change their oil?

My procedure to change oil includes:

Make sure I have oil, filter, filter holder, big catch pan, rags and tools necessary
Go for a drive to warm the engine
Drive front wheels up onto some blocks of wood
Remove the sump plug and start oil draining into the catch pan
Crack a stubby
Remove oil filter
Oil up spare filter holder and fit new filter and o ring
Wipe old oil out of filter recess in engine
Fit spare filter holder and new filter into the engine
Crack another stubby
Check tightness of filter housing
Replace sump plug and tighten
Remove catch pan – carefully
Pour new oil into engine, approx 9 litres
Allow oil to settle then check level
Run engine and check for leaks
Pour used oil into empty containers for disposal
Cleanup catch pan and filter housing using kero
Pack everything away until next time
Crack another stubby!

This takes at least one hour.
Sometimes the filter is difficult to remove. (Old spin on types especially, not the type I have now)
The drain time would typically be 20 to 30 minutes, depending on who stops for a chat and how many stubbies I have.
Even after the sump plug is replaced, the sump is empty until the new filter is fitted and oil is added. Another 15 to 20 minutes.

If I had a Volvo engine as used in the Ranger, the oil pump would have to make its own arrangements.

Rgds,
Allan





AnswerID: 539996

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 17:36

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 17:36
Excuse me if I am barking up the wrong tree but don't the Rangers have the same engine as the Mazda BT50. In fact I was given to understand that most of the mechanicals were Mazda but Ford used their own body panels.
Or were the earlier Rangers fitted with a Volvo sourced engine?

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 18:00

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 18:00
Think your getting a bit confused..... Volvo developed the D5 and Ford developed the I5 Duratorq.

Two different engines.
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 20:49

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 20:49
OK, so which engine was fitted to which and what does the current Mazda BT50 use.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 21:14

Monday, Oct 06, 2014 at 21:14
Volvo D5 is fitted to many Volvo cars and can be used for marine applications.

The D5 is 2.4lts 5 cylinder and the I5 is a 3.2lt 5 cylinder.

The Mazda BT 50 share the same I5 Duratorq that was developed by Ford under the Puma code.

They [D5 and I5] may share similarities to each other but are unrelated to each other.
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Reply By: Phil B (WA) - Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 00:40

Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 00:40
Hi Axle
It may be old news to some but not everyone is in the trade or heard about it back then - to me I'm glad you bought it up it was news to me.

If I was buying one of the said vehicles I would be delighted to have had it brought up even for a second time.

Keep up the good work.
There is a lot of difference between
‘Human Being’ and ‘Being Human’.





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AnswerID: 540014

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 07:40

Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 07:40
Agree 100% with Phil.

I left the spanner twirling trade a few years back so done plenty of oil changes to customers, family and friends and my own vehicles.
Pretty standard stuff to drop the oil and filter while hot. Let drain while having a cuppa or can depending on the time of day, a yak to the neighbor over the fence, go back 1/2 hr later put on new filter and re-fit sump plug, new oil and fire it up.
I would not have thought of racing around and making sure no more than 10 minutes had elapsed and I guess I wouldn't even be that interested if not for the fact that I am considering one of these vehicles as a possible replacement for my aging beast in the next year or so.
So yeah, thanks Axle.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 00:51

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 00:51
Pop, I can recall a farmer client buying himself a new Beemer in the early 1990's, because he had had a good year - and he had always lusted after a Beemer!

So, after he's owned the Beemer for a few months and done nearly 5000 kays, he decides to take a trip from the wheatbelt to Esperance for a break.

While he's there, the odometer ticks over exactly 5000 kays - and being the dedicated maintenance man he is - and a tightwad to boot! - he decides he's going to drop the engine oil and refill it himself.
None of this $1000 Beemer oil change service costs for this bloke, no sirree!!

So, he drops the oil out and refills it to the precisely correct level - then jumps back in it and goes to start it!
Uh-Oh! It won't go!! No matter what he tried or thought up, it just refused to start!
He calls up the Beemer service hotline and wails about the problem. The Beemer service people ask, "what have you done precisely?"
"I just changed the oil! - that's all", says the farmer.

"Oh", says the Beemer serviceperson. "There's your problem. You need the Beemer code-reader to reset the computer after you've dropped the oil. There's an oil level sensor in the crankcase that shuts down the engine when the oil drops below a certain level - engine protection, you see - and that shutdown can only be reversed by the inserting of our special code by our special Beemer tools!"

So - farmer had to PAY for a Beemer technician to travel from Perth to Esperance to reset his engine computer! - all because he wanted to save a few dollars by doing his own oil-changes!!

There's a moral to the story here, but I'm afraid it's a little bit too hard for for me to see it!
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 07:58

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 07:58
LOL...I wonder if that farmer still had the look of love in his eye whenever he approached that Beamer after that little drama????
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 09:29

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 09:29
Pop, I think the love affair with exceedingly expensive, exceedingly complex, and exceedingly high-maintenance European luxury cars ended, right about that point, for that bloke! LOL

I know another farmer client who owns a top-of-the-wozza 7 series Beemer as well. He lives in Mandurah and he has major $$$'s seeping out of every orifice.
He loves that Beemer - but he constantly wails about how the Beemer dealer tears him a new cloaca, every time he takes it in for a service! LOL
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FollowupID: 825796

Reply By: Dion - Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 14:43

Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 14:43
Not a Ford or Mazda, but at times I have left my sump to drain overnight in the RA Rodeo.
AnswerID: 540028

Reply By: Slow one - Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 19:59

Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 19:59
One of the problems with this post is the statement. Evidentley the 3.2l 5cyl ford engine does have oil pump issues! The reason I say this, is it is not something either a Mazda or a Ford rep would say in the presence of others, if at all. Ford or Mazda have not made public a service bulletin on this reported problem, so I have to doubt that someone standing beside someone has that information. I have no reason to disbelieve this oil problem can occur but what I will add is, I have yet to have a see a post from someone that this has happened to. The service warning (not ford or mazda) states there may be a problem. Note the MAY.

I am not defending the statement as I have posted the service bulletin. But like many things including the recent Eluo store post, you have to be sure of how accurate a post is in the eyes of the beholder.

I don’t know, so my oil changes are kept under 10 mins,the biggest problem is the internet with no proof of anything.

If any wish to post that they have had this problem, please do so along with some proof. Then we can all move along on an even keel, one way or another.


AnswerID: 540050

Reply By: Member - Nutta - Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 20:10

Tuesday, Oct 07, 2014 at 20:10
So what is the difference between this oil pump and others?

Not having a one way valve or something?

I really have no idea.
AnswerID: 540054

Reply By: Ron N - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 01:30

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 01:30
A sizeable number of Ranger owners that have Rangers powered by the 3.2L engine have reported annoying humming and vibration noises from the oil pan.

Ford have produced a TSB that details a known problem, that they call, a "hot idle moan".

The problem is that oil pump and oil pickup pipe pulsations have been producing oil pan vibration.

The TSB details a modification that involves a new oil pan and a new oil pump pickup tube.

"Subject: P375 Ranger 3.2L Hot Idle Moan (Supersedes TSB 13-01-AP to include oil pick up tube)
Models Affected: 2012 Ranger with 3.2L PUMA engine
Markets Affected: E and G Markets
OASIS Symptom Codes: 448***, 4481**
Description: Some 2012 Rangers built between 8/29/2011 to 9/6/2012 and with a 3.2L puma engine may exhibit a hot idle moan noise coming from the engine oil pan area.
Root Cause(s):
Oil pump pulsations may be transmitted from the oil pump through the oil pick up tube onto the oil pan causing a moan noise.
Dealer Action:
A new oil pan and new oil pump inlet tube should be installed. The new oil pan design has a different stiffness and the oil pump pick-up tube has been revised to prevent vibrations from radiating the noise.
Service Procedure:
This procedure addresses noise in hot idle condition.
1. Is noise present during hot idle conditions or within 1 to 2 minutes after idling?
a. Yes – proceed to step 2.
b. No – This procedure does not apply. Proceed with normal diagnostics.
2. Remove and replace sump and oil pick-up tube with a new level part. Refer to 2012 Ranger Workshop Manual (WSM), SECTION 303-01C Engine - 3.2L Duratorq-TDCi (148kW/200PS) – Puma - Removal and Installation – Oil Pan
3. To install, reverse the removal procedure
4. Fill the oil pan with clean engine oil. Refer to: Specifications (303-01C Engine - 3.2L
Duratorq-TDCi (148kW/200PS) - Puma, Specifications)."


I'm wondering if the oil pump priming problem is related to insufficient oil pump pickup tube diameter?

I can recall, going back many many years (like, the late 1960's) - Caterpillar had an oil pump pickup tube problem with their little V8 diesel - the 1100 series as it was known initially (later, it was redesigned and called the 3208).

I had a mate with an International R190 prime mover that he had fitted a new Cat 1150 engine into. It wasn't too bad an engine - but it had a curious fault.

Bob was based in Kalgoorlie with his R190 - and every couple of weeks, he'd come out early in the morning and fire up the little Cat 1150 - and it would have no oil pressure. Zero, zilch - even after a worrying 45 or 60 seconds.
He'd shut the engine down and then restart it after a minute or two - and voila, the oil pressure would come right up, and be at a fine, normal level of pressure.

He'd had discussions with Wigmores Tractors, and they'd asked Caterpillar in the U.S. - and Caterpillar couldn't help.
Bob ran the little Cat for several years without any major problems - except that nagging lack of oil pressure on startup, that would happen regularly. It seemed to be worse on cold mornings.

Roll forward a few years, and Caterpillar release a major redesign of the 1100 series and make it strong enough to produce turbocharged versions and industrial versions.

In the "product release notes", I read - "Caterpillar have substantially redesigned many components of the 1100 series in the new 3208 line. Some of the major changes involve a larger capacity oil pump, and a LARGER DIAMETER OIL PUMP PICKUP TUBE (my capitals) - because it has been found that a substantial number of 1100 series engines have been suffering from OIL PUMP CAVITATION ON COLD MORNINGS, DUE TO INADEQUATE OIL PUMP PICKUP TUBE DIAMETER" (my capitals again).

I'm wondering here, if the I5 PUMA engine is suffering from similar problems to the early 1100 series Cat V8's? - and the oil pump pickup tube is of inadequate diameter, and the oil pump is cavitating after an oil change with an extended drain period?

I'm also wondering if the newly-redesigned oil pump pickup tube, might solve the oil change drain time problem?
If not, there just might be an opening here to start manufacturing some larger diameter, aftermarket oil pump pickup tubes!?
AnswerID: 540066

Follow Up By: Slow one - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 06:01

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 06:01
Ron,
yes there have been owners who have reported this moan problem and Ford are fixing them.

I don't know if this could be associated with the purported oil pickup problem as it is not a general recall. Mine has never had the moan, that or engines have sent me deaf. No that's not it I can still hear that loose grouser every time the track goes round. LOL.
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:10

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:10
AHHH the old 3208 "bird scarer" or was that the crankshaft busting Cummins of similar design and era?? Might have been the early 555.
And please, PLEASE don't remind me about R190 Inters, I still get the shakes thinking about having my back bent at a most unnatural angle while trying to get some sense out of 6V-53 Jimmies that some thoughtless bar steward decided to stuff under the bonnet.

So maybe the problem come about by changing the oil in winter.
Remember the old hot bulb crude oil engines of yesteryear?
How about if after the oil change the next step should be to warm the sump with a blow torch???

(;=))

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:16

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:16
On second thoughts, maybe a blow torch applied to the nether regions of whichever demented soul decided he could get another .00005 Kilometers to the liter by incorporating some convoluted, variable all singing, all dancing oil pump.

GRRRR
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:27

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:27
The noise from the sump has nothing to do with the oil drain procedure.

If the customer complains about the noise Ford and Mazda will replace the sump with a new anti reverberating sump.

The noise is just simply a noise and no damage can be caused.

Good thing about the Cummins 555 was if anything was wrong you could not hear it.

And the 2 stroke GM..... sounds good running backwards.

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FollowupID: 825788

Follow Up By: Slow one - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:35

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:35
Pop,
they certainly sold lots of 3208's in trucks and the 555 Cummins was average if it wasn't over revved. The 53 series bought deafness to many a bedstead owner.

The 908 was a good engine along with the 3306 cats and 71/92 series jimmy's. The world oil price rise killed the jimmy's although you can still buy new ones.
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FollowupID: 825789

Follow Up By: Slow one - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:43

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 08:43
olcoolone,
can't remember the sound of a jimmy running backwards but I can remember the choking smoke and the frantic effort of trying to stop the engine with the emergency blower flap to stop it exhausting. Had it happen a couple of times.

Mate broke a fuel line in front of a jimmy blower that had no emergency flap so he threw his shirt at the intake and the blower ate it. He removed himself post haste and listened as it revved it's self into oblivion.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 09:19

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 09:19
The part that amazes me here is that Ford have been building engines for over 100 years.

They've produced a long line of race car engines, they've produced bullet-proof engines, they've built everything from 3 cylinders to 12 cylinders in everything from petrol to diesel, and in nearly every configuration known - and they've powered everything from tanks to bulldozers, to cars and trucks.

Now, one would think that Ford could produce a new and improved design of engine by now without any "bugs" in it. They have 100 years of design faults to refer to, to avoid any repeats of bad design - yet somehow they still manage to make bungles in new engine designs that create grief for owners and cost the company money to fix.

Oil pump and pickup tube design for new design engines should be down pat.
They should have all the calculations on record, all the faults to be avoided listed, all the computer programs loaded with every possibility that has to be avoided in the design.

Yet somehow, they still manage to produce engine design faults that could have been avoided by simple reference to engineering calculations, major reference books, internal knowledge banks, and known previous design faults.

It really does make one wonder what goes on in some engine design depts, besides throwing paper planes around when they are supposed to be finding the design errors.

Then again, I suppose it could be that, as always - in the never-ending fight between engineering designers and bean counters - the bean counters had another win, and they overrode sensibly engineered design, so they could save 50c on every engine, by requiring an oil pump and oil pump pickup tube, to cost 50c less.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 14:52

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 14:52
It's funny how most of use can't get things always right but we expect others to get it right the first time...... even if it involves 10,000 parts.

Ron most times they do get things right and it is only a handful that causes issues or warranty claims.

Even that many do a lot of testing be for releasing a product there is no better testing then real life in the field testing especially when you have 10 of thousands testers testing in all conditions.
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Reply By: Member - Andrew - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 14:12

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 14:12
Ok so the phone rang half way through the oil change, half an hour later the oil pump has un-primed itself.
How do you fix it?

Or you have just replaced a damaged sump and are going to start the engine for the first time. How do you make sure it is primed?

regards
A
AnswerID: 540086

Follow Up By: Alsub - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 16:57

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 16:57
Andrew, this appears to be a FAQ thread - Frequently Asked Questions.
No answers, just questions!

No one has answered the questions I put in reply # 6.

I believe the notice is a fraud.
There is no hard evidence to substantiate it.
Neither Ford or Mazda have posted anything about it, yet one of them make some announcement about a vibrating sump. On a scale of importance this should not even feature compared to the alleged oil pump problem.

Sorry, I got no answers either.

Rgds,
Allan

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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 17:14

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 17:14
Andrew - Why, you should know - you just zip down to your local friendly Ford dealer and purchase;

"Part Number: 6TCAZ-14132311, Model: Ranger, Engine: 3.2L

Product: Oil pump hand priming pump, plus attachments, to enable fitting to the engine oil gallery, to re-prime oil pump after each oil change or sump replacement.

RRP: $467.89

You know what they say, about making sure you have all the genuine Ford accessories, don't you? [;-)

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 825830

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 18:40

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 18:40
Allan there is a very good reason why they have not made it public, the trade has known about it for a while and the DIY market is something they have no interest in providing information to.

It has been that way for many years and there are a number of vehicles unless known certain things can cause damage if done wrong.

For example look at the old 3.2lt Jackaroo with it's oil issue..... use the wrong oil and it would not start.

There are many things not done right but most of the time you can get away with it if lucky.

You will not find many dealerships or the trade will not leave a drain plug out for that long in a passenger vehicle...... time is money and once the oil is drained your not going to get anymore oil out of it.

Most vehicles you can drain the oil within 2-3 minutes, another 2-5 minutes to change the filter and refill.

I would say the incident may of happened but is very rare and is not considered a problem as such.

The sump vibration issue is known and they have a fix for that.

Biggest thing with the internet is their is a lot of good information and equally or if not more bad information.

The funny thing is no one has come out with a real 100% fact reason why it happened and when this happens it is a good indication it's a rare occurrence...... there are a few theories but no facts.

I would say the original releases went out as a warning from a repair database, went viral and every one picked up on it and blew it out the water.

As I said things can get twisted and fact and fiction mixed up....... here is a classic example from the Ford Facebook page where Cliff Moore started attacking Ford on a bent chassis on the new Ranger.....

Cliff Moore said "I hear the new Ford Ranger has a problem with bending the chassis. What's the story on this???"

Ford responded "Hi Cliff, we're not sure where you've heard this from but we haven't had any such issues throughout the entire extensive development and testing process."

He went on the attack Ford only to come out later when Ford investigated it they found out it was the old model....... he then changed tune and attacked them for not warranting it.

Have a read....

https://www.facebook.com/FordAustralia/posts/10150522013558747

Got to love trolls.




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FollowupID: 825837

Follow Up By: Member - Nutta - Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 20:37

Wednesday, Oct 08, 2014 at 20:37
Olcoolone, do you own a Ranger?

I've never seen someone go as far as you to defend a car, almost like toyota/nissan owners.
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FollowupID: 825851

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 10:00

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 10:00
Yes have a Ranger but also working in the industry and I also know what is fact and fiction.

Topics like this get brought up often in general meeting and training sessions we have with others in the industry.

Issues with products no matter what it is always seems to get blown out of proportion on the internet compared with the number of products out there that do have an issue.

I would say all who have posted negatively or commented about this issue do not own a Ranger, have no interest in owning a Ranger, know no one with a new Ranger nor do they really care.

It's just another story they can twist around, get it wrong and tell their mates.

It seems when someone trolls they get heaps of support from others and when someone talks logic and fact they get knocked down as being biased towards the products brand.

People love knocking others down and form a pack to do it...... very much a tall poppy syndrome.

It never seems to amaze me owners of the said product with the issue actually have less issues then the ones who don't own them.

With the number of newish vehicles out there with so many so called problems I am really surprised forums are not flooded with people complaining.

Many seem to forget yesteryear and pre-internet days where things still failed....... look at the 1HDT engine in the 80 series with it wide spread bearing problem where all were done under a warranty recall....... today they are classed as one of the 4x4's to have a fetch big money....... would of it been the same if the internet was around..... maybe not.

This is why I defend somethings so much...... just like the many who attack something so much.

So It is OK to criticise and talk rubbish but it's not OK to defend and talk fact...... funny world.



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FollowupID: 825870

Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 11:42

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 11:42
I have had huge problems with my PX Ranger over the last 2 years.

The first was the little protection cover over the auto transmission cooler. That cost Ford big time as they had to install 2 new pop rivets in under the allotted time of 10 mins.

The second was an aftermarket (non Ford) unit that the dealer fitted, again they had to replace it, I could blame Ford for this as it was installed on one of their products. Ha bloody Ha.

Having a Ranger you tend to have a chat with fellow Ranger and Bt 50 owners, all those I have spoken to seem to have no problems with what they have purchased and the only negatives you get are about dealers. As you talk to them, they will say do you know about this or that and give helpful information, warnings are transferred between one another. Maybe I should be listening to non owners to get a true picture of the vehicle.

Guess I will have to wait for the wheels to fall off in the future, as that is what many non owners predict through there worldly insight.
I thank them for their concerns and that they are able to glean immaculate information from a mate of a mates mate.

Or I could do what I have just done and ring a mate that is in charge of a work shop that has many Rangers, 70 series, Hiluxes, Navaras, 200 series, Patrols and Territories and asked how the Rangers are performing now they are 2 years old. Here is the answer.

The main problems are springs, broken cv's and front diff seals plus a few crank angle sensors. Now just to put this in perspective, these vehicles are over 1/2 of their way through their working lives. They operate all day and night locked in 4wd in dirt, mud, water and dust and they are turning all the time on both loose dirt, rock and bitumen. The crank angle sensors will be failing due to the amount of mud and water. Note not one broken chassis and they load the rear of the dual cabs to the max and then some. 70 series in the same conditions broke cv's and springs regularly as well. The other brands of vehicles they look after only do light work.






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FollowupID: 825875

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew & Jen - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 12:54

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 12:54
Hullo olcoolone and Slow one
As you know from another thread, I am looking at the Ranger/BT-50 as an option in the relatively near future.
I appreciate the effort that you have made to present some background, facts and reasoned discussion around this issue.
Nothing I have heard yet would lead me to discount these vehicles as the main contenders.
For me the oil refill issue is just that, an issue that needs to be managed by following set procedures. For me it is not a problem, ie, something like a faulty clutch that prematurely fails or a air-conditioner that fails after a few months.
For fleet managers, they continue to be the vehicle of choice for tough environments. That speaks volumes in my book.
Thanks
Andrew
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FollowupID: 825881

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 14:11

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 14:11
Slow one... yes we have had a crank angle sensor fail that took Ford about 3 months to resolve, it would only happen for a few second evey now and again.

In the end it was a diagnostic guy from Fords head office that found it by driving the car for a week and a half connected to a laptop.

Were we annoyed and bleep about it...... no as it was just one of the many things in life that take time to sort out, I am sure if it happened now it would be diagnosed and fixed quickly.

What made it hard was being a new release vehicle there was no prior history of this fault logged by Ford dealers.

And we have had the blend door motor replaced and the new one has started clicking again, the other issue was a small water leak from a seal...... other then that with 45,000k on the clock it's been good and we are happy with it.

Have a friend who does about 60,000k a year and he had trouble with a bearing in the manual gearbox go noisy at about 85,000k.

Speak to fleet people and you get a different story of whats good and bad and yes the Ranger is in their good books.

Sooner people relise all vehicles have problems and these problems can effect many but mostly only a few vehicles.

We see stuff come into our workshop, some have common faults and most have uncommon faults.

Only if the non trade people knew of the other problems other makes and models have they might take a different approach.

Most people only know about their own issues they have had or the ones of close friends and chances are like most they have no interest looking at other makes and model to find out their short comings or faults....... unless they are in the market for that particular make and model.

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FollowupID: 825886

Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 14:46

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 14:46
Andrew, Ford have always pursued fleet sales, and they have sales people dedicated to this specialised market. Without fail, fleet sales generally have little to do with "vehicle reputation", "reliability record" or "robustness".

Fleet sales successes are virtually, without fail, dependent on lowest tendered price, or other sales "enticements", that will swing the deal.

Fleet managers see virtually no variation in different brands, they believe all the manufacturers produce a satisfactory product.

The only other factors that influences fleet managers sales decisions are users stated preferences (if a hirer), known resale value, and the number of standard features that are often "optional extra" in other brands.
In many cases, fleet salespeople will throw in options that appeal to fleet buyers, that are normally extra cost, to swing the deal their way.

In some cases, "guaranteed buyback price" offers are also included. These are not common, unless the seller knows that the vehicles are being used in conditions that generate excellent used condition of vehicles, such as regular business use around the cities.

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 825889

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew & Jen - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 16:17

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 16:17
Thanks Ron N
Just to clarify, are you saying that fleet managers don't take into account total cost over the life of the asset - not only the purchase price but, for example, the impact poor performance and unreliability would have on the bottom line?
Andrew
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FollowupID: 825892

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 18:40

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 18:40
Ron believe me fleet people take stuff very seriously and look at the purchase cost, cost of running the vehicle and resale value plus acceptance by those who are driving them.

If this was the case we would be seeing a big influx of Great Walls, Mitsubishi Triton and Nissan Navaras in fleets.........

Many aspects come in to play and sometimes it even comes down to supply and who has stock available.

We have a very strong relationship with the State Government and a few private fleet managers and it's very interesting what they have to say.

We even get asked to look at vehicles for them and comment on stuff that will affect the work we provide to them..... and our involvement is only a very very small part of the whole scheme of things.

As for a SUV and off road type vehicles many prefer the Toyota Hilux, Prado and Landcruiser due to the reliability resale value and driver acceptance plus dealer support and spare parts.

Safety is another important part fleet people look at.

The Ford Ranger is making big head way into once Toyota dominant fleets with many refusing to by Holden Colorado after having issues and Mitsubishi and Nissan are not even in the race.

All vehicle manufactures have fleet sales guys and girls on the ground chasing the fleet dollar so I don't know where you got the information that Ford are the only ones doing it.

Even BMW, Mercedes and Jeep have got in to it now as Falcon, Camry and Commodore manufacturing is coming to an end.



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FollowupID: 825899

Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 18:41

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 18:41
Andrew, fleet managers can't do that with new model vehicle purchases, because they can only go on historical records, to get those "whole of life" costs.

These people are driven by bean counters who have no real interest in particular models of vehicles or brands - they are driven by dollar numbers - and a big part of those dollar numbers is the initial purchase cost, what is offered as cost-reducing measures in the dealers quotation, and what they can get for the vehicles when they're sold after X number of years.

However workshop managers and site supervisors generally have substantial input into the selection of makes and models - so the fleet salesman is always looking for the person or persons who have the greatest input into choice of make and model, when fleet purchases are being made.
If Bean counters had all their own way, all fleet purchases would probably be Fotons or Great Wails.

Bean counters pull some interesting moves as regards vehicle and equipment costing calculations. One of the big mining contractors calculates an hourly or km cost-of-ownership rate upon purchase, and pays that amount into a dedicated account for that particular vehicle or item of equipment, from day one.

These people work on around 2 yr ownership periods and fast turnover of vehicles and equipment, because they rack up the kms and hours fast.
They pay for any repair and maintenance costs for that particular item from that particular vehicle/equipment R&M fund - and at certain regular kms or hours, they examine the total cost to date, the sale value of the item, and calculate their ownership costs to that point (which also includes any amount left in the R&M fund).

If the figures stack up well - if they've owned it for a reasonable period, and it's done modest or high kms/hrs - and the vehicle/equipment item owes them nothing - then they quit it.

If it's been costly to run and the figures don't stack up for the figure they reckon is the good average hourly/km cost - then they either keep the item for longer to try and extract more value from it - or they quit it early, treating it as an unreliable liability, to be got rid of.

Shire councils operate differently, they rarely have repair costs, because their vehicles and equipment are only lightly worked, and they turn the vehicles and equipment in on a very regular basis - usually 2 to 4 years.
Councils rarely run their vehicles outside the warranty period.

They tend to select brands/makes that they favour, from previous experience and use, and some councils continue to buy the same brands year after year.
This says more for the cosy relationship between the fleet salesperson and the shire CEO and councillors, than it ever does for the particular brand reliability, or low running cost.

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 825900

Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 18:57

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 18:57
Olcoolone, nowhere did I expressly state that "Ford are the only ones doing it" (fleet sales). That's your poor interpretation of what I actually wrote. I wrote "Ford have always pursued fleet sales".
By that, I meant that Ford recognise the advantage of chasing fleet sales, as a number of manufacturers don't - Isuzu is one, for example - and the Chinese vehicle manufacturers don't, either.

I will agree that sometimes, whoever has the stock immediately available will win a tender. However, that's often dependent on how urgently the vehicles are required.
All manufacturers shunt stock around to meet demand, and I've seen dealers have their stock decimated, because some other dealer won a tender, and the dealer with stock on hand had to give some of it up, to meet the tender-winning dealers requirements.
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FollowupID: 825901

Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 19:05

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 19:05
I'm not sure where you get the info from, that people are refusing to buy Holden because of "Colorado issues" - over here in the West, I have noticed that Colorados are selling like hot cakes at a church fete.

New Colorados are outnumbering new D-Max's on the road this year by a very wide margin - largely to construction people, builders, and private buyers, it seems.

I haven't heard of any "major issues" with the Colorados that rate high enough for buyers to reject them, and the sales here seem to verify that.
Perhaps Holden is offering exceptionally good pricing in the final washup, that is way below the D-Max, and that is why they are selling.
I personally don't like the Colorado offering - but it seems a lot of locals do.
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FollowupID: 825902

Follow Up By: adriang - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 20:46

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 20:46
Whatever happened to the oil pump issue or non issue.
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FollowupID: 825908

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 21:11

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 21:11
Olcoolone said: "As I said things can get twisted and fact and fiction mixed up....... here is a classic example from the Ford Facebook page where Cliff Moore started attacking Ford on a bent chassis on the new Ranger....."

Hi Richard, you're a bit harsh on Cliffie. He posted the question on Nov 3rd 2011 - just as the first PX's were hitting the streets. It was pretty obvious he was talking about the PK. The Ford man was ducking and weaving. There was a good reason they upsized the chassis considerably!
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FollowupID: 825909

Follow Up By: Slow one - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 21:15

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 21:15
adriang,
Colorado's are winning by a mile, The DEAR ford fleet, sorry DEER fleet have run out of oil and the Colorado Cheap fleet are on a high,. Colorado high John Denver model is winning again and again. Toyota fleet sales are loving it and Hyundai fleet sales have removed the north's president under the radar, while this is going on. D-max owners are perplexed by it all, as they were mentioned as poor cousins while jeep are showing how tough their vehicles are to wreck.

Tomorrow after reading all this sales stuff I am glad to say I won't be driving an American Iron T904 as all american vehicles are hopeless (except for yellow engined stuff) Many will know what I mean.

All be afraid as I will be stepping into a Iveco Euro truck tomorrow with that modern horrible automated manual gearbox. With the 904 I could't see who I was going to run over, bloody yanks but with the Iveco I can just line them up if they are not fleet enough.

Now they can start on the fact that the ranger oil pump is chain drive. That should get things restarted.


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FollowupID: 825910

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 21:46

Thursday, Oct 09, 2014 at 21:46
Phil...... Good to see you picked up on my point that the internet is not all fact and mostly fiction.

If some one not in the know read Cliffs post where he got it wrong by mentioning the "new" ranger instead of saying the last model he was refering to that had a known issue if used in heavy use enviroments would crack chassies........ No instead he made mention of the " new" Ranger.

And then you had a few more jump on saying the same with out getting the facts right.

The other thing was he attacked Ford for not standing by thier warranty seeing he did not have all the facts of why Ford declinded the warranty......... Was it because the vehicle was set up wrong, carrying to much weight or hit a big bump and become airborn when loaded........ Did it fail from abuse.

I can understand someone like the owner of this vehicle getting bleep about it and attacking the Ford Facebook page...... But for someone and the others who have no personell involvement in the claim jumping on the band wagon is in my book just plain wrong and rude.

I am 110% sure Ford like any othe reputable manufacture would be very concerned with a legit claim for a cracked chassie if t was under normal operation conditions.

It would be like me and you getting on the band wagon attacking Nissan directly and on forums for their 3lt motors blowing up when we don't realy care about it and we have reason to become vocal about it.

With socal media and open forums this has become a pasttime for many who have nothing else better to do then cause grief.
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FollowupID: 825913

Follow Up By: Ron N - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 00:52

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 00:52
Slow one - Chain drive?? Really?? Good God, the bean counters really worked that engine over, didn't they? Here's hoping they didn't downsize the chain to save another $3.50 per engine!!


Adraing - The oil pump "loss of prime" problem is erratic in the Rangers, and it's not just confined to the Ranger 3.2L diesel or Fords.
There have been a few Mopar products in the past, that suffered loss of oil pump prime, when left to drain for too long.

There are many hundreds of thousands of the 3.2L Ford engine in use, in numerous Ford models, across numerous countries.
The oil pump "loss of prime" problem does not appear to have been reported in any of these models.

However, it's possible the Ranger sump uses a different and perhaps deeper design than other Ford 3.2L applications, so the oil pump loss of prime problem, has only appeared in the Ranger - and only then, intermittently.

Once the oil pump prime is lost, the only way to re-prime it, is to remove an oil gallery plug or oil pressure sender unit, and connect an oil pump (electric or hand-operated) to a container of oil, and pressurise the oil system.

Anyone who is on the ball and who watches the oil pressure warning light, right after start-up after an oil change, and sees the warning light staying on, will shut the engine down immediately.
An engine can run for 6-8 seconds after startup without oil pressure, without serious damage. Any longer without oil pressure and bearing damage is likely.

There's an interesting point raised right about here.
If the dealer/garage runs a 3.2L engine without oil pressure after an oil change - then stops it after, say 30 seconds, with damage just starting - and says nothing about it - then what comeback do you have, when the engine fails a couple of thousand kms down the track?
It could be near-impossible to prove that the dealer initiated the engine damage through failure to pick up the lack of oil pressure, early enough.
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FollowupID: 825919

Follow Up By: Member - Nutta - Monday, Oct 13, 2014 at 20:48

Monday, Oct 13, 2014 at 20:48
Me, I think its ridiculous, it should be stated on the back of the sun visor or something.

Not everyone reads the manual to change oil, not everyone gets on the net to read the latest gossip on their new car, I've left cars to drain for unto an hour at times, so tuff bikkies for me?

No bleep stirring, just pretty poor imo.
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FollowupID: 826116

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