lubricants, coolants, ratings etc

Submitted: Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 08:30
ThreadID: 12326 Views:1846 Replies:5 FollowUps:26
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Hi all, back again on oils etc. If you have any question on the above, ask away.
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Reply By: GO_OFFROAD - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 08:57

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 08:57
G'Day Russel,
Currently using Mobil 1 engine oil in my 1kz-te prado, [ not the best price wise with 5k oil chnages] and castrol vmx-m in the cruiser box, which really helps with the cold weather synchro issue.

Still have the standard toyota diff oils in as car is only 30k old, but ready to change them for winter, [I have a pre winter and pre summer "preventitive maintenance" schedule I keep] and thanks to your invitation, I am wondering do you have products which compare to be used, and the cost per 5 or 20lt?

If you wish to post your email addy, I can reply so you can email me the pricing if you wish.
AnswerID: 55723

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:26

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:26
hello go offroad, i have mixed feelings re mobil 1 in a diesel, i know there are some that have been on it, but it depends on a lot of things like which mobil 1 (as there are several) and how it is rated re API and ACEA specs. Being a turbo you do not want a lightly rated diesel oil that was really designed for a petrol.
My recomendations in our product range would be Cruiser oil for the engine, our "new" gearbox and diff oil range to be released by month end, details of which will appear on our web site by then.
Generally, with your transmission stay with a 75/85 or some of the 80 weight oils like your vmx as they in the main will help over a 80/90 with cold shift baulk etc.
I just wish i could tell you more on our new 4WD range right now, but were are still in preparation mode for release. I feel any patience here will be rewarded.
Great to hear another talk of "preventative" maintenance, it is the only way to go.
email can be obtained from our web, rather than post from here.
regards, russell
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Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:36

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:36
OK thanks Russel,

BTW, the mobil 1 meets all the engine spec requirements from the manufacturer, and in the same W ratings etc.

Its just the price at 5k chnages that could be handy, especially in bulk.

The castrol -M oil also is a bit of a specialty oil the M standing for mitsubishi I believe, who the oil was developed for.

Will te new Synforce range be launched here, or print media?
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Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 10:01

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 10:01
sorry offroad, i know what you mean about the price and availability in bulk, but in all honesty, in your case you don't need it as that product will not do anything our semi synthetics can't do.
russell
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FollowupID: 317581

Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 10:31

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 10:31
OK Russell,
your chance to convert me with technical data here, can you give me some "technical" information on the comparison of the 2, or more oils, that shows what you have just mentioned please?
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FollowupID: 317583

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:20

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:20
ok here we go..
firstly lets look at specs. Unless the mobil 1 in the our lab is different, it states ACEA specs of a3 and b3, and as i suspect you have more than a little knowledge re specs etc, i am sure you will know where i am coming from.
the A3 is a petrol rating, the b3 is a light load diesel rating, but there is no mention of another rating that normally completes the trilogy, and that is the heavier load diesel rating of an E?.
obviously mobil are not claiming a rating at all here.
in all the a, b, and e ratings the higher the number following the letter, the higher (normally) the performance of the product in those catagories.
now this is just ratings so far, but our cruiser oil is a3, b4 and e2, so from this we can assume at this point, just on ratings, cruiser will give better and stronger protection over another oil with just a3, b3 and no heavier load diesel rating.
API specs are another rating system that is probably more commonly used to rate a diesel oil at present. M1 from the bottle i have here is CF diesel rated, not very high by todays standards, as cruiser oil is rated as CH-4, offering a more advanced diesel spec and far better protection and performance in diesel oils, as any oil additive company will confirm.
But having said all that, another point to consider is base oils, as it is not fair to say that the ad pack that determines all of those ratings is better, so the oil must be better or even as good, as in many cases it is not.

base oil types play a very important role in an oils performance re longevity, shear stability etc, in other words the ability of that oil to go the distance under various conditions is another very important factor in determining how good a product is.
now we all accept that in the main, synthetics will go further than mineral base oils, but there are 3 types of synthetics ranging from hydrocracked paraffinics through to PAO's, the latter normally being the better than the first.
not many synthetic products on the market today are PAO based and in the main are group 3 base oils (hydrocracked paraffinics).
Now before i comment on cruiser oil it is important to know that throughout the world, to be able to call a product semi synthetic it is generally required to have a synthetic base oil content of at least 50% of the total base oil content of the product.
Australia does not have legislation in place to enforce this as many other countries do, so you can gues what happens from there.
we have made the choice that we will stick to industry guidlines, globally, so we are not prepared to openly call cruiser oil semi synthetic as we fall short of the international line of a margin so small that others would say "close enough".
the remaining percentage of base oil in cruiser oil is group1 paraffinic, so we have a blend of all paraffinic base oils, recognised world wide to be better than the normal type mineral oils.
changing your oil at 5oook is great but even our cruiser oil will go WAY past that distance as M1 will probably do also, so you have no real advantage.

another spec to look at and it is one that not many oil companies are talking about at the moment, is the Japanese diesel spec of JASO DH-1.
cruiser oil passes this spec also and looking at M1 having no ACEA E rating, i would seriously doubt that M1 could.
be a tad carefull here as ther are other JASO specs, when checking specifically reference DH-1.
so in summary, and in my opinion, cruiser oil outspecs M1 in your case, has better base oils than most other comparable type products on the market but, by a tad, the base oils are not as good as M1 (i suspect), but will offer as good or even better protection, and both products will go way past 5000k.
why should you change to cruiser ?, with all the above in mind, cruiser 5 litre is arround 30.00 and i suspect M1 is more than that.
how have i done so far, russell
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Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 13:47

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 13:47
OK, thanks for your post Russell,
Can you elaborate a little for us on detergent qualities, and how they relate to specs, this being of interest to me because of the 1kz-te being a high oil sooting engine, making it require 5k services, and the information may benifit others here who may not fully understand this part of the oils job.

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FollowupID: 317600

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 14:20

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 14:20
your absolutely right, a lot of totoya diesels are considered to be dirty engines (producing soot) and it is considered prudent that oil changes no matter what oil you are using, should not go past 5000k.

many consider Jap diesels in general to be dirty.

detergency along with dispercancy is critical here, as one cleans and the other "disperses" or holds soot etc in suspension to travel through to the filtration.

but most normal type filters will not clean enough to allow oil changes to be extended, and i have seen many oil samples taken from extended oil changes from these engines actual form into a gelly when cooled.

you can imagine the pumpability of these at cold start, almost nil.

Sulphated ash contents as indicated on most oil companies spec sheets are in part an indication of detergency levels, with dirtier engines usually requiring either medium ash or high ash.

low ash hence detergency is considered to be arround 1% sulphated ash
medium ash arround 1.3 to 1.5%
high ash arround 1.5 to as high as 2%

CF-4 rated oils traditionally had approx 1.3 ash making them a medium ash/detergent
CG-4 were mostly at 1% making them low.
CH-4 are usually available in two levels, one at arround 1.2% and 1.35 upwards %.

the Japanese came in with their own specs that putting it simply, called for medium to high ash/detergency as well as other aspects, and this formed the JASO DH-1 spec for Japanese diesels.

nissan stipulate in their handbook not to use a CG-4 (low ash) but to use a CF-4 (nearly all of which are medium ash).

I personally believe that a CF-4 or a CH-4 medium ash oil is the one to use, and if possible one with a Jaso DH-1 rating.

if a person has been using a low ash oil for some time they will have build a up of deposits within the engine.

but no matter what, not to go much past 5000k

your questions are great offroad, and this one has prompted me to go to task and write a tech page on this subject for our web site, should be done in a few weeks.
regards, russell
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FollowupID: 317601

Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 15:14

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 15:14
Thanks Russell,
your answers have also been very good, prompting me to ask some more detailed questions, some of which I have some knowledge about, but make for great information for other forum users to read, who may be wondering.

Another oil detail worth mentioning, given other brands have been mentioned now in the thread, is the diffence in oil specs between Japenese spec engines and US made diesel engines, you have touched on this briefly regarding detergents etc, but tolerances are another issue which see different requirements for each engine and its origin as well.

Please send us a link to your technical page when completed.
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FollowupID: 317607

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 16:08

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 16:08
now you are making me earn my keep, i am at home and feel naked without my library etc, so i will have to generalise to some extent.

there are differences re jap and usa requirements generally, and yes, detergency levels have been of some focus, but when cat and cummins etc now in the main push 1.35 or so ash it does make you wonder.

jap diesels are definately dirtier than usa and are different in design to some extent. remember that the earlier mazda diesel was in fact a perkins and that there is talk of some isuzu engines being cat.

as well as recent emmission laws, different and reducing sulphur levels in diesel fuels and yes different designs (tolerances included), all call for different requirements of an oil.

additive companies (not after market) are the big players here, as it is after discussion and testing with the OEM's that they offer up packages that suit the various requirements and pass the various tests, and this may also include different ways to meet them, re base oil sats and groups, pack types etc.

the ASTM (american testing methods) does have an extensive list of test methods that the oils must pass to be able to claim the OEM's rating and these have also been adopted offfshore to some extent, as benchmarks.

some engine manufacturers developed test sequences of their own for their engines, which have also been adopted as benchmarks in others, mack, caterpillar and cummins all seem to have contributed here as you find many of their procedures quoted elswhere as requirements or benchmarks.

there is a lot involved and when it comes down to it, oil companies in the main do not design oils but rather produce oils within the guide lines of the OEM's, the base oil suppliers and the additive suppliers,
but that still gives the blenders some room to move under certain circumstances, to be able to improve performance to some degree, eg viscosities, overtreat, better base oils and better ad packs etc.

for example, the required spec may be met using a mineral base oil but it will obviously be a better product should the product be made as a semi synthetic.
market pressures amongst other things can determine an oil companies direction here.

my own experience to date, has given me to believe more in the majors and that their products are OK, with most complaints stemming from incorrectly recommended specifications in the first place, from the salesman, and not a problem with the oil itself.

shell, bp, mobil, castrol etc all have a vested interest in quality, with most of the small players more so in cutting corners in an effort to take market share of them by way of price advantage.

sorry, i am digressing, but does any of this make sense yet. russell

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Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 16:18

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 16:18
It makes sense to me, having istalled equipment for some of the major oil manufacturers, who bottle more than one brand at one plant, it only leaves the additives to make the difference from the base product ;-)

[that would include some of the cheaper ones ]

Makes you wonder how well they can flush the equipment between product changes too ;-)
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Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 16:34

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 16:34
yes, there are a lot of things going on as some one in your position would be aware of and some one in my position can not say too much about. i do feel you know what i am talking about.

I have been very vocal on some issues in the past, resulting in certain types of correspondance from some companies (they all fell over when their bluff was called though), and have a burning desire to prove many things, but the only way i can do it and stay free is to make a better product and market it without knocking them, even though many need to be knocked.

the dollar rules with most of them, and they do not seem to care if a small percentage know the truth as long as the masses do not.

mate, i could go on for hours on this, but it is not very informative re lubricants and the forum, just close to heart.

great to have chatted with you and hope to again and again, russell
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FollowupID: 317622

Reply By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:46

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 09:46
the launch will be staged over 3 months with the final part being a test report and write up in a4wd monthly. a4wd have done independant testing on cruiser oil and will not tell us of the results yet, except to say that we will be "very happy" with what they are going to print.
a little over the top i thought, but they do not want the content of their article being broadcasted prior to mag release in late july, i suppose fair enough.
the first part is a web site upgrade and announcements both here and in local print media. we are not a huge company with much to spend on media releases and ads etc, so we rely heavily on "word of mouth" and the products performance etc.
russell
AnswerID: 55724

Reply By: Wayne - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 10:34

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 10:34
Hi Russel,
I have a 3.0 lt Hilux n/a 1999 model. 140,000 on the clock. I'm using Penrite HPR light diesel 15w40 semi synthetic (whatever that is) in the engine, Penrite Limslip sae90 in the rear LSD, and Penrite Hypoid sae80w90 in the front diff (IFS) gearbox and transfercase. I noticed that the oil light stays on a liitle longer on the first start of the day than it did with the oil that the local Toyota dealer used. Any thoughts? Also are these suitable oils for my car? It is used as a general runaround, not usually any load in the back. A bit of 4wd tracks on weekends etc. Also as I work away it sits for 5 weeks at a time without starting.
Thanks for any help or advice,
Wayne
AnswerID: 55729

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:28

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:28
easy !!!
Wayne, your choices are correct but re the oil light taking longer you have room for improvement here.
The ideal situation is for the oil light to go out as quick as possible and to maintane oil pressure when hot.
most damage to an engine is done at cold start as the components are usually nearly dry of lubricant.
when you start up the pump begins to circulate oil to those components and as oil pressure is restriction to flow, a thicker oil will take longer to circulate and build pressuer (for the light to go out) than a slightly thinner oil.
the longer the oil takes to get there, the more opportunity for wear.
just to take the confusion out, a thinner but still correct oil will get there quicker and believe it or not will bulid oil pressure quicker than a thicker one.
has this helped, regards russell
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FollowupID: 317586

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:30

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 11:30
wayne, one other comment, you may want to try a lighter gear box oil, say a 75w/85 or 80w.
russell
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FollowupID: 317587

Reply By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 12:34

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 12:34
who is this person, can any one tell me
AnswerID: 55744

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Victoria) - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 12:53

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 12:53
He's a well known serial pest who goes under a number of different alias on various internet forums....do not engage...ignore
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FollowupID: 317593

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 12:54

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 12:54
thought as much, thanks mad dod
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FollowupID: 317594

Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 13:44

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 13:44
Publican,
targetting people personally though not socially acceptable, can be tolerated by those with thick skins.

targetting business in such a way as you have not only stops people being able to benifit from business people sharing information on the forum, but is also not acceptable, regardless of wether you have any actual info to back some of your claims or not.

If you feel stronglty on a point, and actually want people to listen, try posting your own thread[s] rather than hijack others.
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FollowupID: 317599

Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 15:22

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 15:22
Another alias down for Mr DA. This particular email account alias will not bother us anymore.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
---------------------------------
Always working not enough travelling!

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
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FollowupID: 317612

Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 15:30

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 15:30
Thanks David,
is it possible to delete some of his posts as well?
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FollowupID: 317614

Reply By: Rick Blaine - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 16:53

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 16:53
Russel,
I I have a 2002 T/D Jackeroo. At the moment I am using Castrol softec in the sump and change as per the manual every 10000km. Not quite 60000km on the clock. Can you make some reccomendations for a less expensive lubricant that will still do the job?
AnswerID: 55765

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 17:00

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 17:00
g'day rick,
i take it the t/d means turbo diesel, and if that is the case the specification i would recommend for your engine is a 14w/40 CF-4 or CH-4, but CH-4 will give you better protection.
stick to a well known brand, do not go for cheapies, and if you are asking of our brand, our cruiser oil is for you.
i am not sure of softex pricing so am not able to help there
regards, russell
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FollowupID: 317624

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 17:06

Saturday, Apr 24, 2004 at 17:06
sorry rick, 15w/40 not 14w/40 (typo) ooooops
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FollowupID: 317625

Follow Up By: Phil G - Sunday, Apr 25, 2004 at 18:02

Sunday, Apr 25, 2004 at 18:02
Russell,

I believe that a 5W30 is GMH's recommendation for the TD Jackaroos.

Phil
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FollowupID: 317748

Follow Up By: Rick Blaine - Sunday, Apr 25, 2004 at 18:30

Sunday, Apr 25, 2004 at 18:30
yes after checking my manwell it is... 5w 30-40-50. Starting problems occur with heavier weight oils apparently
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FollowupID: 317755

Follow Up By: Savvas - Monday, Apr 26, 2004 at 18:22

Monday, Apr 26, 2004 at 18:22
Preferred is 5W/30 or 10W/30, API CG4 or CH4 ..OR.. ACEA B1 or B3 (not B2)

Excellent reference on this issue here
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FollowupID: 317883

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004 at 21:05

Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004 at 21:05
sorry guys, have been away.
We have many customers with TD jackeroos and land rovers on cruiser oil, one of which is a 4wd l/rover hire company switching from softec to cruiser and reporting improvements over softec.
this is a commercial hire company here in the bay servicing fraser isl and a land rover specialist. name can be supplied if requested by email, not here.
TD jackeroos (many) have reported noticable improvements on cruiser over many other brands and viscosities, even from new.
Whilst we normally do not like going against the manufacturers requirements, there have been too many instances where the customers have made the decission to try cruiser and have reported back with favourable comments.
not knocking the other brands or the oem requirements, but there is a case for cruiser oil here.
regards, russell
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FollowupID: 318187

Follow Up By: Savvas - Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004 at 22:54

Wednesday, Apr 28, 2004 at 22:54
Hi Russell ... Which TD Jackaroo are you talking about though? The older 3.1TD engines don't have the same oil requirements as the newer 3.0TD. Just curious, as the newer 3.0 engines require the lighter oil to be able to drive the fuel injectors at cold start.
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FollowupID: 318226

Follow Up By: Russell from Synforce Lubricants - Thursday, Apr 29, 2004 at 19:44

Thursday, Apr 29, 2004 at 19:44
g/day savvas, not sure which engines they are running it in, will find out but probably not for a day or two.
stayed tooned, russell
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FollowupID: 318372

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