Traveling with firearms?

Bob , you have always been an idiot , so you can stop proving that here .
Kiss my serbian arse , you bleep . I hope i will see you some day in the scrub.

Not if I see you first Goran.

Jono,
I also believe guns should stay home and after travelling thousands of km's in the Australian bush I am yet to come across a situation where a gun was necessary. If you wound an animal then a heavy blunt instrument will do just as good a job. Carrying a gun in a vehicle is creating an avenue for the gun to end up in the wrong hands and a piece of wire will not stop a determined thief.
Mark

Ah, freedom is a wonderfull thing but always under threat from some nut who thinks he has the right to tell others off, for excersizing their rights. Man has the licence for the firearm he intend to carry . Providing he complies with requirements of the particular state he travels trough he has the right to do as he pleases. THAT IS CALLED FREEDOM . How many people you know Jono that shouln't be driving on the roads . Those people represent 1000 times more concern to me while am traveling rather than a rifle in someones cargo . Jono , look at the England . Gun ownership there is 95% gone but the crime is higher than ever . Laws in OZ are there to make sure that the wrong person doesn't get the licence , not to prevent people of having firearms ,so get it right.
Thanks heavens this is still a free country and the do goders like you that live under the bubble and ilusion of police protection are still a minority . Remember that cuple near Alice ? If that was you , would't you like at least a chance against this lunatic ? Think about it . Closed mind is incurable illness.

I should also add that you should be greatful that im taking the time to follow up the legal permits and such... few to many people chose to just slip the firearm under the seat wraped in a bit of rag and hope no one will notice...
i should also mention that the firearm would be bolted to the 4wd via steel cable through the action.

But Frank, you said the reason you were wanting to take the guns were to assist in case of injured animals or to shoot the odd bunny that hopped into camp. If you were going to enter a competition, why not say that. Sorry, but your reaction to someone's opinion in answer to your question was rather reactionary - makes one wonder exactly why you do want/need to take firearms. If you were going to enter a competition then the Club you belong to would be able to answer your queries. I congratulate you on seeking the information prior to taking off on your trip.

Ditzy, i was simply using the competition thing as a way of proving a point that people shouldnt jump in and abuse people like that, whether they feel that way about the topic or not!
cheers.

Dear Jono [Mr anti-gun], Don't mouth off too quickly...unless of course you're still using horse and cart. How 'bout we take your car away and ban you from using any means of modern transport, that way you can never have a guilty conscience by supporting a bigger killer in everyday life than guns ever were.

GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE

thanks for the suport rich.

I came here with a simple question in mind and end up getting my head eatin off.. not a very welcoming enviroment.. dont think ill be back in a hurry

Rubbish . Frank you are allowed to shoot on any pastoral land , if property owner gives you VERBAL permission. People have been known to get the licence for shooting on Comonwealth land in WA . Go to police station whre you live and ask for interstate firearms permit. One of those will ensure you hassle free travel . Every time you cross the state border you will be required to submit the firearm for inspection .

its not the blokes with the beer in front of them its these ill in formed gutless women and the snagy boyfreinds

Dont worry farm boy , i dont need firearms to deal with you . Just intend to slap you around a little for provoking me without any reason ....:-)
Maybe i will just let your tyres down .
Unless any of you big mouth do goders had ever been in situation where you where facing mortal danger , you really dont know what you are talking about . Gun is a mere tool and nothing more . Extension of your hand , just like baseball bat , knife etc . There is not any magic powers in the gun that make people comitt crime or shoot other people . As for me , i will keep my rifle in my Tojo for as long as i can . God forbid the need arises i will have one more chance of making it home .

Well said Cruiser.

I agree with you and the other Mike - I have travelled far and wide, mostly alone and camp lots of strange places but I have never felt the need to carry a gun. Yes, I do know how to use one and yes whilst I was born in the city I have lived outback for a long time. Yes, I have needed to put livestock and small furry animals out of their misery which I find difficult. Yes, I have been in sticky situations but I firmly believe (age is a wonderful thing because you can sometimes gain wisdom, as well as hindsight) that had there been guns (or other weapons) things could have ended badly. Now, Frank - putting aside all the emotional stuff (which I find increasingly distasteful - note my comment a few weeks back on that matter - in a question on Mt Dare) - you may have by now telephoned all the relevant authorities (sometimes a lot quicker than the internet and more personal) and have found the answers to some of the questions, e.g. permits. Is this so? What were the answers please? As for the emotional and personal - is Goran for real? If so, could someone let me know if ever he's coming out my way - I think he needs counselling. As for guns - becomes a moral issue. Will I take one and take my chance, or will I not? Happy Trails, Mike - check Mal's reply in Coolin's question on Simpson Track condition. Oh yes, Mike - the Sioux and Comanche are very friendly around the Stony Desert these days so don't worry about the Colt. Come on everyone ease up on the rubbish - this Forum is about the passing of information.

PS. Using the English couple as an example (yours): they stopped, quite innocently, to help someone they thought was in trouble. Are you really suggesting that any time you saw someone in that (possible) predicament, you would pull out your gun until you were sure things were safe? Like something from a cowboy movie? Seems like a different kind of Lala-land to me.

Cruiser,thats not what I said nor what I am suggesting, if thats your interpretation there is nothing that I can say to convince you otherwise as it appears that you have made up your mind. We live in a democracy where everybody is allowed their freedom to do and say as they wish as long as it legal to do so. Cheers Rob

Again, I respect your rights to your opinion and to be able to carry a firearm, legally. But these are your words: "If I choose to take one, I do so for one reason and one reason alone, not to kill injured animals, that I do with a knife, but for personal protection mine and that of my family. If confronted by a nutter where the situation would be life threatening I will not be the victim." Very difficult to interpret any other way. I would suggest that if you were ever in such a situation and shot someone, these words might well be held against you in a court of law. The words 'intent' and 'pre-meditated' don't seem too outrageous if a clever lawyer or prosecutor were involved. Far from having a closed mind, I am simply inviting you to consider the ramifications of your language.
Cheers, Cruiser

Cruiser,If the situation arose, where the life of your wife/partner/friend or kids was theatened and action was taken that averted this, I personally couldnt care less of the legal implications ("life threatening" rather than intent or premeditated) because (and agian this is my opinion) I would rather go home to my family and worry about the legal consequences than just have pictures and memories of what was. By the way this opinion is based on personel experience of an unpleasent incident were a very good friend is no longer here due to the actions of a nutter, a situation which could have happened to anybody travelling. Unfortunately we do not have crystal balls where you can predict the future.Cheers Rob

Macca, a sensible answer - exactly what the question (the original question) required. Maybe someone from the other states will come up with the rules and regulations. Thank you.

Mark
you make about four excellent points (USA is gun crazy, gun incidents with nutters are rarer than car fatalities, most situations are caused by irresponsible use of guns, faced with an armed person a gun isn't going to help you anyway). It seems it is irrational fear which drives people to want to carry guns, yet it is the carrying of guns by others that creates the situation they fear. Unchecked, we would end up with the same environment as the USA. Instead of the bush being a safe and friendly place to be, it would be like the 'wild west'. I suspect that most interest in carrying guns on bush trips comes from those who do not have a legitimate reason for having a gun but see the trip to the bush as a good opportunity to get a few shots off. It isn't.

Mark your comment about America having a gun problem, I think you have avoided mentioning
what their real problem is -- not the number of guns but the type of guns they own such as hand guns.
Also you mention "Since the gun laws were introduced in Australia from July 96 there has been a decrease
of almost 30% in the number of homicides caused by firearms" where did you get that figure from as I must admit I find
that very hard to believe especially considering that the majority of all shooting's involve illegal firearms anyway.
As to your one personal threatening incident do you really think that this is the sort of situation people are referring to
when they comment that a firearm is handy to have for protection, to even suggest that you would confront drunken
yobo's with a gun is totally irresponsible, your statement " if you had a gun you could have confronted them! I'm sure
they would have been scared and put there's away", you mean to say that without a gun you were too scared to approach
them and ask them to stop shooting but if you had a gun you would have confronted them it ?? - Mark this explains why you are
afraid of firearms and I certainly agree that YOU SHOULD NOT own a firearm but please don't put all gun owners in the same
basket as you - I certainly don't see having a firearm with me as a means of boosting my confidence nor do I lack common
sense.

Robert,
Thanks for your reply. The figures I quoted were official and published in the
Australian Crime - Facts and Figures 1999. Australian Institute of Criminology. Canberra, Oct 1999.
With regard to my own experience of course I would not of approached these guys with or without a gun I was merely getting a point across that having my own gun for protection would not have made me feel any more secure in this particular situation. Perhaps I should have made myself clearer as in my statement " Perhaps if I had a gun I could of confronted them ! I'm sure they would have been scared then and put theres away??" my point was yeah right! sure they would have backed down and left it at that. With firearms involved things can turn nasty and get quickly out of hand was my point. Anyway you are entitled to your opinion, but I am sticking to my belief that the general public carrying guns around for protection will only make matters worse. Let the facts & figures speak for themselves.

Yeah , Mark . Let's take all legal firearms from law obiding citizens . That way the only people with guns will be the criminals . Let's pass the new laws forbiding traveling with firearms to let any scumbag and lunatic know that travelers are easy and fair game . While we are at it , we could also forbid the use of self defence inside your home too . What is the diference , right ? We should advise people not to resist crime themselves and submit to murder , rape and robbery . What a society we would have than . Pure heaven for criminals . Maybe it already is that .

Yeah , Mark . Let's take all legal firearms from law obiding citizens . That way the only people with guns will be the criminals . Let's pass the new laws forbiding traveling with firearms to let any scumbag and lunatic know that travelers are easy and fair game . While we are at it , we could also forbid the use of self defence inside your home too . What is the diference , right ? We should advise people not to resist crime themselves and submit to murder , rape and robbery . What a society we would have than . Pure heaven for criminals . Maybe it already is that .

Mark with statistics unless all the facts are presented then you can get a distorted view , it can be a case
of displaying the statistics to show only what you want and hiding the whole story, for instance the current affair
program Today Tonight produced a story about 4wd's being unsafe on the roads quoting the following statistic from the
Australian Transport Safety Bureau - "There was an 85 per cent increase in 4WD crash fatalities from 1990 to 1998"
Now I'm sure Mark you would agree there are a lot of other facts not mentioned and without all the other facts this one
statistic is rather misleading. This is why I am sceptical about the statistics you quote from the Australian Crime -Facts
and Figures, especially as what I have already stated in an earlier posting - The vast majority of shootings reported in
the news involve ILLEGAL FIREARMS.
Mark no one here is advocating the general public arming themselves, that's silly what we are talking about are those who
wish to own firearms being able to use them for what they were intended without being persecuted, much the same as 4wd
owners want to be able to own and use a 4wd without being harassed by the small car crowd who don't like
4wd's or big cars and think everyone should have to drive the same as them.
Yes I agree with you that a firearm produced in an argument could lead to a nasty situation which is why I pointed out
in my first reply to you it is totally irresponsible even suggesting that you would produce a firearm in an argument etc, and
I'm sure you are well aware that no one here is even suggesting that's what they have a firearm for.
As to having a firearm for protection in isolated places lets look at the following scenario:
Your driving along a road and for whatever reason a guy overtakes you and forces you to swerve off the road, your vehicle
crashes and isn't drivable - your stuck!, the other driver stops, get outs of his vehicle with an illegal firearm and fires at you and
your family.
Tell me Mark what would you prefer to be thinking "Thank God I don't have a firearm - they have all been banned" or "
Thank God I have my firearm with me", I know what situation I would prefer to be in, and no this is not a far fetched
situation, as someone already pointed out you would have to be in la la land if you think this could never happen.
Now I know that your going to respond with that you should stay home if your a person who considers what could possibly
happen but the sad fact is these days your no safer at home anyway, and yes it is a real possibility that you could get killed in
a car accident which is why I would never drive the small dinky cars some people drive these day, I don't have the attitude
"IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN TO ME". Finally yes Mark I am entitled to my opinion and yes I respect yours - the main point is that
something shouldn't be banned just because I don't like it mentality , it should be based on common sense , it's the same with
those who wish to ban 4wd's unless they have any valid reasons, then 4wd's shouldn't be banned just because they don't like
them.

Robert,
With the scenario you made up I might well be wishing I had some means of defending myself against a gunman, I also agree that I would be living in La La land if I thought this could never happen. But I choose not to carry a gun for protection for reasons that I could go on all night about,I could also make up many scenario's of could happen if a gun was stolen and ended up in the wrong hands. You mention "no one here is advocating the general public arming themselves" well isn't this is what we are going on about or should you perhaps have preferential treatment and not be treated as general public. I can see your point that if only you are carrying the gun then its not so much an issue as its only one gun after all and it won't change things too much eh! well i'm afraid its this kind of narrow minded thinking that creates the problems in the first place. The reasons laws are made is so all abide by them without exception, the very reason there is a law against carrying guns for self protection in Australia. In a nutshell my argument is the more guns in circulation the higher the chance they will fall in the wrong hands or be used in heat of the moment disputes. I have nothing against licensed gun's being used for the bona fide reasons, in fact I have done a bit of pistol target shooting myself.

Mark, yes I agree a firearm could be stolen, same as your car could be stolen and used to kill someone , but more to the point
those who you referred to as "the wrong hands" are the people who use illegal firearms , I have mentioned several
times now that the criminal element are using illegal firearms, a point you obviously don't won't to acknowledge, I wonder why?
Also the police have had a number of firearms stolen from them in the past, that being pistols, the worst kind of firearm a criminal
could have , do you also want the police not to have firearms?
The big question really is what have the tougher guns laws achieved? 1. have they stopped criminals from having handguns,
automatic high powered rifles etc - NO, 2. have they brought about a decrease in murders - No, as they now just use knifes if
they don't use a firearm, 3. are they creating a situation where only the criminals have guns and the honest citizens don't - YES.
Mark your quite aware no one here is advocating the general public should arm themselves with a firearms ( I did not say that
you should purchase a firearm for protection, I said that you are safer with a firearm) we are merely defending our right
and the general public's right to decide for themselves whether they wish to own a firearm or not, that's not
wanting preferential treatment, that's not wanting dictatorship.
In terms of the heat of the moment disputes( I believe in most cases if an illegal firearm isn't used they they use knifes just a
effectively in these situations anyway),
the most sensible guns law we should have is that in domestic disputes , divorce etc that
any firearms owned by either party should be confiscated by the police and held by them for say 6 months to a year and
not returned if the situation is still hostile, I could be wrong but I know in Victoria the police haven't done this in the past and I'm not aware
they do this now.

Mark it really appears to me that those who wish to ban firearms are doing so simply because shooting is something they are
not interested in, if you are going to use the argument that firearms should be banned because it will save lives then tell me
how many people are killed by drink driving - a lot more than by firearms owned by ordinary citizens isn't it , so why
aren't those who are anti gun not also pushing for banning alcohol??, why aren't they pushing to ban the dangerously small
cars being sold to the public??, why aren't they complaining about it being legal to sell tobacco??
Would it be because they are like the mentality of the anti 4wd crowd - ban it because it is something their not interested
in. I wonder who is really the narrow minded one!
More relevant to what this forum is really about (travelling Australia etc) in terms of a equipment to take I think a firearm is
very useful item to carry as it makes it far more safer and humane to destroy injured animals, allows one to shoot vermin
such as foxes and feral cats, shoot rabbits for a meal and finally provides some protection.

Mark - Something I forgot to mention and suprised no one else has is that in Sweden Gun ownership is a mandatory and
Gun crime in Switzerland is virtually non-existent. I wonder what your thoughts are on this.
Cheers Robert

Robert,

I think you are still getting the wrong impression. If you read through my previous post you will find that I am not opposed to guns in general just against people carrying them around for protection as they do in the US. You keep mentioning that only illegal firearms cause the problems, well maybe, but my point is if people are leaving guns lying around in cars etc and they end up getting stolen and used by a crim then they are being used illegaly.
On your point on guns being mandatory in Sweden, I asked my wife who is Swedish and although her folks have a shotgun for their farm she has never heard of them being mandatory, and was not forced to have one in her 29 years of living there.
Anyway, I think we have both got our points across and obviously we have differing opinions, for me i'm happy with the current gun laws and will continue to travel without a gun. You will no doubt continue to do as you have always done.

Cheers

Sorry Goran, I'm not even going to bother replying to your post (when the hell did they let you out)

Mark you stated in an earlier posting "Carrying a gun in a vehicle is creating an avenue for the gun to end up in the wrong hands"
and now you state "I am not opposed to guns in general" - that's a bit ambiguous! tell me how can you use a gun for shooting etc
and not carry it in the car. But now I think in an effort to support your opinion you make the statement "if people are leaving guns
lying around in cars etc", your trying to make it seem that people who carry firearms are casually leaving a firearms lying in full
view for everyone to see and steal - You know quite well nobody does this, that would be as
irresponsible as saying you would approach drunken yobo's with a firearm.
You also stated " end up getting stolen and used by a crim then they are being used illegally" - yes of course if your using a stolen
legal firearm you would be breaking the law, no one would dispute that - what's your point?? , the point I make is that criminals
aren't using stolen legal firearms from citizens, they are using illegal (banned) firearms such as handguns etc, that's a fact not
a maybe. I have responded to all your points, but you have avoided responding to a number of my points - the FACT that
the vast majority of firearm related crime is committed using illegal (banned firearms) not stolen firearms
and it would be a very rare event indeed that a camper/traveller has a firearm stolen and it is used to kill someone, so what is
stopping campers/travellers from having a firearm with them going to achieve??, what about the police, they have handguns stolen do you
want the police unarmed?? and yet I assume your happy that people can buy alcohol and smoke tobacco?? which kill more
people per year than legal firearms or do you also want alcohol severely controlled as well?? and don't tell me that family of
someone killed by a drunk driver aren't as upset/shocked/angry as someone killed by a gun!
Perhaps Mark and to all the others against firearms that we haven't met any nasty situations when travelling/camping because
the criminals/nutters don't know if we are one of the public who has a firearm or not, perhaps this explains the NT couple being
attacked , after all who is the least likely not to be armed travelling the outback - Overseas tourists????
Mark the main difference between your opinion and mine is your opinion is about telling others what they should or shouldn't be
allowed to do based purely on your belief not based any undeniable evidence and my opinion is that the individual should be
allowed to decide for themselves whether they wish to take a firearm with them when travelling/camping in view of there being
no undeniable evidence that supports we would all be better off with firearms banned or tougher laws imposed, I would say one
opinion is called Freedom and other one is called Dictatorship.

In Sweden Gun ownership is apparently mandatory for all adult males up 50 - 55 years of age, I suggest you and others
read http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3ae771eb4adb.htm and http://www.wa.gov.au/cof/guncntrl/index.html it makes for
some interesting reading on gun control.

Cheers
Robert