200series batteries

Submitted: Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 10:40
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looking for good honest advice regarding my new 200 series battery set up.Has anyone increased battery size running one as cranking other as auxilary?? If so can In get away without having to increase weight and major shuffle fitting 3rd battery?
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Reply By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 11:26

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 11:26
I would suggest you have a look on the LCOOL forum, splitting the batteries has been
covered in great detail there, some simply split batteries and use simple VSR, others also install one of my booster diodes to up the charge rate and others have chosen to use a DCDC charger.

I would use existing batteries till the battery that becomes the aux dies and then repalce it with either a Marine Pro, Optima or other deep cycle battery.

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Leigh

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Reply By: Member - Phil H (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 11:36

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 11:36
Leigh,
Many thanks yr reply.Will check out LCOOL 1st.
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Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:42

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:42
Hi Phil

On my new 200 series I decided against the idea of placing a diode to increase the alternator charge rate...I have this system on my '79 series but believe what I did on my 200 series is superior

The 200 will start very happily on one battery.....even the existing type OEM batteries...I did this for a month or so until I completed my alterations on the battery system

After a lot of thought ( am member of Lcool and lots of info there as stated by others)... I did the following

1) Replaced the passenger (start) battery with an Optima Gold Top....
2) Removed the + battery wire connecting the 2 batteries..so no longer in parallel
3) Replaced the driver battery with an AGM 105 ah as the AUX
4) Installed a Redarc DCDC 25 charger to manage the now AUX battery on the drivers side

It works a treat





Life is a journey, it is not how we fall down, it is how we get up.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil H (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:47

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:47
Sorry mate missed yr post due to my very slow typing skills. Great I'm on the right track. Thanks guys so much all good advice.
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Reply By: Member - Phil H (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:44

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:44
Leigh,
Think I will stick to simple VSR splitting N70 crank AGM aux DC:DC charger.Worried about boiling N70 if I lift charging voltage for AGM. Appreciate yr comments.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:58

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:58
Shouldn't be any problem for the N70, the charge voltage will only increase to around 14.2V hot engine bay, most modern batteries don't mind higher charge voltages as they are either calcium hybrids or full calcium.

You could just use a VSR and see how you get on, if you don't use the system often the standard charging system might suufice. As I said check out LCOOL, many have VSR with diode, many have DCDC chargers, both give good results, VSR will give quicker recharge times than a 20A DCDC charger.

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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 13:12

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 13:12
Phil,

If you're concerned about the effects of increased voltage on the crank battery, then logically you should have the same concern for your AGM aux.

A DC-DC charger would be my preference too, but I would make sure it had temperature compensation and stopped charging at a battery temp of about 50 degC. Try and find a charger that has a remote temperature probe so it measures as close as possible actual battery temperature and not environmental temperature.

My system is like your proposed one and does the compensation and high temp cutout. It also records max battery temp. I have seen 62 degC recorded - that's way too hot to be charging most deep cycle batteries.

Note the word "most". You may find one that can take it.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 13:29

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 13:29
Frank P,

What is the charge voltage of your proposed DCDC charger as a matter of interest?

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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 14:15

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 14:15
Leigh,

It is programmable.
I can set the boost current to anything between 0 and 25 amps,
absorption voltage to anything between 14.0V and 15.5V in 0.1V steps and float to anything between 13.0 to 14.5 in 0.1V steps.

So you can set it up for any 12V lead-acid battery, and even lithium.

It also has an adjustable setting for output cable length. You calibrate the unit by setting a cable length so that when working hard (eg at 25 amps) it reads the same battery voltage on its screen as a multimeter across the battery. In this way, if it is mounted remotely from the battery the battery voltage it sees is the actual battery voltage, compensating for high current and long leads.

It is temperature compensated, has a remote temperature sensor, and stops charging at a battery temp of 50 degC.

There are many other features.

It's a Ranox. It's only disadvantage is that it's no longer available.


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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 14:24

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 14:24
Frank modern chargers such as the Redarcs and the Cteks don't give you that ability, the Redarcs charge at 14.4V@22C max and the Cteks at 14.5C@25c from memory. A standard alternator will charge at 14.4V@22C or there abouts and a boosted one at around 14.2V - 14.4V@22C.

As you can see from the above, there all more or less the same, the DCDC chargers slightly higher than a 200 series alternator with booster diode fitted, therefore if your worried about high charge voltages the DCDC is not going to be better.

Most commonly available chargers these days are not programmable like the Ranox and a programmable unit would not be a keep shout.

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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 14:55

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 14:55
Leigh,

".... therefore if your worried about high charge voltages the DCDC is not going to be better."

I think they would be if they had remote sensors (as mine does) and were fully temperature compensated. I know the Ctek (D250S) has that, I don't know about Redarc and other products. Possibly some are temp compensated but rely on environmental temps, not via a probe.

"Most commonly available chargers these days are not programmable like the Ranox and a programmable unit would not be a keep shout."

Sadly you are correct on both counts. It was competitive with the few that were available in the early days, but as the big fellas (Redarc, Projecta, Ctek and others) came on the market Ranox, which was a leader in the field at the time and totally made in Australia, could not compete.

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Frank

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 15:10

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 15:10
The alternator is also temperature compensated, redarc from memory doesn't and most don't use then with Cteks either. Remote sensing may or may not be good, if the battery is located in the engine bay then the alternator or indeed a charger located in the engine bay should be able to provide adequate temperature compensation.

If the charger is located outside the engine bay or the battery is remote from the charger then remote probes can be handy as the charge voltages may be lower than they could be due to the charge source being in a hotter environment.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 15:17

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 15:17
Forgot to comment on Ranox, as your well aware I'm not pro DCDC unless the situation really requires one to be used, as I believe simple VSR setups in most cases work better. Ranox problem was their advertising, the other players weighed up the market and realised if you can sell a DCDC to everyone regardless of it is actually needed or not there was big money to be made and that is exactly what they have done.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 15:20

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 15:20
Above " redarc from memory doesn't and most don't use then with Cteks either."

The above should have read redarc don't have remote probes from memory and most Ctek users don't use them.

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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 16:13

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 16:13
HKB Electronics, the reason that Ranox is no longer in production is that they were initially hand making them. They were prepared to forgo a profitable operation until they set themselves up for volume production. When they shopped around for someone to supply the boards they could not get anyone to supply the quantities they required at a reasonable price. All the manufacturers required production runs far in excess of what they could handle. The result was they ceased production. It was purely an economic decision based on the expected small volume of sales they reckoned would be expected at the time. Since then the market has been supplied by big players with the financial backing to weather the initial lean years. It's a pity, they are a very flexible unit.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 16:31

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 16:31
PeterD,

I must say I'm amazed if that was the case, why did not not simply make the PCB's in house?

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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 17:09

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 17:09
Leigh,

If you saw the PCB you would understand.

It's a very sophisticated and compact unit, with many miniature surface-mounted components. Extremely fiddly, difficult and time consuming to assemble by hand.

They (just two blokes, one in Melbourne, one in Cobram) did do the first production lot by hand and realised there were better things to do than sit in a shed for 12 hours a day going blind.

They got a reasonable quote from an Aussie CB assembler who did a run for them, but then jacked the price up immensely for following orders. That's what made it uneconomic. The only real option was to take it to China, which would have meant taking a plunge they didn't want to take.

Those of us who have one (or two :-)) are very fortunate.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 18:00

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 18:00
Fair enough but unfortunately if you want to succeed in business 12 hour + days and mortgaging the house are the norm:)

All gets back to good management, have you a product the consumer wants, ie have you done your market research. Can you make it at cost effective price. If the answer is yes then with effort, good management, and advertising hopefully it will sell.

From what you have written about Ranox they would appear to have not done there home work or wouldn't have started down the path they did, unfortunately it therefore comes down to bad management.

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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 18:06

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 18:06
Leigh, about 1 in three businesses in Oz fail within the first two years. They gave it a go and found that it was just too much trouble, so they went into other fields. Simple as that.
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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 18:08

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 18:08
Whatever.

It's off topic so that's it from me.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 00:05

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 00:05
Hi Leigh,
Are you suggesting that Phil H (the OP) fit a voltage booster (and supply unrestricted current) to his AGM battery under the bonnet?
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 10:25

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 10:25
Phil,

Is this now to degenerate into the old VSR versus DCDC charger brawl or am are reading this wrong?

OP other stated N70 crank AGM, one could therefore reasonable assume that the intended battery has no limitation on charge rate, it may be a marine type, an Optima, or one of many other AGM's on the market that will happily charge directly off an alternator.

As with any installation, it is up to the installer to chose a battery that is suitable for charge method employed.

If one wishes to use a restricted charge rate type battery under bonnet, then you need to manage charge rate, though why one would use a slow charging battery when one intends recharging batteries in average drive times is a bit of a puzzle.

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 13:30

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 13:30
Lets talk about stewing batteries.

We frequently get this concern about stewing batteries with increased charge voltage......mostly this is completly unwaranted.

In times past when we used non sealed screw top batteries the charge voltage on alternators was in general kept to arround 13.8 volts.
This was to keep gassing and electrolite loss to a minimum.

with the advent of sealed maintenance free batteries...with calcium in their plates, modified electrolite and a preasurised container.

They will tolerate 14.5 volt charge.

The calcium in the plates and the modified electrolite actually require a slightly higher charge voltage.

The calcium in the plates and the modified electrolite are required to allow the battery to be sealed...it reduces gassing.

The preasurisation allows the recombination of what gasses are generated into liquid which is retured to the electrolite.

Glass mat has not a thing to do with this recombination cycle or the need for the calcium in the plates or the modified electrolite OR the charge voltage.

How does this play out in reality...I have a dual battery system in my 4wd.
It consists of two"Seamaster gold" N70 batteries (sealed maintenence free wett cell batteries) connected by a simple VSR.

The old alternator charged at 13.8V ( because the vehicle came from the factory with a screw top battery).
I replaced the alternator due to age concerns, the new one charges at 14.5 volts as would be expected for a pre ECU controlled alternator for a vehicle fitted with a sealed maintenance free battery.

This arrangement has been in place for over 3 years....for the last 18 months this vehicle was driven daily minimum of two 30 miniute trips and a number of 3 or 4 hour highway days.

All is good.

Now back to my hobby horse about AGM.

There are sealed maintenance free battreries with glass mat packed between the cells, that have all the technology and advantages of AGM ( absorbed glass mat) batteries, but they have not been starved of electrolite, ( there is more electrolite than can be absorbed by the glass mat) so they tolerate higher temperatures and higher chage rates better.

If you have a modern sealed maintenence free battery and an AGM battery...it is the AGM battery that will suffer from being stewewed.

AND not simply from the charge voltage, but because of the charge voltage combined with temperature.

AGM is being heavily over sold and there are people with AGM batteries being disapointed... because..... contrary to what they have been sold, AGM has no advantage to them and the AGM battery is suffeering due to poor heat tolerance..particularly when installed under bonnet.

cheers
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 16:09

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 16:09
Geezzzz..... A battery charging expert who is also an expert in business, what will EO offer next?

There is a lot more to putting a new product in the marketplace and make it survive then what has been mentined.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 16:35

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 16:35
Of course there is, since I have run a business for over 30 years that has successfully manufactured and marketed products I think I have earned the right comment.

What products have you manufactured and marketed successfully lately olcoolone?

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 19:40

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 19:40
I am yet to see anything that requires truly expert knowledge discussed on this forum.

Most of the contencuous arguements revolve arround not even grasping the simple basics....basics that are pretty well known and documented.

BUT as I see every day.....people seem to look for the complicated and expensive solutions rather than deal with the simple basics they don't want to believe will work.

cheers
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 21:30

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 21:30
There's more money to be made from selling high tech solutions than simple tried and tested ones, and more expensive wiz bang gear must be better surely?

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 22:20

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 22:20
Hmmm yeh brother.

I must make a correction to my follow up post #18

The nominal voltage of my alternator is 14.2 volts not the posted 14.5.

Appart from that the post stands correct.

The 14.2 volts is what would be yeilded if I would have fitted a booster diode to the 13.8 volt alternator.

cheers
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 08:20

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 08:20
Not saying anything Leigh, I think I am more then qualified to comment on business practices...... including manufacturing, helping start ups and high end financing and funding....... plus activity involved in a large BEC.

Rule 101 of running a business Leigh is to understand who your competitors are, the products they sell/manufacture and their services 110%...... something you seem to lack a bit.

It's the foundations of any swot and without a swot your history.

There were a few more things why to two Allan's from Ranox gave it away. great product and fitted and sold many.

There are many who have run businesses for 30 years who run on a wing and a pray....... these days it's called running smarter.

It's good to see a battery thread always bring out the experts, hence why I have given up contributing, now I just site back and smile.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 09:53

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 09:53
Yeh not interested in contributing but quite happy to piss on other peoples posts.

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 11:20

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 11:20
Yes maybe because people who contribute get bullied by a few!

And then you have the ones who over run threads by offering biased advice and not the full picture.

Yes I am like many others who use to and can offer sensible opinions and advice but like others before me there is a tendency to get ...as you said " bleep on' by a small group.

It is funny how the post was to do with the 200 series Landcruiser...... and I can only see three people who responded who actually owns a 200 series..... me as one of them.

There are certain topics that seem to attract a lot of responses and battery stuff is one of them....it's one of the topics that seem to get overrun by a few who may get a financial reward for their bias efforts.

If someone want advice on a yellow car.... and you only like red cars, it's no excuse to attack others who like yellow cars for there comments...... it's an open forum where all opinions should be respected, no one is right or wrong....just miss guided.

It's never been hidden that I own an auto elec business (one that I will not spruik on here or any other forum}, just that I have chosen to not comment on auto electrical stuff any more...... I leave that to the experts.

As said; financial rewards can often blur the big picture by not offering all options.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 11:30

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 11:30
olcoolone,

So you haven't actually manufactured or marketed any products yourself?

I'm quite happy where I stand at this time, any Australian business that can survive in the manufacture arena these days is doing well. As you say, you have no idea of who I am, where I come from or what I have been or presently involved in.

Unfortunately I can't recall you actually having contributed any useful input to this forum for a long long time, it is always critiquing others input.

But then again once you wrote, "I only work on big stuff", another time "I'm not an expert I employ others who are" so maybe it's better if you don't.

I think the main reason you gave up contributing is you always push DCDC chargers as it an easy one stop fits all solution for your business, anyone who doesn't agree with your philosophy doesn't know what there talking about or so you say.

Enough said.

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 12:23

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 12:23
Yes we do manufacture our own products and have so since 1990, maybe a little different to your products but ever the same, so you manufacture other products do you?

Leigh I am not even going to get in a conversation with you, I have read your bias answers on many forum over the years, as long as your making money and you enjoy it keep doing it.

It is one reason I don't need to or advertise on forums as I am able separate my business from pleasure, if you don't it becomes very muddy. I find money and profit overrides truths in may instances...... Bit like buying a TV and the saleperson tells you to buy X brand over Y brand...... you have to ask yourself is it truthful honest unbiased advice or is it profit driven. Your the only one who can answer that Leigh.

"Unfortunately I can't recall you actually having contributed any useful input to this forum for a long long time, it is always critiquing others input."

....... Yes as I said above, There are certain topics that seem to attract a lot of responses and battery stuff is one of them....it's one of the topics that seem to get overrun by a few who may get a financial reward for their bias efforts.

It may be the main reason I have a lot of respect and time for Derik from ABR Sidewinder...... good business ethics.

Yes enough said.......
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 14:18

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 14:18
Yes I have manufactured many different products in the past for my own business as well as others ranging from CDI ignition system and pointless distributor conversions and intermittent wiper modules back in the 70's thru to audio video equipment and replacement modules for TV etc. I have done contract work and supplied consulting engineering advice to some of the biggest multinationals in Australia and involved with the product development, design and marketing of over 40 high tech products for different companies, only one of which didn't make a profit but I did argue vehementally against its launch but the company decided to still go ahead and launch the product for strategic reasons and wear the loss.

My current product is purely to keep me busy since I retired at 50, I'm not reliant on the sales for income, my main reason for developing the product was for my own needs, others asked if I could do the same for them and then I decided to offer it as a cost effective alternative to a DCDC charger. You once wrote that I'm ripping people of yet on of the companies I believe you support now offer a similar product at over three times the cost of my base unit but I have never seen you critise them.

I do offer unbiased opinion, as all my customers and as many on other forums will tell you. One of my main bug bears is you and has been since we debated the pros and cons of VSR versus DCDC chargers on another forum. Simple fact is you and your business prefer to use DCDC chargers as it a one stop solution, as you have written before, it an easy option for you. Unfortunately as far as your concerned anyone else who offers a different opinion to you is offering biased advice.

I don't believe I have ever seen you recommend a non DCDC charger solution to anyone regardless of whether it was required or not.

I have worked with cutting edge technology all my life, I seem many old tech reliable system replaced with state of the art high tech equipment only to see them pulled out and replaced with low tech after a couple of years. Sometimes low tech simply works best.

If a DCDC charger is required I'll tell someone so if they ask, if a simple VSR will work better and in a lot of cases it will then go that path.

Again I don't believe I have ever seen one instance of you recommending a simple VSR setup yet you say I offer biased advice.

My first post advised the OP to visit LCOOL as much information is available there, I also wrote many have done what he wants using VSR or VSR with booster if required, and DCDC chargers with good results, where is the biased advice?

A recent survey on another site showed 2/3 of members were using a VSR with good results to charge both their car and trailer batteries, the survey was started by someone who I suspect wanted to prove simple VSR don't work, it back fired on him!

Yet again I have never seen you recommend a VSR setup as according to you they don't work.

I have come across many cases of people being talked into upgrading to a DCDC charger only having to pull it out again when they have found it didn't perform as well as there old system simple VSR system did.

Simple truth is DCDC have their place but they are not the be all end all you would like people to believe they are.

Obviously Redarc, Piranha and the many other makers of VSR's think there is a place in the market for a good old VSR.


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Follow Up By: get outmore - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 15:25

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 15:25
crikeys all this for just that?
maybe its just me but id split the batterys - havnt done it but surely it cant be that hard
and whichever wasnt the main starting battery id use that as the auxilery
id by a cheap redarc to direct charge to what is now my aux battery
id then over the course of the next couple of weeks keep running a multimeter to the second battery to see if it remains getting sufficient charge - this would include at least one hopefully 2 overnighters where the system could be checked real world

THEN id decide IF there actually IS an issue with the second battery not getting enough charge
if there WAS id look at corrective steps which should be a simple add in
if NOT then i wouldnt go looking for a problem for the solution .
While I have zero to base this on I suspect these new "smart" alternators arnt as much of an issue for second batteries the grand keepers of every thing to do with electrons would have you believe
but it makes cool looking posts about ohms, resistors and just the general 12V crap fight
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 16:02

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 16:02
Couldn't agree more, keep it simple. I suspect a lot of the dual battery systems that are installed are only used for a couple of weekends a year. I tell people try it out, if you find your having problems down the track then you can look at the other options available then.

If your going to be relying on the system on a daily basis then you need to do your home work, how much battery capacity do you need, no charging system is going to make up for insufficient amp hours, are you going to supplement with solar, how to you intend to use the system, if your going to mainly free camp for long periods with little travel then maybe just going solar would be a better option.

Everyone is different, no one stop solution is going to suite all.

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 16:57

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 16:57
Haven't said what form of charging is good, better or best and have installed many VSR's as I have also installed many DC-DC chargers.

One thing that is very important before giving advice on what is needed is to ask the customer 1)what they expect out of it, 2)what is there usage, 3)how they want to accomplice it, 4)what they want the out come to be and 5) what are their future plans.

Once this information is obtained, then and only then give them quality advice and options.

It seems the experts have forgotten the 5 vital steps and gave advice on a solution with out understanding the problem or requirements.AGAIN

So Leigh.... why did you forget these 5 important steps?

It never seems to amaze me some topics turn in to a uni lecture by a few.

BTW Leigh... this is the first post on this thread where I have mentioned anything about charging, VSR's and DC-DC charging...... and then it was only in the opening line and this paragraph.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 17:37

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 17:37
Once again, do you actually ever read anything or write or just automatically criticise it?

The OP posted:
"Looking for good honest advice regarding my new 200 series battery set up.Has anyone increased battery size running one as cranking other as auxilary?? If so can In get away without having to increase weight and major shuffle fitting 3rd battery?"

I suggested the OP do some research on LCOOL, I pointed what others have used and yes what he wanted to achieve was possibly, ie he do his research and find out what he needs.

I also wrote in the post above "If your going to be relying on the system on a daily basis then you need to do your home work, how much battery capacity do you need, no charging system is going to make up for insufficient amp hours, are you going to supplement with solar, how to you intend to use the system, if your going to mainly free camp for long periods with little travel then maybe just going solar would be a better option." ie do your research.

I also remember a while ago suggesting that someone only need a VSR and booster diode, you immediately jumped on board with the usually vested interest etc. Sidewinder then also responded "with I sell DCDC chargers and you don't need one just a VSR and booster diode". I noticed you didn't attack your mate, yes your right, Sidewinder does on many occasions give unbiased opinion, not so you.

And your the one that turned it into a uni lecture, been doing a small business course lately?

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 18:13

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 18:13
And yes your write, it is the first time you have mentioned anything to do with the OP question, as usual you have spent all your time criteqing others posts instead of actually inputting any useful content.

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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 13:21

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 13:21
Yes, it's a common mod with no issues starting off the passengers side battery.
My suggestion is to use a 100Ah Marine battery as the aux. It copes fine with the extra heat (can top up the water if necessary) and unlike many AGMs, has no restrictions on charging current. It has the additional posts and the terminals are orientated the correct way for the drivers side of the 200series and the original battery clamp fits perfectly. I use the Century marine prp N70ZM which cost $153 from a small shop in Adelaide.
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Follow Up By: Member - Frank P (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 14:21

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 14:21
Phil H (OP)

FWIW, I chose a wet dual purpose battery for my aux for the same reasons Phil G has mentioned. The Prado is very hot under the bonnet - I said My charger has recorded a 62 degC battery temp. That battery has been going fine for about 4 years. It's a Supercharge Allrounder.

Cheers
FrankP

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Reply By: Member - Phil H (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 16:08

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 16:08
You've all been so helpful.Most suggestions are similar to my set up in the 100series.E.g. cranking battery separate aux battery ..charged via VSR with dash switch to parallel if needed for cold starts in Vict high country etc. Had welding cable via overload to Anderson plug (voltage drop still too great, so fitted ctec DCDC charger at AGM batteries-no further probs) After reading and absorbing, I'm concerned about the additional ambient temp under the bonnet of the 200series
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 21:43

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 21:43
Phil, are you saying you had welding cable from the aux battery under the bonnet running to the rear anderson plug then to a trailer with AGM's ( presume that run was also welding cable ) and you had too much voltage drop ???

I have 14mm2 cable from the main batteries ( still hooked up in parallel ) to the rear anderson plug through a CSL isolator and charging 3 X 120 a/h AGM batteries in the van and I have no problems fully charging them.

But I do have a booster diode !! And I was thinking of a dc/dc charger before the diode , but certainly not now !!
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil H (NSW) - Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 22:21

Friday, Nov 21, 2014 at 22:21
Gronk,
What I said was I have welding cable from overload to Anderson plug . The second Anderson plug to the Cteck charger is 6mm. Red dust and rough roads are responsible for high resistant joints with Anderson plugs.Years ago when having a break and cupper I felt the Anderson plugs and they were quite warm. Checked at Weipa and found voltage vat AGMs only 12.6volts after 5hrs driving and continualy flat in the morning with just 60l freezer. That's when I decided to fit the DCDC Ctek . Never had battery issues since.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 09:59

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 09:59
You might have had a problem with one anderson plug, but it's not typical to have high resistance joints with them....dust and vibration shouldn't worry them, but if you had a problem, then the best remedy is to replace the lugs and start again.

If you only had 12.6 V because of a high resistance, then this should be addressed , even if you DO have a dc/dc charger..

People with dc/dc chargers still need to run decent size wires to not only reduce voltage drop, but also to maintain current carrying capacity..

Don't forget that even though the voltage can be a little lower ( why people get the dc/dc in the 1st place ) the same (or more ) current still needs to be carried from the main battery to the van/camper batt(s).
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 10:36

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 10:36
Gronk,

I too as do many others charge trailer batteries without the need for a DCDC charger, in my case a VistaRV I have no problems charging the two 100Ah batteries located in the van. Depending how you use the system a DCDC can be a boon or a deficit.

I also agree with your comments regarding the anderson plugs, if there dropping that much voltage they need replacing.

As for under bonnet temperatures, a lot of vehicles have the batteries located in cool air streams, ie behind the headlights, depending on how the car is being used the situation might not be as bad as it seems, would require actual measurements though to find out.

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Follow Up By: Gronk - Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 23:43

Saturday, Nov 22, 2014 at 23:43
I have a 200 series with one of your booster diodes charging 3 X 120 a/h batts in my Lifestyle AT 10 and have no probs charging them either !!
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Reply By: Gronk - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 15:22

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 15:22
I have replied to a couple of others posts, but to your ORIGINAL post.....yes you can increase battery size as well as split them, but if you increase battery size, you will increase weight ( slightly )...

And, you won't need a dc/dc charger !!

Now , how easy was that ??
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Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 23:11

Sunday, Nov 23, 2014 at 23:11
Hi Phil,

Wow, a lot of advice and SO much conflicting! I have had a 200 for 6 years now and can only offer what my experience has been.

I split my batteries just after I bought my 200 and still have the "original" replacement starter battery, but am on my 3rd aux battery. I have used a Marine battery for my AUX and while I still believe its the best battery for the job, without a dc/dc charger it simply doesn't get the correct charge from the 200 alternator.

This experience is unlike my prior GU and 80 series cruiser, but neither of these had temperature sensitive alternators. My old 4x4's charged at ~14.2V consistently, but the 200 varies depending on ambient temperature. While 14.2V from the 200 is achievable, it is typically 13.2-13.4V. This "low" voltage is simply not enough to recharge the aux battery if it has been deeply discharged.

The 200 alternator is fine for its intended purpose, keeping the starter battery fully charged. This is confirmed by the fact my vehile is still on the "original" replacement battery 5+ years on. However, its also confirmed that the AUX battery is NOT properly charged by the alternator (mainly used to run a fridge when camping), based on the 3rd battery (and requiring replacement again) after 5 years.

So, knowing the above, what should I do????

While I could add the diode to increase the charging voltage, I do NOT think is the best solution. My starter battery has performed perfectly for 5 years and I believe I would be changing the issue from the AUX battery to the Starter battery. Toyota has proven that the temp sensitive alternator works well for its designed purpose (charging the starter battery), so why change a known good system?

I believe a dc/dc is the best (bit not cheapest) option. It will overcome the low charging voltage of the AUX battery while not affecting the good starter battery charging performance.

I never used to believe in dc/dc chargers, well until I couldn't get a decent charge into my camper batteries. I had a huge (64mm2 copper - welding cable) to my camper, yet it could never charge properly, unlike my previous GU and 80 series that had a similar setup for charging my camper. The only difference was the low charging voltage from the 200due to the temp compensating alternator.

Once I fitted a dc/dc to my camper, have never had an issue with the camper batteries using the 200. I have yet to fit a dc/dc to my 200, but it will be done before I repalce my AUX battery yet again!

Cheers

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Follow Up By: Gronk - Monday, Nov 24, 2014 at 19:19

Monday, Nov 24, 2014 at 19:19
And what you have done is the same as most others with these fancy "smart" alternators.

I have 3 x 120 a/h of AGM batts in my van and they get charged just fine.....but I have one of the booster diodes..

A dc /dc charger is another method, but one I didn't believe I needed to do.....but don't worry, it was going to be the next thing I did if the booster diode didn't work.

Captain, even though the starter batt is original, there is no reason the aux batt shouldn't last the same amount of time....but you have used a different type of battery. And a lot of other factors can cloud the issue as well.....like how many times do you cycle the aux down to a lowish voltage, heat under the bonnet, etc etc ?

The trouble with trying to run 2 dc/dc chargers in conjunction with each other is well documented and you are very likely to have charging problems.

Mine is an 09 model still running the original batts ( not split ),but running a different brand of aux should make no difference as far as charging goes...if the original batt can last 5 yrs then so should an aux.....BUT it's what you do with the aux battery is what makes the difference....and type of aux ( an AGM will be more prone to heat ).

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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Monday, Nov 24, 2014 at 22:04

Monday, Nov 24, 2014 at 22:04
Hi Gronk,

The Starter battery uses less than an amp.hr to start the vehicle (~500A for 5 seconds = ~ 0.7a/hr). But an AUX battery can often use around ~50 A/hr before recharging.

Getting 0.7 a/hr back into a battery is relatively easy, regardless of the charge voltage. But try and get 50 a/hr back is a much harder task, especially when you have a low charging battery.

The reason Starter batteries last longer these days is the very reason AUX batteries don't - the low charge voltage.

While the diode fix certainly helps out the AUX battery charging, the the Starter battery is now ALWAYS getting a high charge voltage and this dos not help out Starter battery life :(

Unfortunately you cannot have your cake and eat it too - unless you use a dc/dc. This way the AUX is charged properly AND the Starter gets the benefit of lower charge voltage :)

Of course if you don't run your AUX battery down too low, then the issue is far less. But my AUX battery is used to run 1 or 2 Engels and this means often they get pretty low, hence my issues :(

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil H (NSW) - Tuesday, Nov 25, 2014 at 12:57

Tuesday, Nov 25, 2014 at 12:57
captain(WA)
Have not been replying as thread has become overheated and personal.As you have had your 200series for 6yrs I'm very much in agreement with your solution. My AGM batteries cooked in my Kimberley Kamper after 13mths. Fitted same again but Ctek 240 charger plus Ctek DCDC charger when on the road or via 120w solar panel straight into KK Anderson plug. That was 7 or 8 yrs ago and still O.K. My decision is fit Anderson plug and that's it until I do a few runs.
To all who have contributed thank you all very much. I will be seeking further info re 200 series in future.
Lastly how long have you had your Quantum and where have you been with it??
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Tuesday, Nov 25, 2014 at 13:23

Tuesday, Nov 25, 2014 at 13:23
The starter battery used in the 100 series just a plain old starter battery as you had in your GU, the higher charge voltage in the GU didn't kill the battery why would a similar charge voltage in your 200 now become detrimental to your 200 series battery? There are many booster diodes in use by 200 owners with no adverse affects being reported, including many ExploreOz members.

All alternators are temperature compensated, some newer alternators however much more so than is needed to maintain the correct charge voltage for the battery.

Totally disagree with your statement "The reason Starter batteries last longer these days is the very reason AUX batteries don't, the low charge voltage"

The lower charge voltages have nothing to do with improving battery life just the opposite in fact. Toyota lowered the charge voltage as an easy way to meet emission requirements and to lower fuel consumption figures, if you don't believe me ask them or do some research on the net. Also checkout the battery manufactures websites, newer technology batteries generally require higher charge voltages, yet car manufacturers are lowering the charge voltages?

The next generation smart charge systems are just a more advanced version again for the same reasons listed above but they do have an advantage, they monitor the SOC of the battery, and when they see the batteries SOC is dropping they restore the charge voltages to normal levels till the battery recovers. A high compensation alternator does not have the inbuilt smarts to do this.

Toyota have been mostly using high compensation alternators on Diesel models, the same models with Petrol motor retained standard alternators. Some of the latest Petrol models are also using now using high compensation alternators again for emission and fuel consumption above reasons. By the way I don't recall ever seeing the term high compensation alternators till I started using it with regards to my booster diodes.

Till I purchased my Prado 120 I had no problems with my vehicles battery, my cranking batteries have always lasted longer than 5 years, and I had never had problems charging my aux's. The Prado was a different story until I developed my booster diode I had to keep topping up its battery with a charger. When I'm at home my cars tend to do short trips and garaged for a few days at a time, the alternator simply could not replace what was being taken out of the starter battery when the vehicle was driven. This was never a problem with my previous vehicles. Same for aux, no problems with previous vehicles but just not enough charge voltage available with the 120.

I was talking to the manager of a government tech department the other day, they changed their fleet of four cars to models using high compensation alternators a few years ago, all four vehicles purchased at different times have had their batteries replaced under warranty. They use the vehicles to attend remote equipment installations, a few days in a week they travel long distance, then short trips around the city or the cars may sit for a week or so before being used again. Quite often when they go to start the the cars they have flat batteries. This problem has only occurred with the new type alternators.

You have decided to go with a DCDC charger and that's fine but your statement using a booster diode will shorten the life of the cranking battery is incorrect and has proven not to be the case in the many vehicles that have a booster diode installed.

By the way, the last cranking battery in my Prado was still going after 6 years, booster diode has been fitted for 5 and a half years. I only changed it as I felt it was getting a bit long in the tooth and have some serious touring coming up.

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Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, Nov 25, 2014 at 14:34

Tuesday, Nov 25, 2014 at 14:34
Well, I think that answers your thinking of "saving" the starter battery from a boosted voltage via a booster diode.

As said, you will probably run into trouble trying to use 2 dc/dc chargers in the system, but with a booster diode, you should do no harm to your main battery and also maybe get a better life out of the aux battery as well..

I have no problems keeping 360 a/h of van batts charged with the booster diode, but you already have a dc/dc charger, so stick with that .
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Tuesday, Nov 25, 2014 at 15:19

Tuesday, Nov 25, 2014 at 15:19
Should be no issue having multiple chargers. Each charger should be individual feed from the charger source as cascading them ie one chargers the aux then another connected to the aux feeds the van as it will seriously limit the available charge current.

Well you say no one would be silly enough to cascade them that way?

A recent post on another forum was by a member complaining his Ctek in the van wasn't charging the van battery. It turned out an auto electrician told him he needed a DCDC charger in the car to overcome the low voltage issue. He installed a Redacr DCDC charger in the car which he then connected directly to an anderson plug to feed the van and the Ctek there in. The owner was trying to find out why the Ctek wouldn't wouldn't fire up!

In the case of the 200 series they also need to be low voltage type chargers.

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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Nov 27, 2014 at 07:45

Thursday, Nov 27, 2014 at 07:45
Hi Phil,

I have had my Quantum for nearly 4 years and while I have used it offroad a fair bit, have yet to do some of the more iconic AUS trips. Work has kept me too busy to take enough time off, but hope that will change!

I too normally try and keep away from these types of threads as the seemingly innocent questions asked by the OP go off-track as the commercial sellers come on with their biased perspectives that co-incidentally support the products they sell... hmmm :(

Hi HBK

If you don't understand how a higher charging voltage affects battery life, well may I suggest you read up on battery chemistry and the chemical processes inside the battery!

To compare the underbonnet of a 3.0TD GU that has a battery heat shroud vented to the wheel arch to the crowded engine bay of the 200 that has a V8, 2 turbos and 2 batteries as standard, well just the physical difference alone has an effect.

It is your right to disagree with my statement "... The reason Starter batteries last longer these days is the very reason AUX batteries don't, the low charge voltage..." no matter how wrong you may be. But to confuse what Toyota did with the 200 series alternator with other manufacturers reasons for their voltage changes, perhaps I am not the one who needs to do more net research?

A diode fix has a place as a low cost solution for some circumstances, but to think its a cure-all for every situation... well people can draw their own conclusions!

Cheers
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Thursday, Nov 27, 2014 at 13:35

Thursday, Nov 27, 2014 at 13:35
Toyota introduced the lower voltages across several models for the reason I listed, Prado, FJ cruiser, Kluger, Hilux, Most LC series with diesel engines, now also coming into the petrol engines and not just the 200 series as you imply.

I have also I been informed they raised the voltages again slightly in the latest models to address the problems caused by the lower charge voltages.

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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Nov 27, 2014 at 18:20

Thursday, Nov 27, 2014 at 18:20
The OP asked about specific information for the 200. I gave him my experience. Along comes a seller of products, does some blatant self-promotion and then criticises that low voltage alternators for all sorts of models weren't mentioned - what has that got to do with the question the OP asked????

HBK - as an advertiser here, IMHO you have a responsibility to promote your product fairly. Virtually every product has advantages and dis-advantages, so to only mention advantages is misleading.

As I said before, diode fuses have their place, but are not a fix-all solution. Short haul trips around town with standard 200 batteries vs long haul trips with and AUX and Starter battery have an impact on what is the "best" solution - which will always be a compromise.

Sorry Phil, you asked a genuine question and got more than you bargained for. As others have recommended, check out LCOOL where the moderators clamp down hard on guys who offer advice who don't have the vehicle in question but are willing to sell you their product.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Thursday, Nov 27, 2014 at 21:34

Thursday, Nov 27, 2014 at 21:34
So your saying Toyota lowered their charging voltages to increase battery life unlike other manufactures for pollution reasons, what rubbish!

From Redarcs website as everyone loves to quote them:

"Australia is following the trend occurring in the rest of the world regarding reducing pollution from new vehicles and from next year they must meet even tighter exhaust emission standards. New cars sold in Australia from 2013 must meet ‘Euro 5’ exhaust emissions standards and the tougher ‘Euro 6’ standard around 2017. As the standards have been becoming progressively tighter over recent years car manufacturers in their quest to meet the new standards have had to introduce new technology. They have designed the ECU to interconnect with the alternator and monitor electrical load. The ECU can control important engine functions via the CANBUS including injection duration and timing to better control emissions as loads vary. The ECU can even shut off the alternator in certain circumstances, adjust the alternator output voltage, and preload the alternator when the load changes. We refer to these alternators as ECU Controlled Variable Voltage Alternators.

For the most part, the changes made by vehicle manufacturers are aimed at increasing fuel efficiency, whilst reducing engine emissions. They can also frustrate the 4WD enthusiast however, particularly when faced with the ugly prospect of drinking warm beer from their fridge connected to their flattened auxiliary battery.

The new engine and alternator control technology we are experiencing however is nothing new. It is widely known that temperature compensating alternators have been used primarily in the Toyota range of vehicles fitted with D4D common rail diesels since early 2000’s. It is also present in 2010 Toyota Kluger Petrol, BF Falcon and the subsequent models to name a few.

Seems they also disagree with you.

Lower battery voltages increase battery life, again rubbish, your the first DCDC advocate I have seen indicate alternator voltages were to high and need to be reduced, most argue their to low and will never fully charge a battery, that is a first.

I suggest you also do some reading regarding batteries charge voltages, If the charging voltage is to low then raising the voltage will be beneficial to the battery not harm it. The standard output for the 200 series regulator from memory is 13.2V@25C, this is well below the generally accept minimum float charge voltage of 13.5V - 13.8V for non cyclic use.

You have said I have failed to mention the down side, I have yet to have one customer complain of adverse results, if you have any links to post by users with have issues or hard data proving a down side please post it up I would be interested to see it.

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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Saturday, Nov 29, 2014 at 01:49

Saturday, Nov 29, 2014 at 01:49
Wow, you really don't get it do you HKB!!!

It actually doesn't matter who is right or wrong, but just for your benefit - I have had my 200 since 2008, one of the first out. Toyota had their Japanese Engineers over at one point at the dealers and they said it was to improve battery life. But it came about from their prior use of Calcium batteries and the higher charge voltage. But then they used normal wet cells in the 200 and it was a mute point. But, others noticed NOx improvements and thus the pursuit for that reason, along with improvements to voltage control from the relatively crude temperature only compensation.

Now, this is yet another version of the "truth". I don't know its exact correctness, but what I was told by a Japanese Toyota engineer.

Point being, one thing morphed from another so who there is no definitive "right" answer. If Toyota were so concerned about emissions, why does the 200 revs increase when the a/c is off? (yes, I know "the" reason, as told to me).

But the real sad part here is that the OP asked about 200 batteries and here you are quoting from Redarc about emissions control. Simply no relevance to his question.

And interesting to hear you base your "proof" on customer complaints! Ever thought to check out battery chemistry, charge rates and effect of temperature? Apparently you know better than Toyota and can look after the Starter battery better than they can! A STARTER battery only uses ~0.7 a/hr to start a vehicle, doesn't take much to put that back in a battery.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, Nov 29, 2014 at 09:59

Saturday, Nov 29, 2014 at 09:59
Oh dear,

The .7a/hr is the actual current consumed by the starter motor, it is not the effective Ah drawn from the battery, if it was on your figures you would get over a 129 start attempts out of a 100Ah battery, I would like to see that!

I suggest you surf the net again and look up Peukert's law.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, Nov 29, 2014 at 12:14

Saturday, Nov 29, 2014 at 12:14
Yes I listen to my customers!

Obviously you have never manufactured or marketed a product, doesn't matter how good the theory or the product is if the customers not happy with it. I have sold many units to 200 series owners and get continual feedback from them, if they weren't happy I would not market the unit for that model.

An exploreoz member using a booster diode wrote above "I have 3 x 120 a/h of AGM batts in my van and they get charged just fine.....but I have one of the booster diodes..”

and

“Mine is an 09 model still running the original batts ( not split ),but running a different brand of aux should make no difference as far as charging goes...if the original batt can last 5 yrs then so should an aux.....BUT it's what you do with the aux battery is what makes the difference....and type of aux ( an AGM will be more prone to heat ).

Here is someone with actual experience yet you basically have told him he doesn't know what his talking about!

Yes battery voltages need to be reduced as the battery temperature rises, all modern batteries are calcium hybrid types, and can handle higher voltages. The the 200's run a very low charge voltage 13.2V@25C, voltage regulators are linear, for every x rise in temperature they reduce the voltage by x volts, if the charge voltage is low at 25C it is still going to be low at 60C or -10C for that matter.

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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Sunday, Nov 30, 2014 at 03:19

Sunday, Nov 30, 2014 at 03:19
You don't give up do you HKB?

You have now made assumptions about me personally and my professional career, which if you knew me, is so wrong! I never made a personal comment about you, just talked about diode fuses for alternators which are available from a multitude of sources.

A client should be given the correct solution to his problem, not something that makes him "happy". I have walked away from clients who wanted a particular solution, but I knew it was not a correct solution for their issue. Who is the "expert", the client or the seller who the client looks to for advice?

What that "happy" customer doesn't realise is that his starter battery that may have lasted 4-5+ years with the original set-up may only last 2-4+ years now. Yes, he is happy for now but doesn't realise the effect on starter battery life for some time.

And it may not happen either!!!! You seem to forget that I actually said diodes have their place! It all depends on what the vehicle is used for.

But now we are so far off-track from the OP's question that it has become a mockery. You seem to forget I offered the OP my personal experience of MY 200, not someone else's, and you jumped on board telling me how wrong I was.

And funny how you are now a google expert and start to quote some electrical theory, but again you missed the point! A Starter battery uses an extremely small amount of power for starting. 0.7, 1.5, whatever, the point being it is very small and has a different charging requirement from an AUX battery that often has ~50 a/hr used.

You seem to imply that a diode can solve two issues with a single solution, a Stater battery that needs a very small amount of recharge and an Aux that can have a large recharge requirement.

You have quoted Redarc and I think we actually have common ground here! We both seem to think they are a reputable Australian company and very experienced in electrical products. Funny how they make dc/dc chargers but not diode fuses. Hmm... is there anything in that????

But really, ALL modern batteries are calcium hybrid types? Oh dear....

I am over this thread and it just reinforces why I try and reframe from commenting on electrical threads, even when I believe I have some info that may benefit the OP.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Monday, Dec 01, 2014 at 10:25

Monday, Dec 01, 2014 at 10:25
You made a statement that Toyota lowered the charge voltage purely for the batteries benefit and that batteries like lower charge voltages:

Commonly expected minimum charge voltage for a car stater battery is around 14.4V@25C, were talking cyclic use not 24/7 float voltages, please provide links to the manufacturers that specify lower?

If can also provide a link to a starter battery that doesn't have calcium in its plates I would also like to see that?

Common accepted temperature compensation figure for lead acid battery is 3.9mv per degree Celsius.

For under bonnet temperature of 80C the compensation value would be 3.9*55 = 214mv approx, 14.4-.214 = 14.18V, so the ideal charge voltage would be 14.18V, the 200 series alternator puts out 13.2-13.5V@25C

To achieve the 13.5V charge rate the under bonnet temperature would need to be around 255C.

No only way the figures would make sense is if we were to use float charge voltages, ie around 13.5V@25C and even that is low, no manufacture recommends float charge voltages for cyclic use, if you know of one again please post the link as I would like to see it.

Redarc market a product that cost a 15th of one of their premium products, I wonder why they wouldn't be interested in doing that?

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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Monday, Dec 01, 2014 at 14:31

Monday, Dec 01, 2014 at 14:31
Oh dear, you let the truth out!!! You sell a product for 1/15th of the price and competitors don't because they sell a "premium" product that contains probably 1,000 times more components. Hmmm... wonder who has the higher margin.

This has become such an interesting thread? I answer the OP with my personal experience about my 200, and along comes a seller blatantly pushing his product. And now we find out we need to either buy his product OR heat the battery to 255 C to achieve what his product does.

Hmm... perhaps the theory actually supports a lower voltage to reduce the effect on the battery? Google experts are great at using electrical theory and coming up with a number, but simply not understanding what it means.

So thanks for finally explaining why I am happy to stick with Toyota Engineers and what they thought was the appropriate charge voltage for the Starter battery :)

Mine has lasted over 5 years and still going strong at the pathetic ~25 C, so can only imagine the life it would get if we were to achieve 255 C under the bonnet!!!! Perhaps you should market battery heaters, now there is a business idea for you :)

Cheers
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Monday, Dec 01, 2014 at 15:29

Monday, Dec 01, 2014 at 15:29
Redarc margins would be very much greater than mine, if they weren't they would not be selling them.

The compensation figures quoted have been used since lead acid batteries were first invented, and have changed little since them. If my figures are wrong please feel free to elaborate.

Yes, theory does suggest a lower charge voltage it always has and that is why alternators are temperature compensated. The charge voltages that Toyota are using though are well below that required for normal compensation reasons. Therefore there must be other factors at play than just maximising the battery life?

As far as I'm aware till very recently all the petrol engine versions use a standard alternator, ie charge around the 14.2V -14.4V@25C range, at least that is what the owners say. As the petrol engines generate more Kilowatts one could reasonably assume they would also generate similar or higher under bonnet temperatures yet Mr Toyota hasn't reduced the charge voltages for the petrol versions?

As Gronk posted, he has a 2009 model and his starter batteries are also still going strong.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Monday, Dec 01, 2014 at 15:30

Monday, Dec 01, 2014 at 15:30
PS, battery heaters are already available via Canada and other cold countries.

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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, Dec 02, 2014 at 03:54

Tuesday, Dec 02, 2014 at 03:54
You continue to amaze me HKB, not only do you know the retail margins of Redarc, you also now agree that electrical battery theory supports lower battery voltage and that's why Toyota use them. Hmm.. seems like perhaps Toyota were on to something here in the first place?

But then you suddenly know better than Toyota Engineers and reckon they have got the compensation level wrong, perhaps you should email Toyota and let them know?

Oh please HKB, Toyota have designed their charging system for the STARTER battery. Its the AUXILLARY battery that has charging issues with the standard setup!!!! The different duties of the battery require different charging regimes.

We can sit here all day long and banter back and forth, but the reality of the situation is that to optimise the charging of each battery duty, you need an optimised charging regime. A one size fits all solution is simply NOT the best solution. It may be cheap, but that may come back and bite you.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Tuesday, Dec 02, 2014 at 09:57

Tuesday, Dec 02, 2014 at 09:57
As usual you have misunderstood what I wrote.

Modern batteries require the same if not slightly higher charge voltages than their predecessors did. Just about every battery manufactured these days has calcium hybrid plates, which you sneered at, if this is not the case then as requested above please provide the proof. They all contain ultra pure lead, gas very little, hence why they can be sealed low maintenance in most cases, and can tolerate higher charge voltages happily.

They don't require lower charge voltages to maximise their life, as I wrote above, most manufactures specify a charge voltage of 14.4V-14.6V@25C for cyclic use yet the 200 charges at 13.2V - 13.5V@25, who's know best, Toyota or the battery manufacturer? Again if you disagree post up the data to support.

All, repeat all alternators are temperature compensated, not just Toyota's. All alternators reduce their output voltage as the temperature increases, repeat all alternators reduce their voltage as the temperature increases and this is beneficial for the battery and been know since lead acid batteries were first invented, even the old relay type regulators were temperature compensated.

However as I showed you above, the high compensation type alternators reduce their voltage to a much greater degree than is required for correct charging of the battery, Toyota and other manufactures have done this to enable them to meet emission requirements and improve fuel consumption figures, that is except in the case of the 200 series diesel according to you, but then the figures don't support your case.

Some of the other manufactures bit the bullet and went with ECU control, more expensive than Toyotas elchepo method but in some cases has the advantage that it can be turned off with the dealer warning that it may increase your fuel consumption.

Interestingly you did not comment on the fact that the Petrol engine version of the 200 series retains higher charge voltages, apparently the Toyota engineers weren't worried about premature battery failure in them?

Regarding Redarc chargers, first off they don't have thousands of components as you imply, obviously you no idea of electronics design or whats actually inside a modern switch mode power supply. 90% of the components are worth cents and a few worth dollars. You obviously have little knowledge of electronics or production costs yet you are qualified to comment on my mark ups, I can actually look at the Redarc unit and do a pretty fair estimate of what it costs them to put it together but I have no idea regarding their mark up to according to you.


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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Wednesday, Dec 03, 2014 at 01:57

Wednesday, Dec 03, 2014 at 01:57
Oh dear, you simply do not know when to give up!

If one cannot dazzle with brilliance, then baffle with bullsheite!

Bottom line, want a cheap system that improves some aspects of battery charging, get a diode. But want a proper system of battery charging for an AUX and STARTER battery, get a dc/dc. Simple isn't it!

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Wednesday, Dec 03, 2014 at 11:14

Wednesday, Dec 03, 2014 at 11:14
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Post Removed by Request Rule .

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Wednesday, Dec 03, 2014 at 19:45

Wednesday, Dec 03, 2014 at 19:45
And those pearls of wisdom from someone who has gone through two auxiliary batteries and now onto his third before he could work out there was a charging problem!

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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Dec 04, 2014 at 06:42

Thursday, Dec 04, 2014 at 06:42
Oh dear... lets play the man and not the ball, always a good tactic when behind the eightball!

HKB - we will simply not agree here. You are welcome to your opinions, same as I am to mine. Readers can make their own minds up.

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Thursday, Dec 04, 2014 at 09:49

Thursday, Dec 04, 2014 at 09:49
I tried to play the ball Captain, you have your opinion I have mine, I supply the data I believe supports my case and you just come up with a quick discount of anything I write and move on without supplying any hard data to support your view points apart from the mythical Toyota engineers that is.

Yes readers can make up there own mind though I would suggest you retract the bit about referring to LCOOL as over there you recommended a particular booster diode as good value!

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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Thursday, Dec 04, 2014 at 20:44

Thursday, Dec 04, 2014 at 20:44
OMG, do you read what you write? You make a statement about standard charge values and call that data? That is no more than a statement, until verified by a reputable source - of which you supply no links or source data. But I need to "supply hard data" when I make a comment??? Oh dear.

And do you actually read what I write?? I have always maintained the diode fuse has its place!!! Just that its not a be all and end all solution!

And the whole way thru, I have only ever referred to generic diode fuses, never you particular product!

But you may be happy to know that if someone was to buy a diode fuse, your product with its reverse polarity protection is arguably the best available :)

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