FACT OR FICTION

Submitted: Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:16
ThreadID: 110401 Views:3528 Replies:17 FollowUps:22
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Watching the TV the other night TV Law on some channel, and they were talking about little black boxes in vehicles, how they can plug into the computer in your vehicle with the right equipment and download your speed, where you've been, how far you travel each day and more. They say that this is done in the USA for accidents, and they are passing a law that all new vehicles will have one. They also said that GMH out here have been able to do this with the Holden's since the 90's if they had to. Has anyone heard of this? or is just Big Brother finding another way to keep tabs on us. I know they have it in trucks which monitor everything they do from a computer in there office, cornering, speed, gear changing etc.
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Reply By: pop2jocem - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:38

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 11:38
As you said the technology has existed for many a long year. In the past a physical connection had to be made to download all that info. Nowadays that can be done remotely.
Taken a bit further they could do away with police traffic patrol cars and speed cameras. Your position is known by GPS, your speed is being monitored by some computer, it determines that for that road you are exceeding the speed limit and automatically notifies you and transfers the fine straight from your account to "consolidated revenue".
Part of your licencing fee is held in an online account that Big Brother has access to.
Refuse to stop for random breath testing and licence, no problems, no high speed chase, a signal is sent to your car and the vehicle is speed limited and after a time the engine is shut off.

Scary huh?

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Member - outbackjack 1 - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:06

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:06
Pop, It sounds very scary. So you would think that in the future they should be able to track vehicles in the outback or anywhere if they are reported missing. And to go one step further, track criminals, etc. With this licencing fee held, does it happen in all states?

cheers
Outbackjack1
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:28

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:28
The technology already exists via EPIRB and various other methods. Locators and remote immobilisers can already be fitted to cars, boats, caravans, motorcycles and whatever else you need to keep track of.
I guess the next step may already be here just needing us the public to accept the fact that our every move can be monitored and maybe already is to some degree.

Cheers
Pop
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Reply By: AlbyNSW - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:16

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:16
They have been doing this with outboard motors as well.
A mate of mine had his dealer mate boat mechanic suggest to him to change his propeller size after it had been in for a service because they could see in the collected data that the motor was not reaching its optimum revs during use.

Likewise they can tell if the motor has been abused should you have a warranty claim
AnswerID: 542880

Follow Up By: Bigfish - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:27

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:27
Over a decade ago Alby I had the first Optimax outboard sold in the NT. After 100 hours the mechanic downloaded the graph from the motors computer and it showed exactly what speeds and the duration. Could be used to validate or deny a warranty claim. Showed I had ran motor in as prescribed and that most of the time was spent at around 6knots trolling for billfish. As you said...good for determining if the prop is correct, although you would know by the feel of the boat and the revs produced.
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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 14:00

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 14:00
A slightly different note, a colleague of mine hired a boat to a couple of guy's for a week or so to go to Shady camp, the boat and trailer came back trashed and they blamed the shady camp road for it.

Rick had been to shady camp the week before and new the road was not that bad, so he went to the GPS plotter and guess what, they had been to Kalumburu and back they hadn't deleted the marks on the GPS plotter, dumb buggers.
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Reply By: Mick O - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:30

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:30
Err guys, this is happening now and probably within the very vehicles you drive. Many of the ECU in modern vehiclescontain a data logger as standard which can be interrogated to provide a lot more info than that provided by just the vehicle sensors. Speed of the vehicle is one of these parameters although I don’t know over what period the data is kept before being overwritten.

Welcome to the modern world.

Cheers
''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Follow Up By: Member - outbackjack 1 - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:38

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:38
Mick O
Think all this technology is great, but I really don't won't everyone knowing exactly where I am, unless I want them to. I use HF when I'm outback, and that's all I use. I have all the other technology stuff and never use it. Remember the old days, standard 4wd with a winch, CB radio, stock standard split rims, and if you could afford it a HF radio with the wire aerial with the rope to throw up the tree to get reception. They were the good old days.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Munji - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 16:58

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 16:58
I don't believe for a moment that it is big brother watching us. More like our insurance companies finding more ways to prevent fraud claims which is becoming a huge problem in this country. Not sure what is causing it but I have my suspicions.
If we don't want it then everyone needs to make it clear to the insurance people.
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 19:59

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 19:59
Munji, it's obvious you've never heard of ECHELON?

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:58

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:58
OBJ1, we need to be realistic here. The info isn't being broadcast via satellite to let some all encompassing Big Brother know exactly where you are at any given time. Rather it is simply discreet set of data being logged to assist should there be some sort of mechanical (or ECU based) issue with your vehicle.

Cheers Mick
''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
Richard Maurice - 1903

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Follow Up By: Stu & "Bob" - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 22:58

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 22:58
OBJ1, I fondly remember those days, I still have a couple of those HF radios with the bit of wire for antenna, carry one as a backup for the normal HF.


.
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Reply By: Ron N - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:04

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:04
Big Brother arrived many years ago and it's only going to get worse.
Already, 1000's of cameras track you weekly. Cameras in service stations, cameras in restaurants, pubs, and most shops, cameras on the roads, on intersections, on bridges, and street cameras as well.
Google cameras catch you having a leak in the bush, or your wife sunbathing nude in your backyard.
Google employ cameras in aircraft as well as satellite and the obvious car cameras.
Drones with cameras can be bought by people on the dole with nothing better to do than spy on people.

In todays electronic world, the amount of spying that can be done on us is amazing. They have cameras so small you can miss them even when you're looking for them. The police and authorities regularly listen in to mobile phone conversations. Your emails are read by organisations you don't even know exist.
The ability to remotely control a lot of electronic items has been with us for at least 20 yrs.
The bottom line is, if you're doing nothing wrong, you haven't got a lot to fear.

The worrying part comes if someone in a position of power with the ability to track and check up on you, attempts to use that info to "get one over you".
It's becoming an increasing problem, where even police are being charged with unauthorised access to police computers, to find out information about people, where they're not entitled to access it.
AnswerID: 542884

Reply By: MAVERICK(WA) - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:12

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:12
15yrs ago the MTU engines on the vessels I was working on (in Aust) were monitored remotely via satellite comms by MTU Germany. They would also monitor and "adjust" where necessary - usually when back in port with the local MTU people but at times when we were at sea. Trucking coys have been doing this for longer esp Cummins, Detroit and CAT. If you have a GPS fitted it is able to be downloaded to enable the memory to be accessed so as position, route, speed, duration and time (and other stuff) can be examined. This can work to your favour if you consider you were not doing what the radar/laser claims you were - just need to have an authorised person do the download....and then go through the resultant court proceedings. Could also be used the other way and "prove" you doing other than what you claim. As for stolen tracking....some Euro and USA vehicles have that (and have had it for a number of years) and the vehicles can be disabled remotely. Then there is the ability of some smart phones to always be in touch with their "home" even when you have turned them off. Some "talk" to each other when in proximity - has been used by LEAs to establish whereabouts and contacts of people. Do we need to worry - maybe should have started that 20yrs ago......bit late now. rgds
Slow down and relax......

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Follow Up By: Member - outbackjack 1 - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:50

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:50
Maverick
Your wright GPS can be down loaded, HEMA asked if they could down loaded info off mine a while ago.
Thanks
Cheers
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Reply By: Honky - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:21

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:21
In y ford ranger handbook it does say information is captured and may be downloaded in the event of an accident.

Honky
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Reply By: Ron N - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:32

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:32
In the 1950's we had the Kienzle tachograph that used cards and a movable pointer.
They were a neat piece of engineering that effectively spied on you.

The Kienzle tachograph was so accurate, the card information could be used as evidence in some European courts, such as German courts, when heavy truck crashes involving serious injury or fatalities were being investigated.

The Kienzle tachograph is still around, today it's just gone electronic - but it still records all details of truck operation.
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Follow Up By: Member - outbackjack 1 - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:43

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:43
Ron
I do remember that stuff, OMG your making me feel really old.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 18:02

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 18:02
Talking about making us feel old...lol
When I did my apprenticeship with the government railways the older steam engines didn't need any fancy location devices. you could find them by the clouds of smoke and steam.
Them new fangled diesel jobbies had a shmick piece of hi tech gear called a Hasler Recorder. Cutting edge bit of kit that looked like a speedo but recorded speed and time on a paper roll something like what is used in EFTPOS machines.
That was way back in the pre historic 50's and 60's. (:-((
Wonder if my mobility scooter is talking to big bro?????

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 22:55

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 22:55
The Tachograph was the easiest thing in the world to tamper with, That's why the use satellite tracking in most Dangerous Goods trucks now.
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Reply By: Witi Repartee - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:44

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 13:44
The technology exists and is being used on at least one Energy Project.
I work for a major contractor on the $29.6 Billion Wheatstone Project in the Pilbara. Every vehicle on site has compulsory IVMS...which is real time is an In Vehicle Monitoring System which is also permanently stored in a vehicle log on site.
It works off satellite technology and Geofencing thru a South African Company.
You cannot speed, not stop at a stop sign, accelerate to quickly, brake suddenly, forget to wear your seat belt etc etc with out it being monitored and flagged. It also sets off an in vehicle alarm.
The scary thing is if you take a vehicle off site and drive 300km to Karratha etc it is still being monitored as all the road speed signs, stops etc have been entered in the Geofence parameters. So speed on the way to Karratha or in Karratha and you'll get a window seat!
There is talk that in future this type of system will be made mandatory by Insurance Companies or by State/Federal Govts.
It makes overtaking road trains etc on the open Highway almost impossible as you will exceed the system parameters and get pinged.
AnswerID: 542891

Reply By: Ron N - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 14:02

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 14:02
Don't tell anyone in Govt what a gold mine this arrangement would be, if extended to all cars!
There's a stop sign near my house that everyone drives straight through, all day long - with some people doing 20 or 30kmh through it.
They could balance the State Budget just on the income from that one stop sign alone, if they caught every single person disobeying it.

I believe many car hire companies now have a full monitoring system in all their cars.
However they haven't got to the stage of recording and fining you for all recorded driving infringements - yet.
It's currently used to identify people who have incurred red-light or speed camera fines in the hire car, and who do a bunk without paying for them.
It's only a matter of time before it's extended to full-time transgression monitoring.
AnswerID: 542895

Reply By: Bigfish - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 14:24

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 14:24
And the sad part is that the young generation of today will accept this as the norm....
AnswerID: 542896

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 17:51

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 17:51
Yep, exactly. How many, particularly of the "younger generation" feel a bit naked if they don't have their mobile with them at all times.
Not only will it be accepted, it will be expected.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:00

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:00
The younger generation aren't like you 'n me...they're used to it. Had you not been told you my not have known!

Perhaps they (the youngsters) accept the simple fact that should they drive a car like a mad person and crash, it would be standard procedure to interrogate the ECU data stack.

M.
''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Reply By: Batt's - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 14:53

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 14:53
I'll stick to the old GQ no computer no worries.
AnswerID: 542897

Follow Up By: Witi Repartee - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 16:17

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 16:17
Don't be so sure. IVMS does not require an ECU for its basic functions such as speed, distance, stop signs and road signs as it is based on GPS technology and I bet a GPS unit works in your GQ...it does in mine. Smaller things like seat belt monitors etc may not work.
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Follow Up By: Member - outbackjack 1 - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 20:28

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 20:28
Batt's you've got the wright truck no computers. If all this comes fruition the GQ Patrol or 75series Landcruiser is looking good.
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Follow Up By: SDG - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:32

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:32
Not hard to block a gps signal, or even phone signal for that matter. Just don't get caught doing it.
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Follow Up By: Batt's - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 23:54

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 23:54
We can fly under the radar to a certain point and they certainly can't do any downloads from their non existent on board computers. I like your camper setup outback with the pop up camper looks good I slowly setting up my ute for camping.
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Reply By: Kris and Kev - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 15:54

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 15:54
And to think a few years back everyone jumped up and down when the idea of an identity card was brought up. Nooooooooooooooooooo, we can’t have that, big brother blah blah blah...... Kevin
AnswerID: 542899

Follow Up By: Mick O - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:04

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:04
Amen! Loved that response from the Govt at tax time highlighting exactly where ones tax money as spent. I want my ABC money back!

;-)
''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
Richard Maurice - 1903

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Reply By: Member - Fab72 (Paradise SA) - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:36

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 21:36
G'day OB Jack,
You're sort of right.
I'll specifically talk Holden here because...um let's just say I know them VERY well.

Under normal circumstances, there is no data logging taking place....zero, zip, nothing.

In a "service" type environment where a laptop or diagnostic tool is attached (Tech 2), a snap shot can be taken of the vehicle's parameters including engine speed, rpm, air temp, brakes applied or not, barometric pressure, throttle position etc. But you'd know this because the scan tool connects through your ALDL connector located in the driver's foot well area.

Now...and what I think you're probably referring to is a data download from the SDM module (Airbag module) in the event of a crash. This takes highly specialized equipment to decode the data and it can only usually be done by the manufacturer of the module eg: Bosch. Now they don't release the info to anyone other than their own engineering departments to ensure their system functioned OK. They won't even release it to the Manufacturing plant's R&D department.

The SDM will record a snapshop of the data just as the SDM activated the deployment of any Secondary Restraint Systems (SRS). This data will include all or some of the following data. Vehicle speed, yaw, deceleration rate, seat occupancy, seatbelt on/off, deployment of any SRS (Airbags, seatbelt pretentioners etc), at activation of the hazard lights etc. It does not act or work like a "black box" or Truck Data Recorder.

Thems the facts...
Fab.
AnswerID: 542910

Reply By: Athol W1 - Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 22:48

Friday, Dec 12, 2014 at 22:48
Outbackjack
Most newish vehicles have some form of computer controls fitted, and most of these can be interrogated with suitable equipment, and this would apply to most vehicles manufactured in the past 15 to 20 years.

I have a 200TTD Toyota and also a Scangauge 11 fitted (approximately $200.00 cost on Ebay or similar), and at the end of each day's driving I can read off such things as max road speed, max engine RPM, max coolant temp, Average fuel consumption for the day or tank, fuel used today or tank, time ignition on etc. but it will NOT tell me as to when any of these events actually took place. I can also go back and get the same information for at least the previous day as well. I can also access the max road speed and engine speed that the vehicle has attained since the computer was last cleared of fault codes, in addition to all the fault codes that have occurred since they were last cleared. I can also use this unit as an accurate gauge measuring such things as coolant temp, transmission temp, current fuel consumption updated every 2 seconds, turbo boost, voltage just to name a few.

About 15 years back I was in the office of a large trucking organisation who were running Detroit Diesel powered trucks where I was shown how a computer in the office could control a truck in their yard. I saw the operator operate the computer and start the engine (heard it start), then increase and decrease the revs, then cause the engine to misfire by instructing the on board computer to shut down individual cylinders (heard that too). I was told that they can also adjust the power output of the engine to more suit the prevailing operating conditions where ever the truck is in Australia. An example was given that if the truck had just entered the Nullabor Plain and the weather indicated that he had a tail wind then the owner could just dial up the horse power that he thought the truck would require, and therefore save some fuel.

I am also aware of at least 1 PCM being removed from a heavy vehicle that was involved in a fatal incident and being sent to the truck manufacturers agent for analysis about 8 years back.

Yes Big Brother is watching, and has been watching for some time now.
AnswerID: 542913

Reply By: Member - Boobook - Saturday, Dec 13, 2014 at 00:04

Saturday, Dec 13, 2014 at 00:04
Forget where the car has been..........


Got a google phone and use locations services?

Did you know you signed up to Google knowing this?

Everywhere you have been for the last few years - minute by minute.


Apple has a similar website, I forget what it is though.

AnswerID: 542916

Reply By: Ol' Bunky - Saturday, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:25

Saturday, Dec 13, 2014 at 10:25
You blokes seem very paranoid.....
AnswerID: 542927

Follow Up By: Witi Repartee - Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 12:35

Sunday, Dec 14, 2014 at 12:35
I guess some may feel paranoia, however I am more interested in the possibilities it has to curb anti social driving behaviors such as speeding. Running red lights and stop signs etc etc. It also has it down side as it is inflexible concerning overtaking speeds and it will never be a cure for stupidity. However it does have the potential to vastly improve road rule adherence.
We have 4600 workers on a compact site here and it keeps driving on site extremely orderly...as a window seat awaits transgressors.
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Reply By: allein m - Saturday, Dec 13, 2014 at 13:50

Saturday, Dec 13, 2014 at 13:50
did any one see the News other night in WA if our car is one of the makes regularly stolen the Gov will give you a GPS tracker tiny little thing you put into your car and if your car is stolen the police can use there tracking gear to locate and find the car

not sure if you had to pa a fee
AnswerID: 542940

Follow Up By: allein m - Saturday, Dec 13, 2014 at 13:52

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