Hail Damage During Delivery

Submitted: Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 16:34
ThreadID: 117262 Views:3107 Replies:13 FollowUps:17
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Hi

I am chasing a few opinions for a friends predicament.

They ordered a new caravan which was manufactured in Victoria. The truck delivering their van to the Brisbane dealership went through a hail storm and their van together with two others received hail damage.

They had traveled from North Queensland to take delivery and only found out about the damage when they arrived at the dealership. On inspecting the damage they decided not to take delivery and asked for their deposit back.

The dealer refused point blank and said he would arrange for it to be repaired which will be a major job including replacing sheeting on the front and roof of the van. This also creates problems with insurance as the van will not be considered "new".

They have since returned to NQ and I have advised them to get legal advice however I thought I would ask for members input in the meantime.

Regards

Ken H8
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Reply By: Bigfish - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 17:28

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 17:28
They should seek legal advice. Anything on here is irrelevant. No second guessing or what ifs. Personally I would want a brand new van. I have not purchased repaired van. Let the legal eagles sort it out.

cheers
AnswerID: 551710

Follow Up By: Ken H8 - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 17:39

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 17:39
Bigfiish Thanks for your reply.

Yes they will be getting legal advice ASAP. They arrived back today and naturally they were very stressed by the whole saga. This is their first van after retiring and I felt obliged to give them a hand.

Personally I would never be satisfied with a repaired "new" van. A new one or deposit back.

Thanks again.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 17:49

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 17:49
Second that, they are buying a new van. The damaged van is the dealers insurance companies problem. ACCC might be helpful too.
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 17:57

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 17:57
Ol' mate will get it repaired and sell it to next "interested" retiree, as a "new" 'van, and they'll be none the wiser.

Agree on deposit returned or new 'van. Wouldn't be much of a travelling life knowing you had a 2nd hand new 'van.

Bob

Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

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Follow Up By: Slow one - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 21:42

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 21:42
The big one is one the money. Seek legal advise and quickly.

Bob, if the van had been registered to the new owner it would be a secondhand van if the dealer had it fixed and then sold it.
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 22:29

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 22:29
Good point, Slow.

He may well have had everything ready to go, hoping to see the tail lights disappearing out the gate.........never to be seen again.

Bob

Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

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Follow Up By: Slow one - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 22:47

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 22:47
Bob,
I can see the dealer pushing him out the gate as he is the lucky 1000th customer, for this he will receive a bonus cold chook and hot carton for his long trip back home. LOL.

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FollowupID: 837235

Reply By: get outmore - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 18:33

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 18:33
if thier a memeber of the states AA could be worth a ring

way back in the day they used to have a legal department that MAY have been some use if for no other reason than pointing them in the right direction.
I got legal advice from the RAA on a couple of occasions with motoring matters and they were helpfull on both occasions

just got a feeling they may not offer such services anymore
AnswerID: 551713

Reply By: Iza B - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 20:36

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 20:36
The van presented without hail damage will still be a new van with a first owner. I don't agree with the proposed insurance problem. If they were told they could pick up the van by the dealer, knowing the van was damaged and not likely to be accepted, they would have a claim for travelling expenses.

Iza
AnswerID: 551715

Reply By: DES m - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 20:45

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 20:45
What brand is the van Des
AnswerID: 551716

Reply By: Member - mike g2 - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 22:53

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 22:53
Hi all, out of interest...not long ago, severe hailstorm in Perth damaged hundreds of cars, left many owners of cars denied repair or replacement as insurers apparently (hearsay) argued it was cosmetic damage and didn't effect the vehicle from performing the task for which it was manufactured. I still see hail damaged cars on road here in Perth now. agree legal advice sounds way to go.
MG.
AnswerID: 551720

Follow Up By: member - mazcan - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 23:31

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 23:31
hi mike g 2
thats actually not hearsay that's what happened
my sisters car wasn't very old with low km's the insurance company wrote it off because of serious panel dents from hail and then sold it back to my sister who is still driving it with only third party insurance as it cant be insured due to write off
so these loop holes allow things like this to happen i don't know what the ramifications will be if it's involved in a prang ?? not my cup of tea
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 07:36

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 07:36
Yes, vehicles can be written off (quite to easily at times), and sometimes offered for resale back to the owners, but very rarely !!
They usually go to auction, and quite often people pay way too much for them, just happy to have a late model vehicle, all be it with some minor cosmetic damage.

You can get them insured again, you just need to repair the damage, and get it inspected (at fair cost, Bris it is $500, it's a privatised inspection centre, and only one place !) and it can be taken off the repairable write off register.

Sometimes though, like the Bris Sept '14 storm, the damage can be extensive, glass and plastics smashed, saw quite a lot of this in the past 6 months, and it's still coming through !!

I have been doing PDR hail repairs on vehicles for the past few years off and on after the big storms, and let me say it's an eye opener how the system works.

Generally though, hail is fully covered by comprehensive insurance, and although it could be considered cosmetic to some (and may without ins will drive them around without a care), people with full comp ins CAN get them fixed, and no insurance coy on their right mind would try and reject a claim based on cosmetics.

With the van, and very thin Ali sheeting used, it is almost impossible to repair the dents, sheets must be replaced.
I have fixed small dents in some clients vans, it is very tough stuff ali, and the thin metal is different to heavier car body ali sheet, much easier work hardened trying to push or glue it up.
I certainly wouldn't accept one as described by the OP, who pays full price for repaired goods damaged before taking delivery ?
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:45

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 11:45
A mate and his wife are driving a top-of-the-wozza Jaguar, which belonged to Twiggys Forrests wife, and which was damaged by hail.
Mate was doing some contract work for Twiggy at the time. Twiggys missus reckoned she didn't want to be seen in a daggy Jag, so she sold it to my mate at a very low figure, and went and got herself a new Jag!
Mate and his missus are pretty happy at getting a near-new Jag to tour around in, even though it's a hail-damaged daggy Jag!
It's still a Jag, and it still drives O.K.!

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 837247

Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 19:37

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 19:37
Absolutely, that was / is the situ in a lot of places now.
Many didn't have comp ins, and just drive them around dented.

PDR (paintless dent removal) can get most light to medium hail out without paint, and you wouldn't know.
Heavier damage like from some suburbs in the Sept '14 Bris storm required some paint after we did the 'push to paint' on them.

Some bought auctions (repairable write offs), not researched enough, paid too much . . . in fact I reckon most insurance companies didn't have too bad a losses overall considering to intensity of that storm.
These vehicles HAVE to be fixed and taken off the register before they can be registered anywhere in Aust.
Anything from $2500 to $5000 to repair, repairable write off inspection fee $500, many might as well have gone and bought a non damaged retail vehicle.

Others bought from dealers in their "Hail Sales", they only saved $2000 from normal pricing, it might cost $2500 for light mild repair, and with paint up to around $4500, so clearly too much being paid in many cases.

Most of these didn't care, they just wanted a farily low km vehicle to drive around, and might not ever fix the dents.
Technically they would not be able to full comp insure though, if they disclose that as asked in the application for insurance.
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FollowupID: 837272

Reply By: member - mazcan - Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 23:49

Saturday, Mar 28, 2015 at 23:49
hi ken 8
back in 1979 my new 26ft jayco caravan was on rail together with several other vans to dealer in perth when they were badly stone damaged by our indigenous friends east of kalgoorlie
i had paid a deposit and i agreed to have new windows and complete front end and one side alum sheets replaced it took a couple of weeks but in the end made no difference to the van or quality of it in the long run to me it was still as good as a new van and was received a van in new condition
the trouble is these days everyone wants to take everyone to court and line the pockets of solicitors
i'm sure there is a sensible outcome to be agreed to if the owner wants it and the fight will prolong the eventual results once you drag solicitors into the equation
cheers
AnswerID: 551722

Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 00:10

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 00:10
Lots of people sell cars and vans to others that have been damaged and properly repaired. There is no problem getting them insured, the insurance value is based on purchase price of the vehicle (unless the price is inflated above the Redboook value.)

If your friends ordered van is repaired to as new condition it will still be a new undamaged van as he has not taken delivery yet. He will be able to get it insured with an agreed value of the purchase price.

Why are you putting the question to unqualified punters? The people to ask for advice is the intended insurance company. They will advise if there is any hitch in insuring it. They are the arbiters of whether they will accept the risk or not. If your mate makes a full disclosure to them and they accept the policy then things will be OK. The only time things are not OK with insurance companies is if full disclosures are not made (ie don't try to hide things.)
PeterD
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AnswerID: 551724

Reply By: Yunderup Fox n Wifey - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 01:18

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 01:18
Hi all,
I purchased a "hail damaged"Coromal from a Mandurah dealer after the big hail storm in Perth a few years ago. I viewed the van with the damage. Agreed to pay the asking price provided it was all made good as new and had it delivered about 10 days later. To me it was still a new van. No problem with insurance. No leaks. I kept it for 4 years then sold it and now the proud owner of a new Elite van. If the dealer hadn't told them about the damage and had it all repaired prior to them taking delivery I wonder what would have happened. To me its up to them if they want it repaired or money back. Wouldn't hold it against them either way. At the end of the day you have to be happy and comfortable with your purchase other wise it will just make retirement a misery.
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AnswerID: 551725

Reply By: Ken H8 - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 09:03

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 09:03
Ken H8

Thank you for your comments.

One of their main concerns is the lack of communication with the dealership in not returning their phone calls etc. The rightly asked to be kept informed which has turned out to be not the case.

Regarding insurance. Their insurance company advised them that any policy with them would mean if the new van was written off in the first two years it would replace it with a new van. Apparently that is not the case with a repaired van.

There are other factors that would indicate the dealership has been slack. They failed to inspect the vans when they were being off loaded, apparently the driver shot through without telling them about the hail storm.

One would have thought the consignment would have to be signed for and at least a visual inspection carried out rather than finding out an hour or so before the new owners arrived to pick it up.

They will be getting legal advice tomorrow.

Thanks again.

Ken H8



AnswerID: 551729

Reply By: Shaker - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 09:15

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 09:15
The old adage " ignorance is bliss" doesn't apply in this case, but many brand new cars & I assume caravans, are damaged prior to sale & repaired without the knowledge of the purchaser!

AnswerID: 551730

Reply By: Fab72 - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:05

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:05
Ken,
Tell your friends to see the positive side of this. Had the van been damaged prior to loading at the manufacturer's yard, there's every chance the repair job may have been done there and your friends would have been none of the wiser until it was too late.

Me personally, I'd thank them for their honesty, decline to take delivery of the van and insist on a new one. Taking back the deposit will achieve very little. They'll still have to wait for a new van to be built where ever they take their hard earned to and hope that the next manufacturer is as honest and transparent as this one.

At the end of the day it's hail damage, NOT poor workmanship. As the old saying goes poo happens. Maybe just hit them up for some upgrades to compensate your friends for the additional time taken. Once all is said and done, they may just end up with a better higher spec'd van for the same money......play it to their advantage.

Fab.
AnswerID: 551733

Follow Up By: Fab72 - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:09

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:09
....another thing to consider. There's an increasing trend for people to pick up their new vans direct from the manufacturer and then road trip it home.

Consider if this had of happened 5kms out from the manufacturer's factory. I think the current situation is far more easier to digest.

Fab.
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Reply By: Ron N - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 12:20

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 12:20
The whole problem centres around who actually organised and paid for the transport of the 'van from Victoria to Brisbane.
If the purchaser arranged it, and paid the carrier, then the contract is between the purchaser and the carrier.
If the purchaser paid the manufacturer for delivery to Brisbane, and the manufacturer organised the carrier, then the delivery contract is between the manufacturer and the carrier.

Keep in mind at all times, that trucking crowds are nearly all classed as "common carriers" and as such, take no responsibility for damage during transit.
If you organise for an item to be transported, you need to arrange transit insurance.

The caravan manufacturer should have either had transit insurance, or they should carry the cost of damage in transit themselves, if they failed to organise transit insurance.

I've no doubt many manufacturers choose not to carry transit insurance and run on good luck, hoping the truckie won't damage their item. In many cases, that's a false hope.

The problem with hail damage repairs, is that they are NOT superficial repairs.
Repair of hail damaged panels generally involves a serious dismantling of the van structure - and the replacement of major panels after the 'van has been built is generally a difficult task - because so often, panels are installed first, and then the 'van is built around them.

This exercise is a good reminder to pay deposits and even full purchase amounts with credit cards.
When the company refuses to co-operate with reasonable requests to refund a deposit, when the purchaser exercises his right not to accept the purchased item because it has been damaged and then repaired - or offered to be repaired - then the purchaser can institute a chargeback, and get his money returned that way.

Purchasers have to remember that at all times, once the item has been purchased, the point where actual ownership handover takes place, is crucial.

Despite my long experience in dealings with businesses (over more than 50 yrs), I've been caught recently with an auction house.
I bought a big lathe from an online auction held in S.A., and spent considerable time in inspecting, bidding on, winning, and organising transport for the lathe.

The auction house then offered to deliver the lathe to my transport company yard in Adelaide, because of a delay caused by the auction house, that messed up my plans to pick it up from the auction house premises.

The "professional" craneage crowd hired by the auction house (and I use this "professional" word in very loose terms), then managed to drop the lathe in the process of lifting it onto a truck, thereby totally destroying the lathe in the process.

I was absolutely furious with the entire cock-up, and demanded some compensation for all my time and effort wasted - but the auction house refused point blank to accept any responsibility for any losses.
They merely refunded my purchase money and essentially told me to rack off.

No doubt, if I wanted to spend some serious money on lawyers, I could probably get a win over some "duty of care" angle - but we all know what happens when lawyers get involved.
They're the people who referee the fight, and get to keep the purse.

Cheers, Ron.
AnswerID: 551739

Follow Up By: Ken H8 - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 13:43

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 13:43
Ron thank you for your comprehensive post. You wrote:-

"This exercise is a good reminder to pay deposits and even full purchase amounts with credit cards.

When the company refuses to co-operate with reasonable requests to refund a deposit, when the purchaser exercises his right not to accept the purchased item because it has been damaged and then repaired - or offered to be repaired - then the purchaser can institute a chargeback, and get his money returned that way."

I have never heard of "chargeback". Does this apply to all credit cards and how do you instigate it.

Ken

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Follow Up By: TomH - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 13:52

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 13:52
It means as said if the product is not what its supposed to be or fails to arrive (if posted to you) and seller wont play ball you have 60 days from the arrival of the credit card statement to initiate a Chargeback.

To do that, apply to CC company who will advise on the procedure

Takes a while as they investigate it but if genuine usually woirks
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FollowupID: 837258

Follow Up By: Ken H8 - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 14:28

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 14:28
My understanding is they paid the deposit last year well outside the 60 day limit.
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FollowupID: 837262

Follow Up By: TomH - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 16:43

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 16:43
My answer was as to how it works not the subject in the thread.

Leave it too long and you unfortunately cant do it.


As to what they should do Opinions are just that

A legal definition is what they need after explaining all the facts to the lawyer.
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FollowupID: 837265

Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 20:01

Sunday, Mar 29, 2015 at 20:01
Ken, if you read the the little booklet of T's and C's that comes with all CC's (and we ALL do that, don't we? [;-) ), the card issuer will outline under what conditions you can initiate a chargeback and how to go about it.

Essentially, if you think you've been defrauded, have not received the item you paid for, or it is "not substantially as described", you have the right to initiate a chargeback.

This usually involves going into the bank that issued your card and requesting a chargeback. The bank employee will get you to fill out the necessary forms, which need to have all the precise details of the charges and items involved, and the reason/s for requesting a chargeback.

The amount is then withheld from the merchants account while the matter is investigated by the CC company. This can take a while.
If the matter is decided in your favour, you get your payment returned. If it's decided the merchant has done nothing wrong, you don't get your money back.
It appears that a sizeable number of chargebacks are successful, if the situation is described precisely and truthfully.

I once entered into an online contract to a U.S.-based provider of business information, provided in a short course via an emailed digital booklet.
What I was not informed, was that I had also entered into a monthly repetitive contract charge when I had purchased the digital booklet.
The entire company and it's CEO were prize scammers, operating under a cloak of business respectability.

I initiated a chargeback, once I realised the payments (about $72 a month) were being taken out of my account regularly.
The CC investigated, and my monthly payments were returned to me, and no further charges were placed on my account by that company.

Eventually, the CEO and his company were investigated by U.S. authorities, and he ended up being charged with serious fraud. His company was liquidated, and he went into the big house for a long holiday.

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 837273

Reply By: Echucan Bob - Monday, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17

Monday, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:17
Ken

your friends should look on the bright side. Why do they put dimples on golf balls? A hail damaged van will have less wind resistance, and not cut or slice as badly as a smooth one.
AnswerID: 551791

Follow Up By: Ken H8 - Monday, Mar 30, 2015 at 13:42

Monday, Mar 30, 2015 at 13:42
Now that is funny Bob. One happens to an avid golfer.
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