Great Scott where did the weight come from.???

Submitted: Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 19:54
ThreadID: 131069 Views:2865 Replies:8 FollowUps:35
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While in Townsville decided to put the BT50 over the weigh bridge to get an idea of kerb mass with the minister of everything and myself in it. Came back as 2900 kgs.What the.......and a rear axle weight of 1480 kgs. Add TBM of 270 kgs and that's the GMV taken care off .I will be able to put two stubbies and a bottle of wine in fridge full stop. The lesson learned be very thoughtfull of the weight of extras you fit.So where is Jenny Craig's number Mickb
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Reply By: Member Ray M (QLD) - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 20:45

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 20:45
Hi M&N's, hope you haven't been eating too many M&M's, sorry the demon made me say it ??
Did you use the weighbridge in Garbutt at the scrap metal dealer? I had my tinny weighed there at a cost of $30 plus gst, yeah I know, ripped off right? Didn't find out the cost till it was too late.
Anyway the tinny came in at exactly 100 kg, so then had it weighed at another weighbridge
(At no cost) and guess what? came in at 93 kg, go figure.
Went back to first weighbridge only to be told what I was expecting. Other weighbridge was obviously faulty as theirs was spot on, yeah right
Won't be selling scrap there any time soon.
Cheers and good luck with your problem
Ray
AnswerID: 593531

Follow Up By: GREG T11 - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 21:34

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 21:34
If I read your post correctly you are saying the scrap yard is saying 100 kg and elsewhere 93 kg ?
Isn't to your advantage if you take 100 kg of scrap that actually weighs 93 kg to them ?
Or have I misread it .
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Follow Up By: Member - M&N's - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 21:50

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 21:50
Yes thanks for that Ray no M&Ms but happy hours have done some damage. The Jenny Craig I am seeking has a gas axe in one hand and a grinder in the other Mickb
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FollowupID: 861744

Follow Up By: Member Ray M (QLD) - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 21:52

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 21:52
Hi Greg, no mate wasn't selling the boat, just wanted to know the weight that was going on my roof rack.
Sorry for the confusion
Cheers
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FollowupID: 861745

Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:01

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:01
Yes Greg, you're right.
The recycle with the higher reading on the tinnie weight would be the place to sell your scrap :)

Here in SA my local scrap metal place will weigh your rig for nil, but then I do go there reasonably often with a load of bottles cans for recycling.
I just ask them when ready to roll out of I can get a print out from the weighbridge and they have obliged each time.

I have done this twice now, once near empty, and once before heading up for the desert at near full load.
My results were really pleasing, guess I've been careful not to go too heavy with the mods, I am around 300kg under GVM with 205lt of fuel, 90lt water, and all food / sundries for camping out for a week, me and the missus.
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Follow Up By: Hewy54 - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:51

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:51
As far as a weighbridge at a scrap metal yard, it does not matter if their scales are out as they do it by difference before and after.
However this does not help for those of us wanting a vehicle weight.
I take mine to the local garden supplies centre, not sure if it is the exact weight though.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 23:10

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 23:10
Most of the bridges around here are only calibrated to the nearest 20 kg. Sounds like your 100 kg reading was made with one of those. 100 kg means within the range of 90 - 110 kg. That sounds accurate to me.


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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 00:04

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 00:04
Scrap dealers are the biggest crooks around. NEVER take a scrap dealers weight figures for an honest figure.
I took in a 200L drum of heavy steel scrap to the local crooks in Armadale, W.A., last week - it weighed close on 400kgs - yet they insisted it was only 120kg.
The weighbridge office is barred and bolted, they talk to you through a slot - and you don't get to see the actual weighbridge readout, the scales readout is hidden.
I really should report them to the Dept that handles trade weight accuracy.
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Reply By: GREG T11 - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 21:44

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 21:44
Even if they are reading high that's an enormous amount of weight over the rear, and + TBW you are kidding. Lucky it's not a Triton , you would have bent in half a long time ago .
AnswerID: 593532

Follow Up By: Kazza055 - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:03

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:03
I went through all the calculations before I signed up for my D-Max and when fully loaded for touring I was about 10kg over the allowed GVM.

Simple answer was to have an ARB GVM upgrade that added another 270kg.

Luckily our van has an ATM of 2500kg so I have spare capacity - remember that the GVM upgrade does not change the GCM.
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:16

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:16
Mostly if you have the airbags, they take a spread load over 2 points (leaf mounts) and focus it on one point, right over the diff.

Of course some 4WDs have the axle a lot further forward than others, I think if you look at pics you will see that Tritons are one of the worst, while the Rangers one of the best (talking dual cabs here, not so much a problem with single cabs and perhaps space cabs).

There's a ot of post re this on 4x4 Earth, one such one here . . .Don't overload your Triton

And this one, with pics on my post # 12 . . .
Tray touring setups

You can see the ones that will potentially be a problem, and some already bent.

Big tray ons fitted to the back are a real issue, and many even extend the rear chassis to fit the larger ones !!
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:20

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:20
Kazza, did ARB actually get it engineered, and the GVM on the compliance plate updated ?
If not, what you got was probably a lift with heavier springs for 'constant load', which is what I got with my upgrade (300kg constant).
It doesn't mean I can go over my GVM by 300kg.

Of course you have to be aware other limiting regulations, have seen reference to axle loads (front and rear).
I assume if you split the load fairly well and keep as much weight forward of the axle as possible, then keep under GVM, axle loads wouldn't be a problem.
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:28

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:28
"remember that the GVM upgrade does not change the GCM."
That seems to be the rule for light vehicles, but not for heavier vehicles....
The OKA GVM was 5,500kg and is now 6,600kg.
The GCM was 7,000kg and is now 9,000kg.
Read and weep :)

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 Motorhome

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FollowupID: 861752

Follow Up By: Kazza055 - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 00:16

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 00:16
Les, it was the first thing done and yes they did replace the plate.
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 00:47

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 00:47
Kazza, I've read a coupe of posts where people have said that (ARB mods for GVM increase) so that's good to know it can be done in a moderate way like that.

What's your GVM now then including the 270kg upgrade ??

You just need to weigh our vehicle then add tow ball weight to get trip GVM is that right ?
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Follow Up By: GarryR - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 07:00

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 07:00
I have an upgraded suspension on my hilux but, ARB will not supply a GMV upgrade compliance plate. It was stated that I will need to go to an engineer to get a report and test done prior to any compliance is issued by Vicroads. Please state if you received your compliance certificate for the upgrade through ARB, as here in Vic they said they do not issue certs for Vicroads in suspension upgrades. And that statement came from ARB HQ. on inquiry.
location - Warragul -Victoria
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 08:05

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 08:05
GarryR

It appears that ARB offer GVM upgrades for new unregistered vehicles, but ask you discuss GVM upgrades to vehicles already registered with them.

The reason for this is that once registered it comes under the jurisdiction of the State it is being registered in.

However, this should not be a problem as ARB will have needed to make its GVM upgrade kit ADR compliant and this will have involved substantial testing on each vehicle it does GVM upgrades for. You will just need to get it certified.

I did a post-registration GVM upgrade with Lovell’s and it was no problem having it certified in NSW. The work was undertaken by a Lovell’s dealer authorised to do Lovell’s GVM upgrades.

There are a couple of advantages doing GVM upgrades pre-initial registration; it means the compliance plate will be issued with the upgraded GVM and will not require re-certification if the vehicle is registered in another State at some point of time, plus it will save the cost of the engineer’s certification (around $300/400).

Also worth noting that GVM upgrades need to be done by someone authorised to do GVM upgrades. For example, all ARB workshops will be able to do suspension upgrades, however they may not be able to undertake a GVM upgrade – it is possible this is where the problem lies in them issuing the compliance plate.

Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: Jackolux - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 08:24

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 08:24
I had a ARB GVM upgrade done on my Dmax before first rego , they add another compliance sticker my GVM is a increase of 270kg - 2950kg std to 3220kg - GCM is not increased .
ARB do not do a GVM upgrade for the just superseded 3lt D4D Hilux .
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 08:42

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 08:42
Hi Jackolux

It is interesting ARB added another sticker for the upgrade, and points towards it being done post-registration, but understand you have said it was pre-registration (I’m not disputing what you think you have)…

It might be worth checking as when it is done pre-initial registration the compliance plate is issued with the upgraded GVM in lieu of the standard GVM and no need for a supplementary sticker or plate.

However, once a compliant plate is issued it cannot be amended in any way, and is the reason why a supplementary plate or sticker is issued, and this is done under the regulations of the State it is registered in.

Also, another factor in play might be that not all GVM upgrade kits can be fitted pre-registration and the compliance plate issued with the higher GVM, and can only be done post-registration.

Foods for thought, Baz – The Landy
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FollowupID: 861774

Follow Up By: Kazza055 - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:06

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:06
As I stated my GVM upgrade was the very first thing that was done to the vehicle. The reason that I see is because the vehicle is standard straight from the factory, ARB already have all the details and engineering done.

Being done pre registration, they replace the plate with a new one and then the vehicle goes onto a national register as part of the registration.

Having it done post rego, they need to re-do the engineering to take into account any accessories you have already added, the plate should then be replaced but instead of it going onto the national database it only goes onto the state one and if you move interstate it will need to be re-certified for that state as well.

As stated above, my GVM went from 2950kg std to 3220kg.
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FollowupID: 861777

Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:20

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:20
3220 is good to have, especially if you have bullbar, and other heavy items.
We just have the front nudge bar to hold spot, aerial, sand flag attachment, and the GVM of 3019 on the (PK) Ranger standard, and fully loaded we are at 2650, empty load (with ~ 10lt of fuel) 2300.
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FollowupID: 861779

Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:35

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:35
Hi Kaz

When it is done pre-registration there is only one plate issued, and it is with the upgraded GVM, once a plate is issued it cannot be amended or replaced, it can only have a supplementary one added.

Having it done post registration means it must be certified under the State registration requirements of the State it is being registered in. The original compliance plate is not replaced, but a supplementary one added with the new GVM. Prior to the supplementary plate being issued it will need to be signed-off by an authorised engineer that it has been fitted in accordance with the secondary manufacturer’s approval.

As such they don’t need to re-do the engineering, but the engineer will need to ensure the vehicle and any modifications comply with the State registration requirements.

For example, I had a Lovell’s post registration GVM upgrade of 3,900kg, however when I fitted the Tru-Tracker rear wheel track modification it was only approved for the vehicle up to 3,780kg, so to comply I simply down-rated the GVM.

And as indicated, post-registration GVM upgrades would need to be recertified if the vehicle is registered in another State. However, in principal this should not be a problem as ARB, Lovell’s, and all the major suppliers have Federal ADR approvals for their GVM kits.

It is an interesting topic I researched fully prior to upgrading mine, needless to say there are many overweight vehicles out there that might benefit from an upgrade.

Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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FollowupID: 861780

Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:52

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:52
"It might be worth checking as when it is done pre-initial registration the compliance plate is issued with the upgraded GVM in lieu of the standard GVM and no need for a supplementary sticker or plate."

I erred on this, the manufacturer fits a compliance plate, and pre-registrastion upgrades have a Secondary Stage of Manufacture compliance plater fitted!

Apologies for confusion...

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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FollowupID: 861798

Follow Up By: Kazza055 - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 16:19

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 16:19
Baz wrote - "It might be worth checking as when it is done pre-initial registration the compliance plate is issued with the upgraded GVM in lieu of the standard GVM and no need for a supplementary sticker or plate."

The ARB plate on mine is stuck on top of the original Isuzu plate and replaces the original.

The main thing I try to get across is getting it done pre rego could save you a lot of hasles later on especially if you end up moving to another state.

Be smart and calculate your end weights before you make the purchase. My dealer, Major Motors, picked up on the need to do the GVM upgrade about the same time I realised that I would probably need it, he provided me a IUA spreadsheet to use but I had already done my homework.

I had all my accessories except 2 solar panels, fitted pre rego as part of the initial purchase and all the prices for these addons were at very good and competitive rates, beside I did not need to stuff around running here there and everywhere getting these jobs done later.
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FollowupID: 861818

Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 18:55

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 18:55
Ah, Baz did also say in the same post...

"I erred on this, the manufacturer fits a compliance plate, and pre-registration upgrades have a Secondary Stage of Manufacture compliance plater fitted!

Apologies for confusion..."

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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FollowupID: 861832

Reply By: Member - backtracks - Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:03

Monday, Dec 07, 2015 at 22:03
So, what's the compliance plate mass ? Just curious how much more your extras weigh.
AnswerID: 593533

Reply By: Ron N - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 00:11

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 00:11
I can remember some farmer mates taking their traytop HJ47 up the CSR some 35 yrs ago.
They threw in everything they thought they'd need (they were going in a 7 vehicle convoy) - and when they weighed the HJ47 on the local grain bin scales, it tipped the scales at 3500kgs!

They had to go home and sort out exactly what was important and needed, and what wasn't.
They finally managed to shave about half a tonne off the gross weight, but they were still heavy.

At the end of the day, the only trouble they ran into, was one of the 'Cruisers broke a tie-rod end - and that was the only part that none of them carried!
One of them had to do a rush trip into Newman to source the tie-rod end, so they could keep going!

Cheers, Ron.
AnswerID: 593537

Reply By: vk1dx - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 07:57

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 07:57
Yep Weighed ours when we first got it and with eight people in it and a small carry on bag we were way over gvm.

Now add the front and rear steel bars, side steps, roof rack + RTT and the drawer system and the long range tank. Way over.

So we have upped the GVM. All good with plenty of leeway.

Haven't been pulled over but have seen others.

It's heavy, I agree, but it still takes us where we want to go. And more importantly brings us home.

Phil
AnswerID: 593546

Follow Up By: JR - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:53

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:53
Modifying GVM post registration is now very difficult. The engineer and state authority can demand sweve testing and gets very expensive quickly. Used to be much simpler.
Will also find only GVM kits for a small range of vehicles. All pre rego I think.

With light duty utes, especially dual cabs, look closely at weight distribution not just GVM. Even though you may have 800kg spare it cant go all in the tray. Must be evenly spread, meaning forward of rear axle and in a dual cab thats placing lots of weight, like 240kg, (3x 80kg) or more, in the back seats.
That leaves around 550kg for standard ute back........around half what many expect for 1T capacity ute. Thats with std ute tub, placing weight further back in longer tray reduces load further.
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FollowupID: 861781

Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:11

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:11
..
Yes, one reason I really like the space cabs with suicide doors, you can put fridge and other storage in the cabin, helps keep some weight forward and the fridge less stressed to boot :)
The whole lot opens up at camp for really easy access.

We have rear bench removed in our crew cab, and this set up fro the fridge, Arkpak, and informal storage on the floors etc, but really want to set up better use of the rear cab space sometime . . . just that so far it hasn't really been a problem, so I guess if it's not broke . . .

Space cabs have about another foot of tub / tray, and less wasted space in the cabin too, so if I ever upgrade, will be looking at these more (Ranger, Dmax, not sure about other makes out there now).
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FollowupID: 861787

Follow Up By: JR - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:22

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:22
Some extra cabs used to have longer wheel base too.
No idea why they then used short one for dual cab
Hiluxes used to do this, not sure in current model
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FollowupID: 861790

Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:24

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:24
..
JR, I'd say turning circle for sure mate, bad enough as they are most of them.
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FollowupID: 861792

Follow Up By: JR - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:49

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:49
Yep
Real issue is the promotion of a load carrying ute as a family car - really cant do both very well without compromise.
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FollowupID: 861796

Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 16:22

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 16:22
I feel the load carrying capacity of the utility is far better (in volume and weight) as say a family wagon though.

I just had a look at the 2015 Ranger and Everest specs.
Was surprised to see the Ranger GVM only 100kg more (at 3200), BUT the payload for the Everest wagon is 605kg to 730kg depending on model, the Ranger 925kg to 1305kg.

Of course it's the crew cab problem mostly, and really the design of having an axle further forward of the centre tub / tray location, much further forward in some cases.
This is then especially complicated when air bags are fitted taking the spread load at the front and especially the read leaf mounts, and placing it at one point over the axle.

The forces on the chassis are increase tremendously.
Throw in some desert dunes stresses and it's a bend chassis waiting to happen.
Heavy items loaded up the rear would also add to the problem, and when loading heavy stuff most would put close to the access point, the tailgate, for ease of loading / unloading.

Having my Dolium diesel and water tanks are at the front of the tub, balances out the weight of the rear loading better.
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FollowupID: 861820

Reply By: Ron N - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 10:44

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 10:44
I think it pays to find out about how the Road Vehicle Certification System works in Australia, before one makes statements that are incorrect.
The original vehicle manufacturer attaches a vehicle compliance plate at the factory, when the vehicle is being produced in numbers.

This compliance plate must never be removed from that vehicle. This is because of the amount of work the manufacturer has gone to, to ensure their vehicle meets all certification requirements to be registered in Australia.

Any engineering work done on the vehicle that substantially alters the vehicles original specifications, must include an ADDITIONAL compliance plate, outlining any alterations and changes to specifications.

The original compliance plate is never replaced, because the original vehicle has met the certification requirements, and any engineering alterations are merely modifications to the original certification.

To remove a compliance plate from any vehicle is an offence, and to be in possession of any compliance plates, without owning the vehicle that they fit, is also an offence.

Individually-built vehicles have no requirement for a compliance plate, they are engineer-certified to meet registration requirements under the laws applying to low-volume construction.

Vehicle Compliance applications are done online, using a standard form, identical to a paper form.
These online forms can have alterations made to the "standard data", if the person applying believes the standard data is incorrect.
All of these applications are individually examined and reviewed, and approvals given where all certification criteria are met.
All states are notified of certification approvals that have been given, when a compliance plate is issued.

Interestingly, there is a move over to simple decals for compliance plates today, instead of the aluminium tag we normally recognise.
My missus' 2012 Camry has no aluminium compliance tag, it merely has a compliance decal on the passenger door frame, and the VIN serial number is stamped into the floor under the drivers seat.
There is no vehicle information whatsoever in or around the engine bay of the Camry, as we would normally expect to see.

Here is all the relevant information relating to the Road Vehicle Certification System.

Vehicle Certification in Australia

RVCS - About Us

Certification form process
AnswerID: 593552

Follow Up By: JR - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 10:55

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 10:55
Correct, my old engineered GVM upgrade on GU Patrol is simply a letter with details sent to RTA. Now appears on rego docs

Pretty sure it cant happen like this anymore.
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FollowupID: 861786

Reply By: Jackolux - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 10:59

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 10:59
G'day Baz the Landy

You had me doubting my memory so I just double checked , the GVM was definitely done pre rego , well it was supposed to be , unless the bloody dealer rego the Ute first , I'm sure they didn't do that , but will check , anyway both plates are there ,

ARB Plate on firewall


Original Isuzu plate under bonnet just above Right Head light
AnswerID: 593554

Follow Up By: The Landy - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:50

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:50
Hi Jackolux

Yes, my error, that is a secondary stage of manufacture plate added to the vehicle, which is done pre-registration and co-located with the original fitted by the manufacturer– apologies for sending you into a tailspin!

Cheers, Baz
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FollowupID: 861797

Follow Up By: Kazza055 - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 16:26

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 16:26
Same as mine Jackolux except mine has been placed on top of the original.
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FollowupID: 861822

Follow Up By: Jackolux - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 17:20

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 17:20
Yep Kazza that little plate means we can now legally overload out Utes by 270kg .
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FollowupID: 861824

Follow Up By: Kazza055 - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 18:26

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 18:26
Nah, what it means to me is that the weight I can tow has been reduced by 270kg. ;=))

Our van has an ATM of 2500kg and with the truck loaded to around 3,000kg I am about 4-500 under the GCM.

To try towing 3500kg with any of these current dual cabs is pushing the envelope.
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FollowupID: 861829

Follow Up By: Jackolux - Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 18:45

Tuesday, Dec 08, 2015 at 18:45
I only tow a Tvan it went 1120kg on the bridge , l reckon that enough behind a Dmax .
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FollowupID: 861831

Reply By: Alloy c/t - Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 17:01

Wednesday, Dec 09, 2015 at 17:01
The problem is of course one of the major bug bears of vehicle manufacturing , most of our vehicles today are made in Asia where general body size / weight is less than in Australia , shove 5 average Australian blokes into a dual cab and you've hit the payload allowed , put 5 average weighted Asians in the same vehicle and you still have payload available , time we stopped the Australian obesity epidemic ...
AnswerID: 593630

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