EGR on 1HD-FTE to block or not to block?
Submitted: Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 18:44
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1HD-FTE
Quite possibly an old topic here but I have to see if any boffins have any answers....
Thinking of blocking the EGR on my 1HD-FTE, for some obvious reasons:
However these are just assumptions for now.
1. Cleaner intake, better flow.
2. Cooler air, the HDJ-78RV does not have the luxury of an intercooler. (yet...)
3. Better response, more power, if not recycling gases then should be quicker when you need to put the foot down.
4. Improved fuel economy.
My misgivings are as follows:
1. Does this recycling of carbon in any way contribute to the longevity of the 1HD-FTE? is this the reason they are such an indestructible donk?
2. The computer turns the EGR on in periods of little demand, I'm assuming that the computer ALSO lessens the amount of diesel to compensate for a reduced oxygen flow. Does this mean with a blocked EGR the car will run lean? I know in a petrol this means hotter engine, however in Diesels I'm prone to think cooler.... In which case NO PROBLEM. Or is the fuel unchanged.
3. Blocking the vacuum pipe to stop the actuator is fine if the EGR is functioning correctly, but if stuck open should I fit a plate over the EGR pipe to make sure?
4. Extra pollution. Had to add this, even though Brownwin Bishop can take a joy ride in a helicopter that would spit out 1000 times more pollution that my troopy ever could. This one is for the greenies.
Cheers for informed answers, no guesses thanks.
Reply By: garrycol - Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:24
Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:24
Your points 2,3 and 4 are not relevant.
As a general statement EGRs only open on trailing throttle as that is when the emissions they are designed to reduce come into play - when powering along the EGrs are closed.
So 2 is not generally relevant as hot exhaust gases are not being fed into the engine when power is being used.
3. As mentioned - not open when you need power so you will not generate more power with blanked EGRs - however if you have faulty egrs that are stuck open the engine will run like a dog.
4. If your egrs are working fine you will not have better fuel economy as they are closed on the power cycle.
The main benefit in blanking is not sending sooty abrasive deposits into the engine causing wear and clogging the intake with can cause airfliow issues if it builds up.
If the EGRs fail and it is letting exhaust in on the power side all you concerns above come into play - so there is a reliability issue.
I have a different car but I have my engine blanked and no more soot in the intake.
Garry
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:55
Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:55
Thanks Gary, your info has cleared this up nicely and I'll be blanking my EGR off this weekend. During which I'll scrub the gunk out of the intake also. :)
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 20:36
Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 20:36
Hi again Gary, just flicking through the Toyota factory manual and these egr are designed to operate at all times after reaching operating temp of 70 deg c and only shut off during periods of quick acceleration. So my point 2 is quite relevant and it could be reasonable to assume the computer feeds slightly more fuel before warm up and the egr starts to function. I'm starting to think I need to ask a Japanese engineer in Toyota....
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 21:19
Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 21:19
Then if that is the case, Toyota needs to go and learn EGRs 101.
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 07:48
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 07:48
Damn right Gary, you should contact Toyota engineering and explain why all of their engineers are wrong and you are right. But I think you'll find they are pretty arrogant with their opinions, Toyota generally are...
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 12:28
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 12:28
If the EGRs are open except for periods of fast acceleration then they are using a very early generation of egr system - maybe that is why Jap diesels are not at the forefront of diesel technology.
Maybe Toyota need to take some lessons from European diesel makers where the EGrs are only open when the NOx emmisions are being generated which is when the engine is generating little power - closed or trailing throttle.
However given what your manual says I would definitely be getting your engine blanked because the EGR design is strangling your engine even when they are fully serviceable.
On a modern diesel with a proper EGR system the engine develops full power and gives good fuel consumption and it is only when EGRs fail that engine performance and fuel consumption is impacted.
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 18:16
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 18:16
Roger that. It makes little sense to me to have the engine pumping in exhaust gases even though you might only be cruising down the highway on low revs. Unless I have got this wrong, but like I said the factory manual says as much.
Going to shove a resistor in the vacuum pass through solenoid, manual states 11-13 ohm, which means the damn thing will be drawing a solid amp. Going to need at least a 15W resistor! Crazy.... but this is just to see if the ECU complains, of course the easiest way is just to block the EGR vacuum pipe followed by this weekend blanking up the big sucker....
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 19:49
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 19:49
Irrespective of the why fores and why different manufacturers do things, they all did - it was a bad idea for all manufacturers to do this and as the user of the vehicle I consider one of the smartest things you can do is blank the egrs.
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 22:43
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 22:43
I guess whether Mr Toyota is up with the latest technology with regard to diesel engines may be a matter of conjecture.
I kinda get the idea that the use of EGR was little more than a stop gap measure until more efficient and proven methods were available.
Maybe we should keep in mind that as reliable, and for their day, as advanced as the 1HD-FTE was, we are discussing nigh on 20 year old technology.
I could be wrong but my understanding was that the various manufactures that employed an EGR system were trying to reduce NOX emissions. Those nasties that came out the tail pipe when combustion temperatures got beyond a certain level. Their answer was to throw a bit of exhaust gas on the fire, so speak, reducing the burn temps and thereby reducing NOX.
Unfortunately they also added a few particulates which can be a tad abrasive and also required the addition of particulate filters to stop them escaping into the atmosphere.
Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 22:53
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 22:53
Let's call it for what it is...
No engine manufacturer would incorporate this into its engine if it had a choice. It was imposed on them in the interest of emissions control!
Bad idea that we have been lumbered with.
Mind you tinkering with it potentially puts you at odds with vehicle compliance, but on balance you have to ask yourself will a few "blanked out" EGRs have that much effect vs everything else we "punch" into the atmosphere?
Given the cost of vehicles these days, I'll put self interest first in this instance and preserve the integrity of the vehicle by making this adjustment.
Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Reply By: Life Member TourBoy, Bundaberg - Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:38
Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:38
Hi mate,
I have the EGR blanked off in my 100. I also took the inlet pipework off and used heaps of cleaners and scrapers to remove the gunk built up from the last 260,000km. It was approx. 5mm thick all the way around the insides. This is a restriction of air into the engine. Now after 2000km of surburban driving where it never gets up to operating temp properly, the oil is still clear enough on the dipstick that it is hard to see. Before it would go black.
I also removed the restrictions between the
snorkel and air filter as described in Lcool but I don't think the troopy has the fixed blade gizmo that restricts 50% of the flow like the prados and 100 / 105's do. My blanking plate is 3mm stainless and was $11 delivered from fleebay. It feels smoother and is cleaner out the rear end most likely due to the better air flow more than EGR.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:53
Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:53
Thanks Dave, this has definitely been the best reason I have found to blank the EGR, to keep the soot out of the oil which contaminates it and increases engine wear presumably.
I did think that carbon would be lubricating, like graphite which gunsmiths and locksmiths use instead of oil.
Of course a clean intake makes airflow better also.
Looks like I'm making up a stainless EGR plate this weekend...... :)
Has anyone gone past the intake to the manifold when cleaning the gunk out?
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 22:50
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 22:50
Unfortunately when carbon is subjected to higher temps it becomes a rather abrasive little particle.
Have a look at what happens to carbon if subjected to high enough temperatures and pressures.
Hey presto, the hardest naturally occurring substances know to man.
Also one of the most expensive.....LOL
Cheers
Pop
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Reply By: The Landy - Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:44
Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 19:44
Tick me off for blanking!
Cheers, Baz - The Landy
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Life Member TourBoy, Bundaberg - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 13:00
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 13:00
Hi Baz,
yours may throw a code, you might have to leave a small hole in the blanking plate to fool the ecu
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 13:44
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 13:44
Hi Dave
Yes, that was the also suggestion from the Turbo Engineering company that did the work on it, and the way we have it, a small hole which will act like a vortex.
Interesting was that despite only 50,000klm there was a reasonable build up of carbon.
Cheers,
Baz
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Reply By: Life Member - Terry 80FTE - Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 22:39
Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 22:39
I guess for legality reasons you're talking about an "off-road" vehicle,
Then it needs blocking off, but leave the electrical bit still plugged in so it won't throw codes.
Also disconnect and remove the inlet heater, it's not required for starting and is a restriction, some times the relay sticks and kills the battery as
well.
I recall there is a 'straight through' replacement available from Toyota, you could find the part number on LCOOL if you did a search.
Intake replacement
This helps keep the air cooler
Cheers;)
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Life Member - Terry 80FTE - Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 22:42
Tuesday, Jul 21, 2015 at 22:42
This was the original engine but now has a 1HD-FTE under the intercooler barrel.
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Follow Up By: Life Member TourBoy, Bundaberg - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 12:59
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 12:59
Hi Terry, I have disconnected the heater as it pulls the main battery down to 10v when you start the engine, didn't kill the alternator but killed a new battery. I have left it in there (I know it is a restriction) and will remove it later.
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 20:05
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 20:05
Ok, so removing the heating grill is surprising. I would have thought that the motor needs this to start easily. Does this mean you have to crank it more on cold start? From an airflow perspective, forcing air through a grill is insane!
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 23:02
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 23:02
There are fors and againsts. Disabling the heater element didn't affect the cold starting of my somewhat older 1HD-FT one little bit. It fires up a treat even at zero or below ambients. I will admit I haven't tried it at or above the snow line in the dead of winter.
Catching the larger bits of
debris from a disintegrating turbo compressor wheel could be considered an advantage though (;=))
Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Life Member - Terry 80FTE - Thursday, Jul 23, 2015 at 17:56
Thursday, Jul 23, 2015 at 17:56
Disabling the heater won't affect cold starting,
it's for reducing smoke 'after' start-up.
Cheers
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Reply By: Bigfish - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 07:14
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 07:14
Being a Pajero owner I purchased an electronic mod that tricks the EGR into thiking it is not required to open . Common issue with the Paj (and other makes) is the carbon build up in manifold. SPV EGR electronic module is a simple plug and play unit. Unsure if it is being manufactured for the Toyota/Patrol though. I checked my oil at 8000klms and it was still clean (brown, not black) so proof that the EGR mod works
well.
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Reply By: Member - Leigh (Vic) - Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 08:59
Wednesday, Jul 22, 2015 at 08:59
Having blanked mine I found the the carbon deposits in the inlet had disappeared at the next scheduled adjustment of the valves to be replaced with a thing film of oil. The sump oil was remaining clean for 2k plus before any discolouration as
well. I only blanked the tube but will fit the plate one day! Cannot recommend it highly enough for this engine. The CRD are another matter and filtering the EGR is probably a better approach. Cheers
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Thursday, Jul 23, 2015 at 21:27
Thursday, Jul 23, 2015 at 21:27
No need to blank it, just simply disable it as per this article:
http://www.lcool.org/technical/70_series/egr_vent/vent.htm
And while you're at it, put a 3" exhaust (without cat converter) because the cat converters blocked up with carbon.
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 07:11
Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 07:11
Sure is the next thing on the list, I'm sure the cat is blocked as it feels like it's forcing exhaust. Just got to find the cash :(
Looks like this LCOOL site corroborates the factory manual that says the EGR is activated during light loads, not just deceleration. This seems crazy subjecting the intake to hot gasses when we're all trying to keep intake as cool as possible. Of course I'm doing this mod off road use only, I'll revert back to standard when around town.... ;)
I'll still block the plate with a piece of stainless, just in case the EGR valve gets stuck open for some reason. Which would be disastrous.
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:26
Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 11:26
Being an obviously environmentally responsible person I'm sure you will restore the EGR to compliance mode when around town. (;=))
As for the first problem. If you are temporarily a bit short of the folding stuff (vets do seem to charge a lot), why not try just lifting it's tail and use a smallish bottle brush?????????
Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 19:41
Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 19:41
I'd need a proper feline scrubber, and yes vet is my next profession!
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 19:48
Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 19:48
Thought I would clean out the intake this afternoon, coated in black exhaust scum!!! scrubbed it out with kero but left the intake manifold for now as I dont have a gasket for it. Although now I think about it I should have taken it off also and straight into the acid bath! But EGR? bad idea, mine will be disabled for now as the beast left me grinning from ear to ear with the power increase! like a new truck. Who ever designed a system to send hot exhaust gases back into the intake? bloody greenies. Weather the power increase is from a cleaner intake, or cooler air or a malfunction in the EGR making it run like a slug who knows.... but it aint going back... Until I drive on the road of course. :)
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Follow Up By: 1HD-FTE - Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 20:13
Friday, Jul 24, 2015 at 20:13
In fact has anyone taken off the intake manifold for cleaning? looks like quite a job because the injector pipes run over the top. Not sure if it's worth the trouble.
Has anyone got an opinion about catalytic converters? Is that one just after the engine under the driver side door? I want to remove it as a stop gap until I can afford a 3" stainless system... for better flow. And only off road. God save the planet and such...
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