auxiliary oil pump

Submitted: Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 11:45
ThreadID: 11254 Views:2732 Replies:9 FollowUps:4
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Greetings, fellow fuel users,
I have a dream. whoops wrong quote!
I have an idea and I like to know if anyone has actually been able to carry this out.
Since we are always told that the wear in our engines occurs at start up I thought of using an electric auxiliary oil pump controlled by a pressure switch to pump up some oil into the bearings etc at ignition turn-on.
This of course would need some engineering as one would have to tap into the sump for the intake and tap into the oil gallery for the pump output.
A pressure switch would control the aux pump turning it off when a certain pressure was reached by the main pump. I guess one could make the system as complex as desired with control to turn the pump on again when the engine is at idle and main oil pressure is low.
One simple way to achieve this might be by using the dipstick tube and putting a aux pump intake in there and piping the aux pressure to the pressure switch/gauge connection (via a filter, of course).
Any got any ideas in this regard. Where could one get a suitable pump to do this. Only need a small pump I would guess.
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Reply By: Rosco - Bris. - Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 13:49

Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 13:49
Hombre

Wouldn't it be a much cheaper option in the long run to use top quality oil.
These are supposed to address this very issue.

Check out their web sites ... Castrol FMX Magnatec is one example, sure to be a swag of others.

Just a thought, Gringo ........;-)))

Cheers
AnswerID: 50390

Reply By: Voxson (Adelaide) - Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 14:03

Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 14:03
The fact that the engine starts cold is a wearing factor... You would need an aux oil pump and an engine warmer to get the tolerances right before starting....
AnswerID: 50392

Reply By: Roachie - Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 14:22

Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 14:22
Years ago I remeber talking to an old bloke who'd lived most of his life in Canada. Their cars got so cold that they had devices fitted to them so that when they parked at home overnight, they plugged into the mains power and some sort of warming device kept the oil warm to make it easier to start in the mornings. What you're suggesting sounds a bit similar.
I agree; starting your engine is the cruelest thing you can do to it.
Cheers,
Roachie
AnswerID: 50394

Follow Up By: Leroy - Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 14:42

Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 14:42
they also stopped the coolant freezing and splitting the engine block!

Leroy
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Reply By: sensei - Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 15:13

Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 15:13
I think most wear occurs at startup due to trapped exhaust gases absorbing moisture creating acid formations, this is why most wear occurs at startup. The cold temps also add to the tolerance not being within range but is not a HUGE consideration providing you do not rev your engine silly in the mornings.
AnswerID: 50400

Reply By: pedro the swift - Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 16:17

Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 16:17
Yeah , I have heard about engines heaters. I understand they are mainly to ease starting in cold weather. The russkis used to light fires under their planes engines during the WW2 winters to warm up the oil or dilute it with raw petrol in the crankcase.
But of course I'm not suggesting that!!
I dont know how effective the oils like Magnatec etc are.
I know from industrial experience that most big motors(electric) around 5MW or so( I'm talking about power stations et al) ALWAYS use aux oil pumps to bring bearing pressure to normal before starting the main drive.
I dont think start up wear is related to acid formation in the oils, that just sits and corrodes everything all the time if its left there.
Start up wear is definitely related to lack of oil pressure on startup and as previous post says you should not rev the engine while its cold on startup.
I actually had to reduce my auto choke setting to stop it revving too fast on startup. Now it starts well and sits at no more than 1000rpm on choked start.
Also as I stated when the engine is at temp and idling the oil pressure drops dramatically. I dont know if this also contributes to wear but I 'm sure the bearings would benefit from a higher pressure from an aux electric pump, particularly at lower speeds and at takeoff from lights etc.
AnswerID: 50406

Reply By: dingdong - Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 20:47

Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 20:47
Hi Pedro

I used to work on Belarus tractors onetime the 7010 model V12 motor, roller main bearings had an external 24 volt oil pump which built oil pressure up to operating pressure before fiiring up motor. what a collosal moter it was . Old Cats basicaly same but with donkey motor.
Cheers dingdong

Whiskey 746
AnswerID: 50444

Follow Up By: Billowaggi - Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 23:53

Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 23:53
Hi dingdong .
I still work on Belarus tractors [ made in the good old USSR] but mostly smaller ones . Have had some experience with 7010 and remember the engine oil pressure pump up switch, it felt and sounded like winding up the turbine on a jet, then you kicked in that beautifull V12 diesel The same engine with twin turbo's used in T52 tank. Awsome.
Regards Ken.
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FollowupID: 312268

Reply By: awill4x4 - Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 22:38

Monday, Mar 15, 2004 at 22:38
Pedro, there is already a commercial product available for pre-oiling/ low pressure oiling situation. It is called an accusump and is essentially a pressurised container which holds a volume of oil supplied by your engines own oil pump. The oil is released under pressure on startup or in a low oil pressure situation.
It has been developed for the motor racing industry and has been in use for quite a number of years now. The web address is http://www.accusump.com/
We do work on a Nations Cup Dodge Viper which was experiencing serious oil surge problems with the standard sump pickup, we modified the cast aluminium sump with kickout sides but this was only a stopgap solution. The accusump helped except the trigger pressure set by the owner was too low and the damage was done before the accusump dumped its pressurised oil. The car is now being configured for a full dry sump system with new 10 butterfly fuel injection (8 litre V10 engine:-) and is going on a severe diet to lose weight.
It was already pretty quick but now should give Brock's Monaro a bit more competition. It probably won't be on the track until round 2 or 3 of Nations Cup.
Regards Andrew.
AnswerID: 50458

Follow Up By: V8troopie - Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 at 01:25

Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 at 01:25
Just out of curiosity, how do they lubricate dry sump motors? Do all the bearings have oil seals or what??

Klaus
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FollowupID: 312274

Follow Up By: awill4x4 - Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 at 21:53

Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 at 21:53
Klaus, the term dry sump is actually a bit of a misnomer. A new oil pump assembly is fitted to the engine (usually externally and driven by the crankshaft) This replaces the normal oil pump. The dry sump pump is actually a multi-stage pump usually 3,4 or 5 stage. Most of the stages are scavenge pumps which suck the oil out of the sump or valley area (in a V8) This leaves a sump with no oil in it (hence "dry sump") the oil is pumped to an oil tank where it is de-aerated because the stages suck oil and air at the same time. The de-aerated oil oil is then sucked back to the dry sump pump, pressurised to correct pressure and sent on its merry way through the engine again.
With these systems you never get oil surge unless you run out of oil in the oil tank. (or turn the car upside down ;-)
Regards Andrew.
ps: another benefit of dry sumps is its ability the run the engine crankcase under vacuum which allows the engine to produce more horsepower, it's a win/win situation.
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FollowupID: 312388

Reply By: Member - Bradley- Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 at 10:39

Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 at 10:39
Yeah you can get accumulator systems with check valves to store oil and solenoid valve bypass to dump oil into the system under pressure prior to startup and refill slowly while running. Used in a lot of drag cars in usa, also was in one of the saab models a few years back (also insulated to hold heat in oil). The block heaters are used to keep engines warm in extreme temps the most common are the replacement welsh plug elements. engine heaters are also used on the fire trucks at melb airport, so they can get up and go flat out straight away.

Easy to fit an accumulator system to any car, just get a remote oil filter fitting, and plumb the accumulator and filter in a different area . not cheap though.. Just use good quality oil instead, and change it and the filter often.
AnswerID: 50514

Reply By: Eric Experience. - Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 at 21:53

Tuesday, Mar 16, 2004 at 21:53
Pedro.
A simple way of reducing wear on start up is to disable your injectors for a few seconds while you are cranking. You can automate this by using a relay connected to your oil pressure switch so no pressure no fuel. Eric.
AnswerID: 50601

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