opinion

Jim,
Up to a point I can see your logic but consider this scenario
I have the option to renovate/ rebuild a FJ45 Toyota ute or spend a bit more and buy the modern 4.5l V8 diesel.
Should I put up with an engine that, while reliable, was an absolute slug on the road in a vehicle with cart springs front and rear and apart from an ex-army jeep was the most uncomfortable thing on the road or should I buy a new Toyota ute, bags of power, reasonable comfort and able to tow a large caravan with ease.

With my age and back injuries, there's no way I could just keep the old FJ going.

In any case, I wouldn't buy a Toyota anyway......................I'm a rusted on LandRover fanatic, my choice would be Defender or DiscoD4.

Disco.

G'day Jim,
You are right on the money there.

Been done in the Machine tool industry for years as after sales service is big money. Special codes for adjustments & special licensed software for diagnostic checks.

Seems like the car industry has cottoned on now too. The only problem is that when you are 100's or 1000's of kms from help it costs a fortune to get help.
Ok for machines that are located in cities & large regional centres but not much good looking to get a specialized service guy out in the Simpson!

Cheers
Stu

Two good questions Jim B8 & I am unsure of the answer to either.
I have a good friend now retired as am I. He was the service manager of a large Holden dealership & I recall him saying many years ago after a state conference with Holden that they had been advised that their role in service, maintenance & warranty would be increasing dramatically as a result of more complex 'systems' on the vehicles, not just for emission control but a whole gambit of 'aids' to the driver for safety & ease of operation. This role of the 'dealer' would be cost prohibitive to the non 'dealer' & new vehicle owners would be coerced (read compelled) to have all work carried out by the 'dealer'. This has been proven so very correct .
We have an 80 series turbo multi valve auto Land Cruiser with 375,000km on it & still in very good condition. We would love to upgrade to a new 4x4 but complex
electronics that I have no way of fixing when in the middle of the CSR or the like make me shy away.
It will be interesting to follow this thread & see the replies.
Cheers
Batsy

Member - Jim B8
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It is my opinion that vehicle manufacturers have hidden behind emission regulation, and over complicated modern vehicles to the point where the only choice the consumer(with a problem in their vehicle) has is to take it to the dealer. O and that dealer is our dealer. Keep it all "in house"- dollars and cents.


"So very true, and when they realised they were losing services to free thinking consumers, enter the fixed price servicing."




We have so many very qualified mechanics, who now cant fix problems because the company who manufactured the item wont let the mechanic get access to the codes, whatever, because they are not a dealer...And the dealer is nowhere close to where you break down.


"That code issue was recently resolved. If you buy an non common product like Landrover, and strange Korean/Thai/Euro brands then maybe expect resistance and distance to servicing needs, factor that into their pricing and your operational needs."



Met a nice bloke in Yetman, he has an old troopie with a 350 Chev in it, and 660,000 klms on it. It barks, and it bites. And the motor has 5 wires on it...And no computers And everyone north and south of the border CAN fix it when it needs it.


" Plenty of petrol engines run more than that with regular servioce and long interval running"



OK she uses some fuel. Accepted. Not my cup of tea, but 660,000 klms on it?
But you wouldn't have to consider, for too long, to work out a commercial interest in environment legislation, compliance, complexity, propriety, etc. Smart lawyers, the top end of town. And who is paying? You and me. But only to save the environment, honestly.


"Thats a politics dealio...saving the planet initiatives in a fossil fueled vehicle...and we are operators of such for say 50 years in a billion years environment."



Well, we afford service day? Can we afford breakdown day? Can we afford transport of dead truck day? No

Show me one...Just one new vehicle that does not fit the mould... Engine, or whole of vehicle computers, and no one who can fix it..except the dealer. And O yes, it is a bit costly as the parts had to come from overseas. Diesel motors are a simple thing, the world has been using them for years.'


"modern diesels with electronic everything are efficient, clean, and longevity is better with some engine and placebo pollution management propaganda removed. Are you a plumber, electrician, tiler, IT technician, cabinet maker and builder at your house?"



Lets not get conned.
Rebuild, or renew, that is the question? And a question well worth asking
Is an older vehicle well restored or modified a better vehicle than buying a new one better? Or have we been all conned?


"You have been conned if you believe and subscribe to global warming in your short time here, and paying for dealer servicing, and not self educating as to the positives and negatives of modern engine systems.

HI Jim, agree that modern vehicles seem to have 'maker only' fixing manufactured into the car. emission controls are a legislated requirement now. more modern engines are requiring engine management chips ( black box) to monitor and control all the various parts of driving process mainly for fuel economy. My previous Fiat Jayco M/Home had such a control. problem is when engine light comes on, you don't know what fault is without diagnostic laptop! ( nearest one is capital city)
Almost all manufactured goods would have a life span that allows the maker to stay in business giving you the next model. If things lasted too long only the initial run would sell, then bankruptcy?.
After market care/servicing is indeed a big business, I frequently get servicing reminders, longer I wait, the more they offer- 20% off etc...to service with us.

its old news that to build a car with parts will cost you a lot more than the original car.

My Volvo repair man friend often threw out the 'black box' rather than spend time on fault finding the old way. mechanical vs electronic. take your pick.

PS: almost all modern passenger aircraft run on computer controls- pilot programmes in weight ( pax + baggage), computer picks ideal parameters, then later.. heading, altitude, cruising fuel usage, etc.... auto pilot is put on within a few mins of takeoff.
MG

Yes, these vehicles are complex to reduce emissions, and improve fuel consumption. Low fuel consumption sells cars.

I've always serviced my own Landcruisers ...and will continue to do so. I service my 2012 200 series purchased from new - it's never been back to the dealer (I don't trust the apprentices) ....there is no need to do so. Its the simplest Landcruiser ever to service - simply oil changes, filter changes, brake fluid change, and inspections. No need to hook up the magic computer. No timing belts, no valve clearances to adjust, no wheel bearings to grease. I have a scangauge so can read and delete codes should they arise, but they haven't arisen!
And when you analyse the problems people have, the majority are caused by aftermarket fitments. These vehicles are very reliable from the factory.
So yeah, I'll continue to DIY....I'll use the genuine parts because they are the best....I'll use the best oils.....and if I were to have a problem....heck take it to the dealer and have them fix it. If it was my fault, then take it on the chin; if it was a warranty issue then claim it.

I wondered why i still have my 2003 PATROL 12 years on, had since new and the 4.2 is a slug but with 400,000ks and still going strong. I still haven't set a date to change the original clutch! If and when i decide to change to a new vehicle, it will be a new LC diesel but is hard to stick my hand into my pocket for >$70k when i have a reliable vehicle. I guess it will have to happen eventually. Michael

hi
DO NOT think for a minute that dealers are the experts .
Very very code diagnostic tool dependant .
This makes for a very very poor mechanic
Diagnostic codes are a symptom/ indication of an issue in most situations.
Vehicles do run perfectly with water in the tank cracked spark plugs faulty throttle position sensors . Seen this first hand . Customer typically complains of some distantly related issue .
Talking about reprogramed vehicle computers ECU. Changed many of these due to go fast mods being misguided .

First check air fuel spark
check fuel pressure and flow
compression wet and dry
leakdown test
change plugs check high tension leads
check coil resistance
failed plugs can cause a failed injector
check for all mechanical issues blown head gasket etc
Check all earths and power supplies
Check for correct voltages at inputs and out puts of ECU
Diagnostics tools do not typically check during start up

After u have done all that some times u just use your best guided thoughts
eg idle motor only fails at traffic lights yet idles for hours in the workshop
faulty ecu with no other indications
Some times u get water in cylinders overnight also

Dealers donot retain there experienced people and dealers are not allowed to think out side the box at all . Eg overheating north of Brisbane. Aircons that donot work in the north of aust..

Dealers are generally zombie robots [a slave to the dealer principle and the almighty dollar ]

swampfox

Jim

What we have now is what the motoring public want. You can see examples of that as far back as the 1920s.

T Ford sales peaked at 2 million a year in around 1922. The nearest competitor was Chevrolet at 500,000. In less that ten years Chev was outselling Ford. The reason was Henry stubbornly hung onto the T for far too long. It was well and truly obsolete by the mid 1920s but he said it was very reliable and did the job so there was no need to improve it. In the meantime many of his competitors had moved on to more powerful and efficient OHV engines, distributor and coil ignition systems, brakes at the wheels instead of the T’s one single brake at the transmission and so on.

It got so bad for Henry that he had to close his factories for a full six months in 1927 and quickly design and build the Model A to replace it. He lost a lot of sales and dealers during that period.

I got my first taste of performance from that era when I drove a customer’s 1928 Essex at work one day a few weeks after getting my licence. I thought wow a big six cylinder so I put my foot down to the floor and virtually nothing happened. I immediately understood why people found the need to start hot rodding way back in those days. Even the Chevrolet brothers were making speed equipment for T models and no doubt many other cars.

Today you could frighten the living daylights out of yourself if you held your foot flat to the floor for more than five seconds on any new car that had an engine with the same cubic capacity of that old Essex.

I reckon you would be lucky today to find 1% of motorists who would want to return to the way cars were even as little as 20 years ago.

As for fixing them in the bush: I have seen conventional diesel fuel pumps fail. The only way to repair one in the bush would be to replace it. The same applies to an old ignition coil. You would not cut one of those open to fix it on the side of the Canning, you simply replace it.

The same applies to any current car. A lot of electrical parts are repaired by replacement but how many of them fail?

I left the motor industry while working for a Toyota dealer in the late 1980s. We had EFI, computers, diagnostic codes etc back then but I can’t remember ever having any problems with them.

I also had a very good apprentice working under me at that time. He still works for the company today. When I bought my computerised diesel Hilux a few years ago, I asked him about its electronics and if there had been any problems with any part of it. He said only with the electronic accelerator pedals and only after they had been submerged in water.

That was 102,000 ks ago and I have not had to replace anything. I wish I could say the same thing about all the other non electronic cars that I have owned over the years.

I have also never taken the car to any dealer of workshop during that period.. I gave it a wheel alignment myself when I bought it with a digital angle finder that I bought at Bunnings and the tyre wear is still even. I keep an eye on electrical connections , engine earths etc but nothing has gone wrong.

I have driven it over some seriously remote desert tracks and was not worried about it. I did not carry spare computers, pumps etc. Your biggest threat out there is failure of parts like the chassis, axle housings etc due to taking the car up to its maximum carrying capacity or beyond when you should reduce loads and speeds in rough conditions.

Car technology is never going to go back to the way it used to be and thank heavens for that. If you are concerned about reliability in remote areas then buy a workshop manual and study it. You will find they are easier to work on than you think.

Happy to keep driving my 1993 GQ with 437,000 km on the clock I'm not a fan of electronics and fancy emissions control that can potentially cause damage to a motor and shorten it's life. My wife has had 2 new cars in the past 7 yrs and both vehicles different brands have spent a lot of time at the dealer with mechanical and electrical problems glad it was all warranty work because it I probably could have bought another GQ for the amount of money spent on them. On the fuel economy side of things the modern motor has improved but the vehicles are getting heavier so that will counteract the full benefit of trying to improve econ for example an old 4x4 single cab hilux weighed 1270 kg the modern equivalent 1680 kg that's a third more yes their safer but most of the extras they fit don't get used there just there to boost sales and are novelty items we can do without.

Just a thought for those in favour of all the electronic wizardry in vehicles. They may be interested in a conversation I had with a defence aircraft mechanic a few years back.
I asked him why he was repairing a very complex mechanical fuel pump for one of our fighter jets & not using an electronic fuel system.
It seems that many weapons can cause havoc with electrical systems so even though the pilot could lose all electronic navigation aids the plane can still be kept in the air as the mechanical system will remain functional.

So I wonder how many of our modern cars would just stop dead in their tracks in this situation. Mind you in a war situation I guess there would be more pressing issues.
Food for thought.

Cheers
Stu

The logical thought progression for this issue is that there is a market for expedition style vehicles and a smart manufacturer should meet the demand. I'm not sure it will happen though, evidence being that manufacturers are making their models more urban and leaving the off road accessories to the likes of ARB. Wouldn't it be nice to buy a vehicle designed to have larger tyres, more ground clearance, winching capability, uhf and greater wading depth as standard? Much like the starship Enterprise, this vehicle would also need to have a full diagnostic readout available on the onboard sat nav display. After all, when the Enterprise needs repairs in another galaxy, it can't call the road service equivalent. I look forward optimistically to this mythical vehicle. :-) Retreating back to old clunkers from the past isn't the answer, they are all dying out anyway.

It is not manufacturers who enforce emission standards. They are imposed upon them and the manufacturers have to comply.

Im sure they wouldnt be putting expensive DPF's and other thing into vehicles just because they can.

They have to, whether they or us like it or not.

I have a VW with all the fruit and so far it hasnt given any grief. Would I go back to an old Holden or Ford No.

In saying that the best run I got out of any of my 40+ cars was a 1971 Hillman Avenger 1500.

Thrashed it to death with a boot full of tools, towed trailer loads of concrete till it died.
Chucked a s/h motor in it and away it went again.

Eventually sold it to a wrecker who used it for the shop hack as he said it went to well to wreck LOL

I have a 1991 4l carby petrol 80 series, its never let me down and is still going strong. Its very cheap for parts. I do my own servicing.
It may not be as quick on the highway as modern 4wd's, but I'm touring and in no rush. It has everything that a modern 4wd has, power windows, power steering, cold air, heater, stereo etc except for the expensive price tag, parts and problems. I even believe my driver seat is more comfortable than modern vehicles.

I'm not one for keeping up with the Joneses, I'm into value for practicality.

As far as I'm concerned I'm way out in front compared to those poor buggers with $30k plus computerised vehicles.

Perhaps part of the appeal of electronic vehicles is that it provides monitoring and alerting prior to have a major problem, versus the old of potentially failing without any warning.

There are plenty of older vehicles out there that can be purchased for next to nothing for those inclined to go the rebuild route and no computerised controls. I did this sometime ago, cost a fortune and as an exercise it wasn't the success I would have hoped for.

I now have a LC 79 Series dual cab that to date as not caused any issues, but being mechanical I suspect that day could come at anytime.

Going back to non-computerised vehicles these days puts you behind the wheel of a vehicle that is probably a minimum of 25 years old.

There have been many advances in vehicle technology unrelated to the engine, but you'll only enjoy these with a new vehicle.

Then there s the ongoing cost of sourcing parts for older vehicles, and not to mention insurance...older and less expensive doesn't mean cheaper rates, quite to the contrary.

My point, I guess you can't just look at one aspect of a vehicle in isolation...

Cheer,s Baz - The Landy

Don't get me wrong I think computerized engine control systems are great but the car companies need to stop being so protective about trying to keep all the service diagnostics in house.
Does not help me with lousy on board diagnostic systems out in the remote areas.
Lets face it modern engines hold their tune better, start easier in extreme climatic conditions & get some great fuel economy & horsepower figures from less cubic capacity than in the past.
However I am not impressed with having to pay huge towing fees because a stupid sensor disables the vehicle.

The increased complexity is here to stay whether we like it or not. But I believe what will happen is hand held diagnostic tools will become more powerful. I noticed that even super cheap are selling then Actron Auto Scanner-U Scan, Smartphone, OBDii for $135. It erases codes and allows user to diagnose problems when the check engine light comes on using a bluetooth phone. This is just the beginning.

I believe these self diagnostic tools will get better and better and soon we can maybe even connect with dealers technicians via bluetooth (for a fee of course) to resolve breakdowns in the bush after we have self diagnosed the problem. My SIL recently had a problem with his V8 Audi and he has a OBDii scanning tool that told him the code error and through the internet he found the cause of the error. He solved the problem himself using available technology. I prefer to embrace modern technology and benefit from the modern vehicles with increased safety, power and efficiency. Don't fear technology and complexity. Embrace it. Learn about it. Get the best auto scanner/diagnostic tool you can afford and learn to use it. Knowledge is power.

671, I have no fear of new technology, but I have absolute no need for it in a 4wd, My 1991 80 series is still perfectly good and I'll even say it outperforms the majority of new 4wds out on the track.

Great discussion, thanks all. Nice to see a number of different views put forward without anyone resorting to name calling rubbish.

Thanks,

Matt.