Common Rail Diesels - Good or Bad?

I am considering buying a late model 2nd hand turbo CRD 4x4. Fuel efficiency sounds really attractive (currently driving a 100 series petrol @ 20L/100 km). There is a fair bit of chatter about these modern motors having trouble with injectors. Fuel contamination appears to be the main cause of problems. Numbers like $4000 to replace injectors and lasting less than 100 000 km. Filters and water alarms as preventative measures. Service intervals of 5000 km recommended by 'experts' rather than 10 000 km recommended by manufacturers.
I would like to hear from fans and foes of these CRD motors ......
Thanks heaps.
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Reply By: Bigfish - Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 20:40

Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 20:40
After many years of owning Landcruisers I switched to a Pajero. 3.2 ltr. CRD. First thing I did is a secondary fuel filter and block off the EGR valve. The filter will protect the high pressure fuel system from crap and water. The blanked off EGR will stop the inlet manifold blocking up and give me much cleaner engine oil. Total cost about $350 , do it yourself. Great peace of mind. . The car averages about 10k/to the liter. Sometimes 8 k to liter and sometimes 12 k to liter. Depends on driving conditions and speed. Towing expect at least 7 k per liter. There are many of these vehicles out there with well in excess of 200,000 ks and not requiring any attention. I do know that the Prado and the V8 motors had injector issues and you had to sell your first born to pay for repairs!!
AnswerID: 553038

Follow Up By: Mudripper - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:58

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:58
Without hijacking the thread, when blocking off the EGR did you have any problems such as the Check Engine Light come on? With my 3.0iTD Rodeo (non CRD) I can't seem to 'fool' the system. Made up my own 1.2mm thick stainless blanking plates, put them in, CEL comes on. Drilled various sized holes in the plates, CEL still comes on. Disconnected vacuum hose between EVRV and EGR valve (equivalent of blocking EGR 100%), CEL comes on. The light only comes on after travelling at exactly 100km/h for a while. It's fine at any speed below that. I want to keep the EGR blocked after not being happy with what I saw in the inlet manifold. PCV system has been fitted with a catch can as well.

Cheers,

Tim.
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FollowupID: 838804

Follow Up By: Bigfish - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 20:02

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 20:02
Mudripper.

Drill a 1/4 inch hole in the blanking plate. This allows a little of the mixture through and will eliminate the engine light. You could contact SPV industries. He makes a cheap electronic gizmo that fools the ecu into thinking that the egr is never needed, so wont open it up. Works a treat.

email........ tony@spvindustries.com
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FollowupID: 838818

Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 22:50

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 22:50
You did not read the followup - he said "Drilled various sized holes in the plates, CEL still comes on."
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Follow Up By: Bigfish - Friday, May 01, 2015 at 20:37

Friday, May 01, 2015 at 20:37
Sorry mudskipper. Best idea is to get the SPV modification.
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Follow Up By: Keir & Marg - Saturday, May 02, 2015 at 17:41

Saturday, May 02, 2015 at 17:41
Our NS Pajero has just hit 205,000km and gone to the diesel service for 4 new injectors and a clean of the choked inlet manifold. It has the EGR blanked off except for a 8mm hole otherwise we kept throwing a fault code. Cost will be about $4k. Ouch. Am going to talk to them about a solid blank off plate and instead a 8mm hole in the throttle butterfly which should stop the fault code occuring. No evidence of contaminated fuel though. Will also investigate the after-market filter option.
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Reply By: Angryz - Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 20:53

Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 20:53
I have the same mods as Bigfish on my GU Pootrol & have not had any problems. 165000km old getting 14.5 LT per 100k city driving. I also drive a stock Dmax dual cab auto for work which I regularly get 9.2 LT per 100km & occaisionally dips into the 8's. Good thing in my eyes!
AnswerID: 553039

Reply By: AlbyNSW - Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 21:15

Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 21:15
The 5k service interval ( oil change) is a diesel specific recommendation not just CRD
Add a secondary filter with a water alarm and you are all good
A Toyota dealer mechanic told me he is servicing a number of client D4D CRD motors with 800k on them and one with 1 million k on it
Give them clean fuel and oil and they are fine

AnswerID: 553040

Follow Up By: Bigfish - Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 22:10

Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 22:10
Many diesels are getting their oil changes at 10.000klms now. I know my Pajero the changes are every 15,000. Better machining , better fuel and smarter motors are enabling them to go further between oil changes. Naturally heavy duty driving will see a more frequent change.

I notice that Subaru require 2 oil changes a year. In Australia. In America its every year. Apparently our environment is harsher...and here I was just thinking Subaru Australia are just ripping us off.........lol

Nothing wrong with CRD if clean fuel is delivered to the pump and motor...
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 23:14

Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 23:14
Agree, I don't think any manufacturer say 5k some even say 20k but a lot of the privateers still recommend every 5 k for longevity

None of the manufacters will do that as it has negative marketing connotations
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Follow Up By: Bigfish - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 07:18

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 07:18
Alby I changed my oils religiously every 6 months in my landcruisers. Sometimes the oil had only done 1500klm. The oil was clean but had no klms on it. However the new motors definitely do not require as frequent oil changes. My Pajero has nearly 6000klms from new on it. As I have the EGR mod and extra fuel filter the difference in oil colour is amazing. The oil is only slightly darker than from when it was brand new. If it haf of been in my landcruiser it would have been pitch black. I was sceptical about changes at 15000klm. However after being on the Pajero forum and speaking to several mates who are diesel mechanics I have changed my mind(after decades of twice yearly oil changes) and will opt for the vehicle manufacturers advice. If I do the hard yards out bush or a lot of stop start city work I will probably bring the changes down to 10000 klms. I reckon 10000 klm is about my yearly average anyway. A lot of privateers will say 5000klm for longevity. They get more work, they must be ignorant of the fact that many diesels are now running semi or full synthetic oils that are superior to ordinary oils plus many are "old skool" in their thinking and have set ways (like I was until doing the research and getting the facts).

cheers
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 07:53

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 07:53
I have a CRD Landcruiser and do about 25k a year
Drop the oil every 5 k and it is definitely noticeable when you do, motor is much smoother and quieter and revs easier
If I can feel it, it must be a positive thing for the motor

I don't disagree with you but I also think it is part of the marketing exercise for the manufacturers to make their vehicles look more maintenance free
The flip side I guess is that the oil manufacturers are not going to dispel the current train of thought as they want to sell more oil

At the end of the day the vehicle only had to get through warranty period, they don't care about the longevity of a 10 year old vehicle
If you turn your vehicles over it doesn't matter
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 07:57

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 07:57
In my opinion, changing the oil at 5000kms is a waste of oil on new crd motors. I've wracked up half a million kilometres on 2 euro crd's over the last 8 years and frankly don't know what all the fuss is about. They are the best engines I've had in forty odd years of owning cars. Great fuel economy and power. Mine have a 15k recommended interval but I can hear a difference around 10-12k so service them then.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:09

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:09
I agree with Michael - my CRD specifies 12,000km and all is fine. Modern engines and modern synthetic oils make this a reality.

If I had an old dirty toyota diesel I would be changing every 5,000km but not a modern diesel.

Old habits die hard - the times are a changing.
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Reply By: Trevor&Verna - Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 22:59

Tuesday, Apr 28, 2015 at 22:59
My Hilux got very rattly at start up at the 100K mark, so I had the injectors replaced and put in the extra fuel filter. Cost was $4K Ahhhh!
Haven't done the ERG yet but its on the list after reading posts in this forum.
No one tells you about these issues with the supposedly unbreakable ute prior to purchase.
Trevor&Verna, Kal WA

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AnswerID: 553043

Reply By: Member - Mark (Tamworth NSW) - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 07:47

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 07:47
We bought our first diesel (new) in 2007 and sold it last year to my father @ 300 000km after the previous vehicle being a petrol Pajero. Serviced at dealer every 15000km, never had any problems other than normal wear and tear.
Replaced it with another Pajero last year. No fuel system/ engine modifications, I just try to run the tank down to less than 5litres before refilling.
Love those low 9 to high 8 litres per 100km (measured on longer trips @ 100km/hr, relatively lightly loaded and relatively flat running), after 13's with the petrol version. Too hard for us to measure efficiency around town as a long trip to us around town is 5km.
I'm a fan and with respect to Robin Miller's vastly superior mechanical knowledge to mine, why any one who does > 20000km pa would buy a petrol now a days is beyond me.



AnswerID: 553045

Follow Up By: Member - Alan H (QLD) - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 09:21

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 09:21
I try not to run my fuel down. I have 200 series cruiser with 140k on clock and change oil at 10k. Unless on a long transit out west I try to keep my fuel topped up so if I do get contaminated fuel, the tank is diluted by the fuel already in it.

If the cruiser is at home for any period I always try to leave it with a full tank to avoid condensation buildup in the tank.

I carry fuel filters with me and they gradually accumulate gunk until the light comes on. Then I change the filter immediately.

Very happy with the engine so far

Alan
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Follow Up By: Member - Alan H (QLD) - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 09:26

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 09:26
I should have added that my first diesel was a 110 Landrover and this was followed by 60 series and then 80 series landcruisers all of which had 350k on them before disposal and bought the 200 series in 2008 and just love it.

CRDs are not a problem. Just have to be careful with fuel quality and fuel filters.

Alan
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Follow Up By: Member - Mark (Tamworth NSW) - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 13:04

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 13:04
Understand you good logic Alan and agree it is best when really bush. It's not often that I'm refuelling at a small low volume outlet.

My logic is by emptying the tank it I'm not going to get a build up of material / cap/(maybe) water over time, which I fear would slowly develop if only 3/4 emptying tank, and when you do empty it - you get a surge of crap to your filter/ injectors.
I have an Irish ancestral surname, not sure if my logic is Irish though!

Mark
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 14:55

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 14:55
I think you have more chance in getting water in your system when filling up at the servo rather than condensation in the tank. These days any vehicle with a CRD is going to have a tank system that is not directly open to the air and will have various filters and cannisters that stop fumes escaping and also stop moisture when air is being sucked in.

Garry
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 15:39

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 15:39
I don't think it will make any difference.

Any contaminations in the fuel that get through to your injectors is going to be a problem.
If you get a bad batch of fuel the problem is there waiting whether you run your tank low each time or not.
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Reply By: geo22 - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 09:58

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 09:58
Go out & buy the current issue (No. 232) of the 4WD Action magazine. This has a multi page article on common problems with CRD engines, lists some specific problems with some models & also shows how to avoid any potential problems. A lot is really common sense but useful nevertheless if you're a novice with vehicle maintenance.
Hope this helps.
AnswerID: 553047

Reply By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:53

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:53
Modern CRDs come with water warning sytems and mostly it's a matter of stopping when you see the alert and draining the bowl under the filter. Opinion is divided on the value of putting in a pre-filter. They take out particles down to say 30 micron while main filters run at about 5 or less.

Country and outback servos are often suspected of having water, diesel bug and other undesirables in their tanks. For particulate contamination an option is to run your fill through a Mr Funnel.

AFAIK there are a couple of generally suspect engines out there. The Nissan 3l TD (aka the hand grenade) and one of the Toyotas - but in respect of this it seems mainly to have been an incorrect service regime recommended by Toyota Aus.

Replacing injectors can be done with reco units to keep the costs down.

One motoring writer argues that diesel doesn't pay for itself unless you do over 30k per year.
AnswerID: 553052

Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 14:57

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 14:57
The grenade was not a CRD.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 21:43

Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 21:43
But the later CRD's still had a few problems, so grenade was still applicable..
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Follow Up By: Bigfish - Friday, May 01, 2015 at 20:41

Friday, May 01, 2015 at 20:41
My auxillary has a 5 micron as well. For $200 fit yourself its a bloody good insurance policy. I have it as secondary and one big advantage is you can see the crap in the bowl as it is glass. The main filter has the water alarm(factory). Main filter gets changed at service intervals and secondary when needed (probably every 2nd time main filter changed.)
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Reply By: Sigmund - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 15:05

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 15:05
Thanks
.....
AnswerID: 553058

Reply By: Steve - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 18:56

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 18:56
the problem with Toyota's d4d engine (Prado and Hilux - not sure about others) has been the copper seals on the injectors, which become compromised (broken) although this affects vehicles with as little as 50,000 on the clock yet some get into the high 100s without issue. This has mainly affected models up to and around '08, after which, Toyota decided to replace the old seals. There has also been problems with injectors of the same vintage but again, these have been improved upon. Like the Patrol, the problem isn't universal with the model but occurs enough to make owners a bit jumpy. As a precaution, I'm changing my injectors for the new ones and having the inlet/manifold cleaned out properly - it will cost me something north of $3000 because I have connections in the trade and want to keep my Prado. I did look around at a trade-in and did some test drives but decided I liked my car enough to keep for a few years yet, having equipped it and it suits me all-round. These issues are quite widespread, particularly with Jap cars but not a problem with the much maligned (in Oz) Land Rover or the Fords.
AnswerID: 553065

Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 19:16

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 19:16
The Toyota injectors are a lot expensive than the Landrover and Ford version so even if they have to be changed not such an issue - glow plugs are more of a worry though.
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Follow Up By: Steve - Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 21:13

Wednesday, Apr 29, 2015 at 21:13
A lot more or less expensive?

dealerships selling injectors at $660 each and you'll be around $5500 out of pocket after installation, including inlet manifold clean and new fuel pipes, gasket kits etc - almost wishing I'd stuck with the old Land Rover. Got lucky this time with a mate of a mate.

:)

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Follow Up By: axle - Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 07:31

Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 07:31
Steve, just to make you feel good!, my old deefer is still running sweet on the original injectors at 300,000ks,...LOL, ..might be like the frog crossing the road everyday, ONE DAY!!!!.


Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Jackolux - Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 07:34

Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 07:34
I replaced the injectors in a D4D Hilux , first time at 100k , second time 200k .
The injectors didn't come from Toyota ,cost 1st time $3400
2nd time $2200 . Drive in drive out .
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Follow Up By: Member - Kitbags - Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 18:38

Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 18:38
Well Trek'n_Teach there you have it all.
The good advice, the bad that will damage your motor and the self styled "experts". This topic brings it all out. There are forums devoted to "the fixes" that go on and on. Roll the dice and decide what you want to believe. In the meantime buy one, read and use the owners manual and the manufacturers recommendations then just drive it. Kitbags
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Follow Up By: Jackolux - Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 22:39

Thursday, Apr 30, 2015 at 22:39
T-n-T , what make and model of vehicles are you looking at .
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Reply By: swampfox - Friday, May 01, 2015 at 09:31

Friday, May 01, 2015 at 09:31
hi
Toyota hilux current shape ,just out of warranty
Injectors are noisey as hell when cold
Toyota have had around 4-5 different injectors in these 3.0TD
Noise concerns me but is not a deal breaker
What your biggest enemy is wear and tare on the injector tip
The current is diamond tipped . This type of tip prevents bad spray patterns causing poor economy and power etc
Did I mention that we had 3 clutches under warranty
The clutch does not lock up all the time, although barely noticeable
Occures after u sit on a 100 kph for around 1 hr then accelerate . It feels weird .The fuel economy gets better after u get a good clutch
ECONOMY 10.0 lts per hundred 100% city
The Toyota varies 20kms per tank

Ford Ranger pk or pj
70,000kms injectors destroyed . As many have complained about after 30,000kms it is impossible to acheive the economy u would expect .
There are reports of the Pj 1st generation has problems with the computer [ECU] causing starting and economy problems
By comparison the economy on the ranger varies 70-90 km per tank
ECONOMY
12ltrs /100 100% city
14-17 ltrs per 100 towing
11 ltrs per 100 high way
This was from a single cab alloy tray 2wd hi rise 450 kg lighter than a 4x4 dual cab


EGR valve
Some later European run twin egr valves ,suppose to reduce the build up of carbon .
I say block the egr and re calibrate ecu

Swampfox
AnswerID: 553137

Follow Up By: Jackolux - Friday, May 01, 2015 at 21:18

Friday, May 01, 2015 at 21:18
Noisey injectors when cold is a sure sign they need replacing , don't just ignore it , it could end up costing a lot more than just a injector job .

At least go to a Diesel Service and get them to check the values .
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FollowupID: 838939

Follow Up By: TerraFirma - Friday, May 01, 2015 at 23:16

Friday, May 01, 2015 at 23:16
Not sure that's true Jacko.? Cold start noise has been around a long time even with many new vehicles, I'm up to 300,000 KM's in a Hliux with one set replaced.Going better than ever, on a real cold morning it rattles for a minute or 2 but all good. It is worth saying prices have dropped dramatically for CR Injectors and the quality has improved. Be fussy about your diesel fuel, for me personally Caltex Vortex Premium Diesel is where it's at until BP get their Ultimate Diesel in all states, there is no better.
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FollowupID: 838941

Follow Up By: Jackolux - Saturday, May 02, 2015 at 07:14

Saturday, May 02, 2015 at 07:14
Yes Terra , you are correct I probably shouldn't of said a sure sign , he did say as noisey as Hell , dunno how noisey Hell is . When my first linjectors buggered up , I would of said that was as noisey as Hell
Still worth getting the injector values checked .
I did a lot of research about injector problems when I had my Hilux ,
I talked to quite a few Fuel Injection Services and got a lot of different stories as to why there was a problem .
I have just bought a new Dmax and have only used Caltex Vortex so far but when traveling the OutBack a lot of the time you just have to take what you can get .
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Follow Up By: swampfox - Saturday, May 02, 2015 at 12:52

Saturday, May 02, 2015 at 12:52
hi
Sounds like typical diesel knock when cold .I must say although the Ranger injectors were completely stuffed they were never noisy .

Just remembered if u have ever decreasing economy as i stated before. My economy went down to 325 km per tank .The dealer did not think it was an issue .[Ya kidding arnt u !!!!! ] THE SCAN TOOL SAYS IT OK WE CANNOT UNDESTAND IT. The scan tool cannot look at the quality of the spray pattern . I demanded they be removed and sent out for testing . Injectors were stuffed . After all that one of the new injectors lasted 2weeks then failed .
Around $500 each 2013
Dealers are turning into the I phone generation !!! aggh bloody useless
swampfox
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Reply By: Slow one - Saturday, May 02, 2015 at 19:25

Saturday, May 02, 2015 at 19:25
Ol mate, it is the same as when petrols went from leaded to unleaded there is a learning curve.

There is no way around it and all will be sorted in a couple of years. Remember all heavy engines are now common rail and have been for a while. This has caused the same problems for them as it has for light vehicles. No engine will go back to mechanical injection so, until the common rail is really sorted with electronics and injector/pump advancement there will be issues. History wise this will not take long to sort.

I have a common rail and I must admit somehow the erg got blanked off. I also have extra water protection against fuel contamination.

Gotta add, you can pick up contaminated fuel anywhere, it is not confined to country or remote areas.
AnswerID: 553197

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