A Flaw in the 70 Series Toyota’s (And a solution)

Submitted: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:07
ThreadID: 118983 Views:11706 Replies:15 FollowUps:52
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Owners of the newer 70 Series Toyota’s will be familiar that the wheel track between the front and rear is substantially different, in fact 95mm is the measurement.

The narrow track on the rear of the vehicle will cause it to sway on dirt and sand tracks, deep dry rutted roads and even on sealed roads. This was something I have experienced with “The Landy” given the configuration I have set up.

The problem can also be acute for Troop Carriers which have a higher centre of gravity, especially if configured with a loaded roof rack.

Anecdotal evidence suggests there have been a number of rollovers that have been attributed to this issue.

The offset had its genesis in the need to accommodate the larger TD V8 engine. Perhaps Toyota still has a warehouse full of the old rear axles assemblies and associated equipment, or the cost of changing the tooling is too expensive at this time. Either way perhaps they will fix the issue at some time in the future.

There are alternatives to correcting this problem and one of the most common has been to use wheel spacers if a read of the various internet forums is any guidance. Clearly, this can be an extremely dangerous practice, in addition to being illegal, as there are many instances of wheel studs sheering with the potential for a serious accident following. Offset rims has also been a popular method of correction.

It is worth noting either practice is likely to void an insurance claim and could see the drivers of vehicles modified in this way facing punitive charges if involved in a serious accident.

One company that has engineered a solution to this problem is Kinetic engineering based in Geelong, Victoria. The company has engineered the MDT Tru Tracker, a complete rear track correction system for the V8 70 Series Toyota’s. The solution relocates the entire wheel hub assembly to the correct position.

I recently had the modification completed on “The Landy” and whilst I am yet to test it on our outback roads, that will happen shortly, the drive back along the Hume Highway was far more relaxed as the vehicle tracked flawlessly and without the constant correction in the steering to which I had become accustomed.

The modification is approved for vehicles with a GVM up to 3,780kg, which did initially cause some issues for me due to the vehicle GVM sitting at 3,900kg with the Lovell’s GVM upgrade fitted. The solution was to de-rate the GVM to 3,780kg.

I will update once I have performed some off road testing in the Western Deserts throughout July and August this year, but for those looking for a solution this is a good place to start.

The cost comes in around $3,000 approximately, which is a bitter pill to swallow to correct a problem created by Toyota that should not exist on a vehicle of this calibre.

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Reply By: Gronk - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:17

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:17
When you call it a flaw, it sounds like you mean it's a "fault" with the vehicle ??

I haven't heard one person with a 70 series complain about the inability of the 4wd to do anything that an older model did !

Sure, spacers are illegal.......but if say Toyota installed them as a factory addition, funnily enough they would be legal.....Porsche and others have been doing it for years..

Not aware that running different offset wheels was illegal ??? Not if they were in the range set out in the RTA rules..
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:43

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:43
No, I meant flaw, but I’m happy to accept it is a fault in the vehicle…

My own experience and investigations revealed a number of people complaining about this specific problem and in fact is the reason a company went to the trouble of finding an engineered solution – there is a demand for it…

In fact, there was a 79 Series in the workshop at Geelong with sheered wheel studs having a Tru Tracker modification done whilst mine was down there…

Offset wheels may, or may not be illegal, but I guess the point of thread this is to highlight there is a solution if people are inclined.

Not that I’m a betting man, but if I was my money would be on Toyota not putting spacers on the vehicle such that the wheel is sitting on the studs…

Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:05

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:05
I didn't say Toyota was even remotely thinking of spacers.....but if they or another manufacturer ever did spacers, they would be engineered to be as reliable as the setup they replaced..

If there is a demand for the mod, then that's all that matters...
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 19:48

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 19:48
Understand, and "engineered" is the key word...

cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Reply By: TomH - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:34

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:34
There is nothing to stop you using different offset wheels. It is the preferred method.

There is however a limit to how much you can widen the track and I think it differs in each State. The other limitation is that your tyres may not protrude past the body line but addon wheel arches fix that.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=52051&IsPgd=0

There is a mistake in the article where it says in SA speedos must be within +/- 10% above 40kph.

It should be that the speedo can be plus 10% +/- 4 at 100kph and cannot read under actual speed as per the ADR rules
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:49

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:49
Offset rims - yes, they may or may not be legal...
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 15:26

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 15:26
Legalities aside, a large rim offset will load up your wheel bearings which can leads to a failure of a different kind
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Reply By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:35

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:35
Baz,

I wonder if the inability to use the full 3900 kg GVM upgrade has anything to do with the fact that while this mod is far better than wheel spacers and using different rim offsets, the spring location is still as per original.
As far as I could see the original mounting for the rear spring packs is still where it was. This of course is dictated by the width of the chassis where the spring hangers are located. By moving the rear wheels further out I would think the "leverage", for want of a better engineering term, acting on the differential housing is now increased by some amount.
As far as why Toyota continues to use the older rear wheel track, it was my understanding that the V8 diesel, and it's wider front wheel track was only available in Australia and maybe a very few other countries in it's single turbo format and use in the upgraded 70 series.
From what I have read it was their intention that the whole 70 series in this format, was to be discontinued after around 2017, so the present incarnation was only ever a stop gap measure. Something about it being too difficult to incorporate the future requirement of a 5 (?) star safety rating into the present body style.
I thought there was also some dramas involved with making the V8 diesel compliant with future Euro emission standards.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:48

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 13:48
Hi Pop

No, the GVM issue is that Tru Tracker’s approval is up to the axle limitations of the vehicle which is 3,780kg. Lovell’s GVM upgrade is to 3,900kg, and from my own investigations no-one is sure how it was ever approved, in fact it appears to have been approved in error – good luck getting bureaucrats to acknowledge that.

The offsett problem appears to exist on the vehicle worldwide as Kinetic engineering is exporting the solution to other countries.

Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 14:39

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 14:39
Baz,

Not about to argue the point about the world wide distribution of the particular V8 diesel model 70 but the bit of checking I have done shows Australian only.

Do you know who Kinetic are exporting to??

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 15:10

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 15:10
The Middle-East is my understanding...but the principal of the company would be the man to ask...

Cheers Baz
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 15:46

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 15:46
Emirates, Dubai and the Saudi's all have the current 70 series although they have a mixture of petrol and diesel options that we dont. Left hand drive also. I've had the pleasure of seeing the vehicles they were doing up for the motor shows over there, six wheel drive, LHD versions of their 'Southern Scorpion'.

The TruTracker is being exported throughout the middle east. Their 6x6 models come with the welded diff solution. I had the welded diff option fitted early this year to replace the Kinetic prototype they made for me in 2011.

Cheers Mick
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 16:08

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 16:08
Many middle eastern countries have models that we don't. Petrol variants of the 70 included. Maybe the wider front track is a feature of the V6 petrol powered versions.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:04

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:04
No Pop, Toyota had to widen he front stance to lever the V8 donk into the new VDJ70's. Given their "LEAN" methodology that Toyota have become famous for, they decided that the difference was within tolerances and saved themselves a couple of hundred million dollars in re-tooling costs to cater for the changes in the rear diff and axles.

Given that manufacture of the diffs and axles is probably outsourced, you wouldn't have thought it would not have been that much of an issue when taken as a single small part of the total cost of re-fitment of the production lines back in 07.

Still a formidable outback vehicle though.

Cheers Mick
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Reply By: Shaker - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 14:37

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 14:37
It's unforgivable of Toyota to produce a 4x4 with different track front & rear, it makes a mockery of all the effort that people go to to ensure that there campers have the same wheel track!

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Follow Up By: braggy - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 16:59

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 16:59
I think you may find that some Patrols have a different track front to rear as well. not as much as the Toyota VDJ7*.

Maybe a silly question, but doesn't the back wheels only follow the front when you are going straight, and a trailer the same.

cheers Ken
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:00

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:00
Braggy, you'd hope they would....mind you I had a rear wheel that decided it didn't want to follow the front ;-)

The problems become apparent on outback roads in particular. Drive around on bitumen all day and you'll never have an issue but once your on the dirt stability and rear tracking can be an issue. Naturally this can also be influenced by the manner in which the vehicle is driven but having seen the way in which the vehicles with, standard splits and tyres skip over rough roads or in soft conditions, is often unnerving. The rear tracking is severely affected.

Another issue, and this was one that I found particularly frustrating, is that in ruts, or in off track work, the rear offset is like pushing a third tyre through the surface, increasing drag and decreasing power and fuel economy. Rear tracking is also an issue in the rough as the difference means a much greater chance of picking up a stick in the tyre.

Horses for courses I suppose but as a VDJ79 driver, the difference in stability and handling has been worth the investment.

Cheers Mick
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Follow Up By: Member - Howard (ACT) - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 19:29

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 19:29
Mick,
with over 180000km on my 2009 79 ute the difference in track has not given me any great issues. early on I was a bit put off when the rear end moved abit on the sides of steep hillls at the farm but sort of got used to it.
I purchased the ute to avoid towing so cannot comment on any ill effects under that scenario
dispite lots of sand (desert not beach) and cross country travel I have never really considered the effect on the fuel usage of the staggered wheel tracking. just happy there is plenty of power available under soft conditions- as long as I come out at the other end I tend to be satisfied.
have you noticed any measurable difference in fuel usage since going wider at the rear.
regards
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 21:31

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 21:31
In off track work Howard yes I have. Roughly around a 0.75 km per litre depending on the conditions. I used to work my fuel averages on 3-4kpl depending on load/towing and type of country and now find 4-5kpl to be more accurate.

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Reply By: MEMBER - Darian, SA - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 15:07

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 15:07
My readings suggest that Toyota had to drop the 1HD-FTE and move to the V8 (or something like it) to satisfy new emission regulations. So they must have retooled the front end for the wider motor, but left the rear as is because they figured they could get away with that....and they have :-).
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 16:14

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 16:14
When you have a look at the recently released specs for the 2015 MY Hilux to be on dealer floors later this year, and with a 3.5t towing capacity and payload of some 1250 kg where does this leave the 70 series? 6 speed manual and auto transmissions and 5 star safety rating also.

Cheers
Pop
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Reply By: Member - Rosco from way back - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 17:30

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 17:30
Sounds like a good solution Baz. I must admit, I have on occasion noticed the mongrel tracking a bit from time to time. However there's no bloody way I'll be forking out 3 gorillas for a fix.
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Reply By: Gone Bush (WA) - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:34

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:34
In my previous 79 series trayback I experienced a manouvre, that could have become a full blown jack-knife, on a gravel road in SW QLD. I was towing our previous van which was much lighter than our current one and the tail certainly wagged the dog.

Scary.

I put spacers on each rear wheel but it really bugged me that I had to take them off to check the original wheel nuts, so they got sold.

The phenomenon exists and Landy's fix. expensive as it is, seems to be the only one to cover all contingencies.

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Reply By: Member - DOZER - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:40

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 18:40
The earlier 70 series with 6 studs could be modified by putting 80 series rear hubs and brakes on the rear of the 70....which moved the wheels out 60mm each side.
b4 you bag me out, walk a mile in my shoes, then your a mile away and have my shoes :)

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Follow Up By: Member - Rosco from way back - Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 21:43

Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 21:43
I think I heard somewhere you can do the same with the current model using a 105 rear axle assembly.
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Reply By: 906 - Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 21:57

Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 21:57
I have had my V8 Troup Carrier for 3 years and drove it around Australia last year towing a camper trailer, through everything from deep sand , mud , rocks , you name it , there was no problem with the track or the handling whatsoever, even with a roof rack . I have wider wheels with 305/70/R16 tyres, you drive it to its capabilities , the back follows the front , , wouldn't spend $70,000 on a car then another $3000.00 to redesign the rear end when it's not that much of a problem ,$3000 .00 would be better spent on fuel . pretend there is no problem and enjoy the scenery, the rear end will take care of it's self .
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Follow Up By: Member - Blue M - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 02:27

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 02:27
I am with you on this one.
When I was ready to trade my Hilux in for vehicle with a bigger towing capacity I wanted to buy a V8 79 series.
I was told about the difference in the tracking of the cruiser. They had them at work and the boys reckon they were not so good, as did others who owned them.
Sort put me off a bit, and I thought it was a real noticeable problem, but when it was time to buy another vehicle, I did buy a V8 Single cab.
Worried about the roaming all over the place on dirt tracks, I decided to go and find some dirt. The first couple of dirt roads I drove on, I found it no different to any other vehicle I had driven on a simular road surface.
So I thought these are the wrong type, so I went in search of nastier roads, but so far I have not found any that worries me enough to bother about spending $$$,s to fix this problem.
Haven't been in any deep sticky mud as yet.
I am not saying that the rear doesn't wonder about little, but I don't find it any more concerning than my Hilux or any other vehicle I have driven where there are wheel ruts.
May be I will next year on my trip around Oz.

Cheers






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Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 07:59

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 07:59
Thanks both for your input…

The ultimate arbiter will always be the person behind the wheel of the car when it comes to an assessment of what many consider a “flaw” in an otherwise very capable vehicle. Possibly the other arbiter may well be the “holder of the purse strings” if they are not the one and the same person.

Fortunately Mrs Landy occupies both of those positions; I only get to drive the vehicle!

Our experience has been similar to others which, under certain conditions, has been a fish-tailing effect in the rear end of the vehicle. This may be exaggerated depending on how various vehicles are configured. “The Landy” is fairly heavily loaded.

A simple logic test confirms our experience is not imagined, but noting we are not engineers…

Offsetting the rear wheels of a vehicle sufficiently enough when compared to the front wheels, in the case of these vehicles by 95mm, it is inevitable that tracking and vehicle handling and stability, under certain conditions, will be impacted.

Sand-driving results in the back wheels pushing sand rather than following the front-wheel track and possibly leading to fish-tailing as either rear wheel tries to establish itself in the front-wheel track; rutted roads where you are tracking the front wheels in the rut will almost certainly see the rear wheels trying to “climb” the rut, creating varying levels of instability, add some mud to that and the problem can become more acute. There are many conditions that can be described – again, some will be prepared to accept it, others not.

Many have used wheel-spacers to correct the issue, which may well create its own set of problems putting aside the legality issue. From our perspective we looked for an engineered solution, which means it has been tested under various conditions to ensure the modification is safe to use and gains an ADR approval.

The intent of this thread and accompanying blog is too highlight that a fully engineered solution is now available for those of a similar mindset to ourselves.

Tru-tracker is converting them at the rate of a couple-a-week in addition to supplying the modification kit to others – so seemingly there are many like-minded people out there.

Clearly, it comes down to one’s own assessment of the problem and the extent to which you are willing to pay to have it corrected properly, if at all.

We are not inclined to pretend the problem doesn’t exist as the cost we pay may not be counted in money alone…

Cheers, Baz – The Landy



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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 08:13

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 08:13
I too have noticed it in conditions where there are deep wheel tracks and the rear can't alway decide which wheel to follow
I notice it but doesn't overly concern me

I would say that those with dual cabs and carrying a bit of a load would notice it more as your weight is further back creating a bit of a pendulum effect amplifying the situation

Baz on a side note, how does the GVM certificaion process go?
Does the original engineer have to approve the change or does the new engineer have his certificaion seperate to your original GVM certificate or does he do a whole new certificate that makes the original one redundant?
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:10

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:10
Hi Alby


To the extent the problem manifests will be determined by many factors I suspect, vehicle loading, the actual condition of the surface being driven and speed figuring highly. Some of these factors can be controlled, others not as easily.

Loading is not too much of a problem as we are diligent in how we approach it and consider loading carefully. And whilst it appears we have a big canopy that can be filled, it is never filled “to the brim” but simply provides us with loading options and a lockable canopy for security.

But clearly, all dual cabs will suffer from the rearward effect of the load being carried given most have an over-hang of varying degrees.

MDT Engineering, the Tru-tracker people, actually has an engineered solution for the over-hang and is achieved by extending the chassis by either 200mm or 500mm. Mind you that can create its own problems, including vehicle length and a turning circle like the cruise ship the “Queen Mary”.

But it is worth noting, that modification is more designed to improve handling of the vehicle, the chassis in its original unmodified form is designed and quite capable of taking loaded weights to the rear axle maximum. Mind you, the driven speed for any vehicle should be adjusted to account for the load being carried. Heavier should equate to lower...at least that is what we practice!

To your question on GVM, essentially whenever an engineer looks at your vehicle they have a responsibility that it is presented in a roadworthy condition and meets any State registration requirements at that point of time.

The original certifier does not need to view the Tru-tracker modification, but the engineer’s sign-off for the modification meant they needed to ensure the vehicle as a whole is roadworthy, including the impact of the current modification on previous modifications.

To this point, the GVM upgrade and weight of “The Landy” meant that it was required to have Cat 6 lighting, which in practical terms meant a larger indicator on the front panel. This was not done due to an oversight at the time of the GVM upgrade and I was required to comply prior to certification of the Tru-tracker modification.

As I discussed in an earlier blog, the Lovell GVM upgrade is to a weight of 3,900kg, which is above the combined axle weight for the VDJ79 Dual Cab. The Tru-tacker modification is approved to 3,780kg which is the total of the combined axle weight as it rolls out of the Toyota factory.

To get around this issue I had the GVM amended from 3,900kg to 3,780kg to comply. Noting, I was able to retain an increase in the front axle weight from the original 1,480kg to 1,540kg, but overall GVM still limited to 3,780kg.

This is not an issue for me as the additional GVM capacity I had above 3,780kg was only available on the front axle due to the limitation of the rear axle load limit.

It is worth highlighting that only the Lovell’s GVM upgrade for this vehicle is permitted to 3,900kg and many, including them (apparently), are puzzled how it was ever approved by DOTAR – many believe it was in error.

Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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Reply By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 08:42

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 08:42
Given that the rear axle width of the 70 series hasn't change since they started making them in the 80s, how has this suddenly become a flaw or a fault??

If you had a trailer made to suit you wheel track on an earlier model it will still be the same on the new one, the wheels will fit into the same deep rut that the model before did, the centre of gravity will be the same as the model before as the axle width hasn't actually changed..

They changed the front end not the back, so to me all the arguments about the rear of the car being different are nonsense, it may look different but it is the same as the last 30 years or so.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:20

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:20
Hi Steve

Therein lies the problem as I see it, Toyota didn't change the rear when they extended the front. The offset between front and rear is fairly large...

My understanding it is unique to this model, not previous ones.

For me, it isn't about trailers being towed, but vehicle handling under certain conditions, and I've taken steps to correct it, for sure at a cost, but the proof in the pudding is the improved handling...

Cheers Baz - The Landy

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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:38

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:38
Why change something that has been proven for thirty odd years, I am guessing the the engineers that design these this for a living thought there wasn't a need to and therefore left it alone.

I followed a twin cab into Jim Jim the other day and he didn't seem to have any trouble driving it like any other 70 series before it.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to change it, it is your money not mine, but it is certainly not a fault or a flaw from Toyota.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 10:30

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 10:30
Hi Steve

I won’t labour the point other than to highlight I don’t think this has been a problem for 30 years, just since the advent of the TD V8 – longer term owner’s will be sure to correct me or add further in that regard if they are inclined.

On engineers, for sure, I’ve (now) got a Toyota for the very reason that for the most part the vehicles it manufactures are well engineered. However, I suspect the best engineering solutions run afoul of the accountant’s pen, at times!

If the amount of noise around this flaw, as I’m inclined to describe it, is anything to go by, it might be a pointer that the accounting department in Tokyo engineered a coup over the boffins that do all the drawings. After all, the tooling costs to make the changes to the rear axle along with the cost of scrapping the inventory on hand would influence those managing the company’s profit and loss account to a more favourable outcome for the company’s shareholders.

History is littered with those kind of decisions and not just limited to the car manufacturers’.

But to be clear, I’m highlighting a solution from an Australian based engineering firm who have a solution for those inclined, for those not inclined – continue as you were!


Cheers, Baz – The Landy



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Follow Up By: Shaker - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 16:29

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 16:29
Steve, if a vehicle is built with a 95mm discrepancy in its track front to rear, it is a design fault, pure & simple!
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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 17:50

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 17:50
Shaker you are welcome to your opinion, I however choose to disagree with you. :-)
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 19:19

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 19:19
I'm now driving my fifth Troopy in 18 odd years, so I think I'm reasonably qualified to compare handling characteristics.
All my vehicles have been set up in pretty well the same way, overall weight is about the same.
This current VDJ has a Lovells GVM upgrade which did make an improvement to the ride and handling over the sloppy standard Toyota suspension.

I have not noticed any difference in handling in any conditions encountered in this model compared to the previous that could in anyway be attributed to track difference.
I have done mud, rock, ruts, high country, deserts, black top, dirt roads, pretty well everything with this model, no difference at all.
I point out that I have never seen a set of ruts so tight that they would have forced the rear to climb out compared to the front.

The previous models also had a slight track difference between front and rear, can't quite remember the exact amount but around 25mm each side if my memory serves me?

My understanding is its not uncommon for vehicle manufacturers to have different wheel tracks, it apparently improves handling?
Although from a 4wd perspective I don't dispute it is preferable that front and rear track the same, for no other reason than dodging possible tyre stakes.

The 70 series are a big heavy truck and they don't handle like a sports car, maybe I'm just used to the overall handling in various conditions and accept it as normal?



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Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 20:19

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 20:19
Hi John

And your view is respected, long-term first hand knowledge counts.

Mind you, there are those using spacers to correct what many think is a problem. They would be better served by seeking an engineered solution or doing nothing, it would be far safer...

Hopefully this thread alerts them to an alternative...

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 20:46

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 20:46
My point exactly John.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 21:51

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 21:51
And I do agree with you Baz, the MDT system is an excellent engineering solution, a real credit to a very innovative company.
I visited their premises briefly when Mick O was getting his chassis extension, very impressive mob.

Spacers are not a soloution, if you wish to change the track it's either the True Track or as Mick has done a full axle replacement.

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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 08:16

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 08:16
Regardless of whether you think the OEM setup is flawed or not I don't think anyone would dispute that the handling and performance of the vehicle can only be enhanced by increasing the rear track to match the front

The only downside of this mod is the resulting thin wallet
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Reply By: 906 - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:01

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:01
I Have to say again if the car is swaying or fish tailing , then the cheapest way to solve the problem is to slow down , the vehicle has heaps of grunt to speed up again in a short space .
I have driven hundreds of kms in soft sand with no track to follow at all and still can't tell the difference between my old 75 series and the v8 78 series apart from the comfort and the power obviously , if the tracks are so rough , slippery , bumpy or muddy you would be pushed to realise that the rear of the car is narrower than the front anyway .
Like I said before , sit back and enjoy the scenery and enjoy the trip and forget the the tracking of the rear end , these are great strong cars , enjoy it for what it is .

Colin
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:15

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 09:15
Each to their own Colin, as I highlighted earlier...

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 19:44

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 19:44
Agree Colin.
They are a high, heavy vehicle, with obvious high centre of gravity issues.

Drive it accordingly to the conditions and they will serve you very well indeed.
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Reply By: The Landy - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 12:04

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 12:04
Given the for and against discussion I thought it worth posting this report which is available on the internet under a Google Search.

The report commissioned by the WA Police – Using Crash Data to Manage Organisation Risk, is an interesting read…


A Case Study WA Police Toyota Troop Carrier


The report calls out the narrower wheel track as an issue that needs to be corrected.

For good order, I’m not the person to debate the report with, but merely offer it up for a read to those with an interest – the report’s author will be your go to man!


Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 12:08

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 12:08
Apologies, correct link follows....

A Case Study WA Police Toyota Troop Carrier

cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 19:25

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 19:25
Oh Baz!

What a great way to keep your thread running! LOL

Love ya work - keep it up!

Cheers

Anthony
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 20:16

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 20:16
Hi Anthony

The thread has long run its course, but hopefully alerted those who are inclined to seek a solution to the tracking issue that a fully engineered solution exists versus installing "spacers".

This case study does highlight that others have a similar view and first hand experience of the issue at hand...

But at the end of the day, nothing right, or wrong in these discussions, and the ultimate arbiter is the person in the driving seat.

What did you think of the article?

Cheer's Baz - The Landy
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 12:08

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 12:08
Hi Baz

I don't like the idea of spacers and would never use them for on road use.

Interesting read - unfortunately one of my mates was one of those rollover statistics mentioned in the case study. Damn lucky to be alive. Although not sure what if they determined the cause.

Although it is only a small sample group (71 vehicle) when looking at the percentage of accidents (12.07% of total units) the figures start to get scary.

It would be interesting to find out the numbers of Hire Company and Mining Company rollover accidents that have been caused by the track variance. How many of these have I seen on the back of Flat tops coming back down the highway to Perth. I had never thought about it the track variance being a possible cause of the accident.

And before all the nay sayers get started about manipulating statistics to suit your own agenda, that is what every statistician does every day. Most of you would have bought something or invested money in something based on this premise.

From personal experience, driving Landcruiser Light Tankers (fire units) in sandy conditions with a full load on the back, you have to work hard. It tries to climb out of the ruts and then tries to drive back in. The only saving grace is the power of the V8. Also the tendency to oversteer can be frightening driving under lights and sirens. Fortunately good driving instruction/training gives you the skill to adjust.

On another note - I was in my mates 4WD shop the other day and a staffer from the Local Toyota Dealership (where I bought my Landcruiser from) came in and purchased a set of aluminium spacers to put on a customers vehicle. Does that make them legal? Does that endorse their safety? I wonder how the insurance company would go in the event of a payout?

And yes, I am a Landcruiser owner - have been since I got my license. I have never been without one and never will be. Up to number 13 at the moment but I wouldn't own one of these.

Cheers

Anthony
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 17:51

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 17:51
I didn't interpret that report/presentation as attributing the rollover incidence to the track width.

Given WAPOL seem to be running more Troopies than other Australian police forces as a percentage of total vehicles I think it's reasonable to see how that influences their stats, but stars can be interpreted in a number of ways.

The major cause of accidents would be high speed on largely poor road surfaces, roof loading and running splits.
Splits have poor handling at the best of times plus they have higher risk of punctures due to sand etc getting between the tyre and the tube rubbing a hole and rapid deflation causing many accidents.

These vehicles do have a high centre of gravity and as I've said earlier they must be driven accordingly, running too fast on a loose surface is an issue in any vehicle but add the HSG to the equation then the risk rises.

My daily driver is an XR6 Turbo and I certainly don't drive my Troopy the same way as I drive my XR :)


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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 21:08

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 21:08
Someone famously said once there are 3 different lies, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Well here are some to put in the mix.

Parks Australia in Kakadu have had 35 70 series vehicle per 2 years since the 1980s, since 2007 there fleet has been the new V8 70 series being single cab, duel cab or troopies. the area they cover is 20,000 square kms the vehicles do about 150 to 180 thousand km per vehicle before trade in, so the new fleet this year makes over 90 vehicles since the V8 was introduced.
Since 2007 I know for a fact that not one of those vehicle has been involved in any accident, roll over ect:

Work those statistics out and I think you will find there is nothing wrong with them what so ever.
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 22:47

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 22:47
Steve

I would like to see documented evidence of your stats. At least Baz has provided "published" data. Not something simply he "knows as a fact". You may work in the Parks Industry or live in Kakadu - but that doesn't equate to scientific data. Empirical vs anecdotal - I know which I would believe. So which type of data is yours "lies or damned lies"?

Frankly, I have never known a government department to trade a vehicle with 150 000 to 180 000 km on the clock. But that doesn't make it a fact.

35 vehicles every 2 years since 2007 makes 175 vehicles not 90.
(2007 to 2015 = 8 years. Replacement every 2 years = 4 cycles of 35 vehicles total 140 vehicles plus the 35 they started with in 2007). That is a mathematical fact.

And boy! would I love to employ the Parks Australia drivers of these vehicles - "not one of those vehicle has been involved in any accident, roll over etc". Think of the saving they have made not losing their no claim bonus.

Sorry, but you did put your "statistics" into the mix.

Cheers

Anthony
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 23:18

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 23:18
I was told first hand that the Alice Springs police vehicles struggle in the deep sand in the dry bed of the Todd River & the 'locals' know it full well!
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 23:29

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 23:29
I doubt the Alice coppers would bother dropping tyre pressures since they don't carry compressors, so I have no doubt given they are running splits at road pressures they would certainly struggle in the soft sand of the Todd.

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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 06:21

Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 06:21
Anthony what a piece of work you are, without so much as a clue who I am or what I know you call me a lair, I have worked on parks cars for years during the wet season, I have set them up for sale, my wife works for parks, I see these car every day so if their was a roll over or and accident I would friggin know about it and to date none.

To be perfectly honest Anthony I don't give a rats arse what you think of my post, or if it contains published data or not, but you have no right to call me a liar.

I stand by my post above.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 07:29

Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 07:29
Firstly, let’s keep the discussion civil, remembering it is quite okay to agree to disagree without the angst!


I actually put the statistics aside, although they were revealing.

What caught my attention was the following commentary;

Under “other factors WAPOL Troopy” the report calls out that the …

“Narrow rear track (95mm less than front) increases sway and poor tracking and induces oversteer at turns. (I’d be interested to undersand what led the report’s author to this conclusion - which is consistent with the experience of many others).

Under “recommended solutions”

“That the rear track (of the Troopy) width be increased…

And under “Troop Carrier Development Project”

“Wider rear track improved stability, handling, response, and significantly improved off-road handling / tracking…”
(The report doesn't say how it achieved the wider wheel track in the development project)

You can choose to accept or reject those notions put forward by the report’s author, but it highlights others have recognised a similar issue in the handling of the post 2007 TDV8 70 Series Toyota’s and been willing to offer those findings to a government agency...

Cheer’s Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 12:08

Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 12:08
Sorry Steve - your the one who put it out there....

"Someone famously said once there are 3 different lies, there are lies, damned lies and statistics."

If you can't provide statistics, the information you provide must come from the one of the other two classes of information you cite.

If you are going to use a quotation to make a point - make sure it makes your point. Don't just use it to try and be funny.

I don't recall anywhere in my post calling you a liar - I asked you what type of data were you where presenting based on your own quote... "So which type of data is yours "lies or damned lies"?

A little thinned skinned don't you think? If you post on a public forum be prepared to take the responses you evoke. I could have just as easily had a go at you for calling me a liar (or Baz who provided the statistics).

Isn't it amazing that the only thing you haven't had a crack at me about is the number of vehicles you state PA has had since 2007. But then again, you can't argue with mathematics can you?

i rest my case, I don't intend on hijacking this thread or getting into a flame war with you.

Cheers

Anthony
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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 19:11

Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 19:11
Anthony I apologize, the first thing I saw this morning was your post at 5.30, I am not at my best at this time, my quote was tongue in check and i did portray that well, my mistake.

Seeing your response just now, I see the miss understanding.

The facts however are true as to my post, are they research statistics no, but my observations over many years, except the mathematical discrepancy that was a late night after a long day.

Once again apologies.
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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 11:21

Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 11:21
Did not portray that well
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Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 20:31

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 20:31
First hand experience................or trawling?

I have a '79 series for 5 years ...travelled every conceivable track.... towing and not towing and never had the issues you are stating

Maybe there is a loose nut behind the wheel in this case?

Life is a journey, it is not how we fall down, it is how we get up.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 21:58

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 21:58
Mate maybe a little harsh, Baz is certainly not a troll.

Baz has started a very good thread and offered excellent points in the affirmative.
I don't necessarily agree with his viewsand clearly neither due you, but that's ok, we can agree to disagree, still be mates and he can spend his money as he see's fit.



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Follow Up By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 08:14

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 08:14
Fair enough John....I will retract the troll comment.....and accept the OP was in good faith

However considering the thousands of these vehicles out there and the number of years since release I doubt most of the supposed issues that drivers have experienced can be attributed to the vehicles difference in track...

I am sure the conditions and driver experience or reaction to conditions would in most cases be the negative. ...not the vehicle
In fact I doubt many owners would ever have known there was a measurement difference unless they had ben told.....and now blame Mr Toyota for any issues they may have experienced or caused.

I still believe modifications are unecessary and is mind over matter.....but each to their own........

Life is a journey, it is not how we fall down, it is how we get up.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 08:47

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 08:47
Bungarra...


In 10 year of contributing to EO via some 100 blogs, trek notes and commentary in the forums this would be a first for me to be called a “troll”.

I’ve taken the time to relate my experience and if one takes the time to read my opening comments you will see I have indicated it is “my experience” based on the configuration I have my vehicle in.

I’m not in the habit of responding to posts similar to yours as usually it is simply a waste of my time.

But here is the thing, there are many people having similar issues to myself and a simple google search “Toyota 70 Series tracking issue or Toyota 70 Series wheel spacers” will confirm this. I’ve also posted a report on a Case Study done for the WA Police where the rear wheel track is called out as a problem that could lead to rollovers.

Seemingly I’m not the only nut out there…

The purpose of this thread was to highlight that there is a fully engineered solution, developed in Australia, available to those who are inclined and a much better alternative to putting “spacers” on the vehicle. Adding, it would seem unlikely a well-established engineering firm of over 30-years standing would waste its time developing a solution and tooling up for it if there wasn’t a demand for the solution.

Ultimately, as I pointed out a couple of times, the arbiter of whether a problem exists and to what extent one is willing to fork out money to correct it is the person behind the steering wheel. I see my expenditure as a good investment that, in my initial trials, shown a large improvement in vehicle handling.


I can live with others not being of the same view or opinion.


To close off, I come to EO to share my experiences but above all else to learn, in this instance if my post has me labelled as a “troll” rest assured I will wear the title proudly. Hopefully the post highlights a viable alternative to what is potentially an unsafe practice of correction with wheel spacers, seemingly a preferred method of correction by those who recognise a problem in their own vehicles handling…

Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:00

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:00
Baz....it seems my reply may have occurred simultaneously as yours to mine....yours posted first.
Sorry if you took offence and I withdraw the troll remark as I did earlier.....I was wrong in that comment......I confess I took it as being posted by a Landrover owner digging at Toyota but I guess I could have looked further.
We are all entitled to our opinions I retain mine as do many other owners and likewise many share yours so we can agree to disagree ....the forum is always a gealthy place to learn and exchange ideas.....as in this case
Regards
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:45

Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:45
Hi Bungarra

No offence taken and your sentiments are appreciated.

I endeavour to post what I believe are informative topics and people will make of them what they want. Crikey, Mrs Landy disagrees with a lot (most) of what I say, but we’ve remained happily married for 30 plus years, in spite of that. So I reckon I can live with EO reader’s disagreeing with me without too much discomfort…

I did once own three Landrovers, hence the name!

Cheers, Baz – “The Landy”
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Reply By: Shaker - Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 22:06

Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 22:06
It would be very interesting to see the comments if say, Land Rover had done it & not Toyota!

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Reply By: Slow one - Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 13:07

Saturday, May 30, 2015 at 13:07
Baz,
I have driven quite a few of these on property tracks and have noticed the tracking problem. Most tracks are fine it is just some that cause the problem.

On a dirt road there never seems to be a problem.

If you have the $s, you may as well alter the rear and see a result first hand.
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