Battery Set Ups

I looking for suggestions for types of batteries used for free camping.

I'm not sure which would suit better, for example, 2 x 100amh or 1 x 200amh or does it really matter?

I'd only be running LED's and small flat screen tv.
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Reply By: John and Regina M - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:14

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:14
Have you already searched and read existing information on setups, types, loads, conditions etc?

Are you confused after studying available information and am seeking additional information or clarity?
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:18

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:18
100%

My question should of been clearer.

Is there any better benefit to have 2 x 100amh or 1 x200amh battery.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:28

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:28
The benefit of having 2 batteries @ 35 kg each Vs a 70 kg battery should be obvious when it comes to lugging them around.
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:30

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:30
Once the 200amp battery is in place there should be no problem.

Cant see it as a dis-advantage in that purpose.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 09:57

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 09:57
Cost will be a big disadvantage.

The cost / value line in lead acid batteries comes down in the 300mm battery case that means in 12 volt batteries the N70 size battery.

there is a case for running either one large 12 volt battery or two smaller 6 volt batteries along the line of charge & load distribution.

Charge and load equalises better in a series combination than in a paralell combination

Running two 12 volt batteries in paralell should not be a problem if they are the same brand, type and age (preferably same batch).
You should also be particular how they are wired so series resistance does not favour one battery.....that means load/charge wire comes into the positive terminal on one battery and the negative terminal on the other...and the the paralelling straps are applied across the terminals of the two batteries.

AND of course you should from time to time seperate the batteries and give them a load and charge cycle or two on their own.

cheers
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Reply By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:14

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:14
It all depends on your charging arrangement. If it is only for some LED's and a small TV (no fridge?) then 1x 100ah battery may suffice.

Reading John's blog on Electricity for Camping will give you further insight.

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Reply By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:25

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:25
Depends on your needs, if you want some redundancy in the event of a battery failure then two batteries separated by an isolator or circuit separation my be the way to go, if your not worried about this then two batteries in parallel or one again gets down to preference, some might argue that two batteries is twice the cell count therefore ups the potential for a cell failure or one bad battery killing the other. On the other hand a 200Ah battery is going to be darn heavy and hard to manage therefore some might argue two 6V batteries would be better.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:27

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:27
Oh for an editor, should have written two 6V batteries in a series configuration.

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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:28

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:28
How is a 200amh battery harder to manage?
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:30

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:30
As above it is going to be heavy!

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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:32

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:32
So that is the only disadvantage.

By the sounds of it having a 200amh has slightly more benefit than 2 x 100amh's.

Both set ups weigh the same.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:37

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:37
Again if only I could edit!

By using two 6V batteries for instance you would have a much more manageable weight for each battery, the cell count is the same as for one 12V battery therefore potential failure rate will be less.

But then you have to way these points up against cost, 12V battery will most likely be cheaper and what you require out of the setup.

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:42

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:42
Crusier,

You seem to have your heart set on a 200ah battery so go ahead. But at 65kg it would need to be in an accessible location. I have enough trouble lifting a 110ah into the engine bay!
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:44

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 10:44
Redundancy for me would be the key issue, if your going to be doing a lot of remote traveling and will be heavily reliant on the system for food preservation etc I personnel would go for two separate 12V batteries, if one fails then you can isolate the faulty battery and make do with the good one until you can obtain a replacement, not the best system by any means but better than having no storage capability.

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Follow Up By: Manfred b - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:29

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:29
I've had both systems, two 100AH and one 200AH both in camper trailers. The two battery system I had to replace twice. If one loses a cell the other continually feeds it leading to two dud batteries. After I swapped to one battery I never had any more problems. As you say, the weight is not a problem, you only move it once - provided you plan ahead. I currently have a single 100AH, I was going to replace it with a 150AH but I've found the smaller battery feeds my TV, video and LEDs easily (never had it below 12.3V), so I'll be sticking with that until it dies. Previously I also ran a 40L Engel. Incidentlally, I feed my 100AH with an 80 watt S/P as necessary and both S/P and battery are no names - don't get sucked into buying expensive brand names.
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:49

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 12:49
Cheers Manfred, we are on the same wave length. You get that it is obvious power supply is for a camper.

I run dual in the 80 series, starter and a 100amh for the 60L weaco and vehical LED's.

The 200amh is for the camper in remote area's for a period of time without moving and thinking if I don't have good solar days. Peace of mind.

The other thing that has popped into my mind is.........with the stock alternator in the cruiser, should the camper battery system be independent of charging from the cruiser? Not sure if the alternator can keep up with all the batteries.

Many thanks for all the replies so far.

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 13:09

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 13:09
Nothing is "obvious" Crusier. Your initial query was more like a trick question. No indication of other systems. No indication of charging facility. No indication of consumption time between charges. Your precious TV could have been in a caravan, camper, tent, or even on the back seat. We are left to guess and try to help with little clues.
Then you still go on to ask subsequent questions about alternators. If you had read the link to Electricity for Camping you would gain your answers without being spoon-fed! Go jump!
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 13:44

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 13:44
Now, now Allen B, there's no reason to get upset.

It was no trick question.

Quite simple really.

Is one better than the other, that was it.

The purpose to why it is needed was irrelevant.

Thanks for your last entertaining response anyway, for some, it seems to be the Aussie way these days.

On ya, Allan B ;)

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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 13:58

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 13:58
Allan B, I am very sorry if I didn't give enough information for you to respond with what you feel a better response.
Your advice and everyone else's no matter how little it may be, is greatly appreciated regardless.

Manfred just happen to understand where I was coming from with little information given.

Thanks again.

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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 14:23

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 14:23
Crusier,
A while back I swore that I was never, ever going to answer another battery question....... but I did it again!!
They always go pear-shaped.
My wife says "I don't know why you bother"
I think she is right!!!
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 15:40

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 15:40
Hahaha, that's a fair call Alan, it is the same as "what vehicle is best" and "which tyre is best" type posts
They come as simple one line questions but there is never a simple one line black and white answer as there are so many variables

Cruiser 91 based on the little info I know of your requirements I would probably favour the 2 x 100a/h setup with a battery switch in between like they use on boats over the one 200A/h.
That way you are drawing from one battery at a time and always have a fresh backup if someone leaves an appliance on occidentally or if a battery drops a cell you are still able to function.
From a charging point of view it would also be better for the batteries longevity to pump more amps into them individually than to be spreading it over the larger A/H's.
Just something else to consider when weighing up your options
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Follow Up By: Bigfish - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 18:34

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 18:34
GO JUMP.

What a nice piece of advice Alan. You,d be better not being a keyboard commando and keeping to yourself. There are enough people on here that give others the s==== with their insulting answers...
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 19:10

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 19:10
Where is The Bantam when he is really needed?
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 19:16

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 19:16
With all due respect, Bantam can stay out of it. I'm actually after people that have really done it.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 10:26

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 10:26
The problem with dual 6 volt batteries is if one dies when away not many places stock 6 volt batteries.

Plus your adding twice the chance for a battery to fail, more cabling, more connections and batteries that require each other to supply a 12v source.

Much better staying with the automotive/RV accepted 12v...... at least you can always find a substitute if needed.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 10:55

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 10:55
Ya just cant help some people.

The truth about batteries is pretty simple and straight forward...but seem lots of people would rather listen to the miss-information and superstision....and they would rather spend a lot of money on something they don't need than hear they should be paying attention to their batteries.

Day after day, I go into situations where people have done "it" every day for years.....and got it wrong......and wondered why they fail to get results.....I do it once and get it right......and people pay me because I get results.

BTW...yeh I have done it.....I've been working and playing with batteries of all shapes and sizes for a few decades now...I even sold batteries for a while there.

so here is the advice..ignore it if you will.

One big ass battery will work...of course it will....... it will be seriuolsy heavy and it will most likely cost you more than two smaller ones......because it is big and heavy it will be harder to deal with in every way.



Two smaller batteries connected in series will be a far more managable situation, and will have no disadvantage over one single bigg ass battery twice the size........this is what is done in the vast majority of cases......look at most of the big battery installations and they will be smaller batteries connected in series...look at golf buggies and communicatoins iinstallation as two examples.
If you want an application that absolutely hammers batteries......its golf buggies.

Its all about getting the batteries down under that magical 30 KG mark which is the maximum reasonable single man lift......perhaps a few kg more in some cases.....this is one of the reasons for increased cost of larger batteries.....at every stage larger batteries are harder to handle and transport.....less are used...therefor they cost more.



Two smaller 12volt batteries run in paralell can be done and reliably.......BUT....you must pay attention to the detail of how they are selected, installed and managed.

It is done because 12 volt batteries are the lowest cost commodity

In particular using identical batteries and paying attention to the series resistance in the wiring so that one battery is not favoured over the other.....
AND you must pay attention to the two batteries individually from time to time.

Get any of this detail wrong....one battery will fail prematurely and take the other one with it.

There are a lot of battery installations running paralell batteries..some do better than others..for the above reasons

Some US trucks run a bank of four 100ish AH 12 volt batteries in paralell in a rack.....positive lead comes in one end negative lead comes in the other purpose made paralelling cable connects all 4.

IF you fail to rotate the batteries in the rack the outer two will fail first.

BTW...all the above I have from first had experience..it has been my screwdriver or spanner on the battery terminals.

cheers




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Follow Up By: Tony H15 - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 16:11

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 16:11
Must be nice to be an expert in every field of expertise, or at least think you are!

Why do so many keep harping on about moving 'big ass' batteries around? It sounds as if many here keep their batteries in the boot of the car and haul them out everytime they stop somewhere - seems silly to me. I just moved my big ass battery once, hooked it up and I haven't looked at it since.

I have OA in both hips, back, neck and elbows, plus bung shoulders and a few other bung bits, but I never had any problems moving my 'big ass' battery around - 'once'.

And of course because it's just one battery, once it was in I didn''t have to juggle batteries around, charge them separately, search all over the countryside trying to find another of the same brand and size when one failed to match the one that's already in place and then wait for the other older one to fail - been there done that, then I woke up. Strokes for folks I guess.

BTW, I'm an auto electrician, a mechanic, a caravan manufacturer, a plumber, a gas fitter, a brain surgeon (weekends only), a carpenter and a builder, I also used to sell electronics, cars, caravans, gas, brains, bones, wood and houses - so I do the walk.

Cheers, Pekin.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 20:18

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 20:18
Im like you and have two proffesional qualifications......... Physcology and counselling....... I find it helps me deal with stress and anger whilst on the computer.
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Follow Up By: Manfred b - Sunday, Oct 12, 2014 at 08:50

Sunday, Oct 12, 2014 at 08:50
Night time I moonlight as a standup comedian, I use that qualification as my coping mechanism when dealing with the dills.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 14:42

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 14:42
Saw a good example of how dumb the traditional way is on our last trip.
It was the usual main batt for starter and voltage sensitive relay that switched charge to a second acessories battery as required.

What happened was main batt suffered a failure and couldn't quite turn over starter one morning , then because acessories had been running on other battery it was to low to be used to even jump start the car.

If it wasn't for others then this driver was stuffed.


I would ensure that whichever batt you get that you can fit it where your starter batt goes and always ensure that any battery has an easily readable voltmeter permanently across it placed such that it is easily read from drivers seat.






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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 15:28

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 15:28
Like thisRobin?

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Follow Up By: Idler Chris - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 22:05

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 22:05
Agree with a permanently wired voltmeter viewable by driver. I have a 100 series Toyota which comes std with 2 cranking batts but in our climate really only needs one. Many replace one of the cranking batts for a deep cycle which alters the standard Toyota electrics. I did not do this so when I travel I disconnect and isolate one of the batts and change them over on the 1st of each month. This way I always have a good batt no matter how pear shape things go.
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Reply By: Manfred b - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 16:07

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 16:07
Personal choice, but as you are running the Waeco off the accessory battery I would run the camper system on a different charging circuit from the vehicle. As someone else said you could run the LED caravan lights from your accessory battery in the car, but with the Waeco already pulling power, you can't camp indefinitely without starting up the vehicle, vehicles are expensive to use as battery chargers.

In a previous set up I ran an Engel off my accessory battery in the Hilux when travelling and switched the fridge to the S/P fed camper battery when camped via an extension lead. I would consider buying a 100/120/150 and also buy a S/P. Even a 200 AH battery will severely limit you time out bush without some sort of charging system.

I only have a 100AH AGM monitored via a digital voltmeter and fed by a 80 watt S/P, but I do have backup available in a Honda EXD-400, it's a pretty crude charger (not at all smart) but if I keep an eye on the digital voltmeter while in use it will get me out of trouble. Haven't used it since I bought my first S/P though and that was about 10 years ago.

You'll notice that as S/Ps go up in wattage, wattage per dollar goes up exponentially making the higher output panels better value. So unless space is a problem, it's probably wise to buy something bigger than you need. As someone else pointed out, overcast conditions will severely curtail the output - although in all honesty, I've never had that problem.
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 18:46

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 18:46
Many thanks for your insight Manfred.

So I'm thinking, a stand alone system for the camper. Jayco Outback Finch with a fixed 120 watt panel on top charging 200amp hour battery.

And

A portable 120 watt panel to charge the 100amp hour running the 60l waeco should be plenty.

Could connect the spare 120 watt to the stand alone for extra generation if needed.

With a 2hp Honda as back up.

Sounds right?
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 20:46

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 20:46
And a 2hp Honda??????
I am beginning to suspect Trolling here! LOL
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Reply By: Manfred b - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 19:56

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 19:56
I think you could just about light up NYC with that lot. Some sunscreen might be a wise investment for the LEDs you could light up.
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Reply By: Manfred b - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 20:28

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 20:28
I don't know what camper/caravan you have but you might want to give some thought to where you're going to put the battery. A 200AH is around 250mm x 250mm and around 560mm long, a fair lump of a battery, and with a weight of around 65kgs it may affect your towball weight adversely on a smallish camper/caravan. Just a thought!
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 04:23

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 04:23
Thinking the same.

With 2 x 9kg gas bottles already there and a 20l jerry.

I'm going try and find a spot inside the camper and try and figure out a breather system that wont allow dust in when travelling, hopefully.
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Reply By: dublediff - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 21:52

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 21:52
It is always a problem when you put a 300 litre tank in a position when you are only able to put 200 litres into it. Poor analogy, but it is better to to be over the top with power input than storage. Try an match your input with your storage. If you continually undercharge your battery, that is not fully charge it, the you will find you are replacing it prematurely. If you want a 200 ah battery they would expect that you have 200 ah of solar charging...rough rule of thumb but batteries aren't cheap
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Reply By: Mick O - Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 22:12

Friday, Oct 10, 2014 at 22:12
I've put a bit of thought into it over the years. HAve a read here;

DC ELECTRICS - Building a 12 Volt DC Power System for your 4x4 - My experiences

Cheers Mick
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trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 04:17

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 04:17
A wealth of info, many thanks Mick.

John and Vals blog was a great read as well.

I gathered I would be up for a couple $K or more to fit out the camper. It's certainly worth peace of mind that for sure.

Again, thank you.
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Reply By: olcoolone - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 10:18

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 10:18
Geeezzz...... Battery threads always seem to get heaps of responses........ 37 in just over 24 hours.

There must be more battery experts on this forum then any other type of expert......LOL

Something so simple but it causes the most discussion.
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Follow Up By: Bigfish - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 11:39

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 11:39
Olcoolone..lets not forget

Which 4wd to buy
Best tyres
What oil
What size solar panel

The list is endless.

Doesnt matter though. If you dont like a thread, no one forces you to read or comment though.

Hopefully someone gains some knowledge from athread and thats the most important thing.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 14:10

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 14:10
The interesting thing I find is people come on here with very little knowledge and ask a simple question that for some reason turns in to a Uni lecture and confusers the poor person more to a point some just simple give up....... or they use incorrect information the have obtained by misunderstanding the Uni lectures.

The KISS principal is still king.

At least there are no long calculations in any of these post so that must be a good thing for once.

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Reply By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 12:58

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 12:58
Cruiser,

We like to be self-sufficient for long camps in out-of-the-way places.

This works for me:

In the tug I have a 110Ah semi-sealed wet dual purpose auxilliary under the bonnet.

In the van I have 360Ah of lithium batteries (recently replacing a tired 320Ah AGM battery bank)

Both batteries are charged by their own DC-DC charger programmed to suit their chemistries.

All cabling is 6 B&S.

On the roof of the van there are 200 watts of solar and I also carry 240 watts of portable panels. Our fall-back is a 2kVA Honda generator and a 40 amp mains charger.

When we're travelling we run a 55 litre car fridge as a freezer at -10 deg C. When driving this is powered from the aux in the tug, supported of course by the alternator. When camped it is powered from the van.

The van has a 130 litre compressor fridge, diesel powered HWS and diesel cooktop (both of which require amps to run if we use them) plus led lights, etc. No TV! When camped with the car fridge/freezer running off the van our total daily consumption averages about 80Ah.

Our solar supports all that most of the time, exceptions being southern latitudes in winter and cloudy weather. We are good for about 4 days with no sun before we need to run the generator.

Recently the tug's alternator failed en-route to a camp. We limped into camp on the two tug batteries. I had built the whole electrical system to provide some options in just this kind of situation. By changing some circuit breaker/switches around I was able to backfeed 12V to the tug from the van and re-charge the tug from the van's solar. After our week's camp we drove 5 and a half hours home with the tug powered by the van, supported by the van's roof top solar.
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 16:41

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 16:41
Frank,

Please blog the details for the benefit of others. Sounds a really good rig.

Cheers

John
J and V
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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 21:06

Saturday, Oct 11, 2014 at 21:06
Thanks John, I will.

I'm about to leave on a 2 week trip. Will set about it when I return.

Cheers
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