A battery suppliers spiel on Lithium batteries

Submitted: Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 09:44
ThreadID: 131692 Views:2414 Replies:8 FollowUps:14
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http://www.allpurposebatteries.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=333

Suppliers web site has this


"10x Longer Life",

and then this down a few paragraphs:

The expected life in most applications is 5 times that of lead acid batteries.

what is it, 10 times or 5 times???

I put it to all that the 10X is a furphy! and is there to get one sucked in
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Reply By: pop2jocem - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 11:18

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 11:18
In addition to the length of life span I would be asking the supplier whether the maximum charge rate is 100 amps or 75 amps and is the weight 50% lighter than an equivilant LA battery or 70%.
Also something in the dimensional advantages don't seem to quite add up.

Maybe a slightly over enthusiastic advertising composer or something in the Mandarin to English translation?? (;-))

Cheers
Pop
AnswerID: 596690

Follow Up By: Member - Witi Repartee - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 11:30

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 11:30
I don't know the answer to your query....however it's another problem we, along with anyone else considering buying a new van has to face. Do we go with the cheaper tried and true AGM batteries...or do we look ahead to resale in years to come and try and future proof ourselves with state of the art lithium batteries and management system? If we look at the rate of improvement of various technologies, such as LED lighting over neon and halogen, powerful tablets encroaching on laptop territory, mobile phone technology etc, will the dominant lead acid battery still be popular or seen as antiquated, heavy and inferior? Wish I knew!
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Follow Up By: Malcom M - Thursday, Mar 03, 2016 at 07:46

Thursday, Mar 03, 2016 at 07:46
Witi, I think its rather foolish to base your purchasing decision on the resale value in the future.
I'd be buying the batteries as a disposable & discardable item and buy what best fits the requirements.
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Reply By: JR - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 14:33

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 14:33
Lithium batteries are two types - big differences
LiFePO4 - a great thing, safe, light, excellent performance but horribly expensive and mostly need special charger to run properly and last. I believe these life expectancy is based on cycles and yes it has big advantages over L/A types in terms of life.
LiPO - used widely in phones, remote control gear, can catch fire and explode, needs special chargers, great performance, price has dropped a lot but still exxy. Mostly in smaller sizes

AGM still often the best bet. Cheap(er) and heavy.
AnswerID: 596697

Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 14:53

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 14:53
But my point is..is it 10 yrs or 5 yrs times the life over LA?

the link above clearly says two (2) different things!!
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 15:16

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 15:16
I don't think anyone will prove they have ANY extra lifespan over a wet cell or AGM battery.

They may.....but they haven't been out long enough for any meaningful figures to surface yet.

From some early research by USA motorhome users of these batteries, they do not like heat and lifespan ( or reduced performance over a 2 to 3 yr lifespan ) doesn't appear to be any better than AGM's !!

The added amp/hour usability is one bonus though..

A good AGM will have approx 1000 to 5000 recharge cycles ( depending on discharge rates ), so 5000 to 25000 is a tall order from a lithium ??
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Follow Up By: Juzzy - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 16:56

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 16:56
Are the Tesla SolarWalls (and similar from other suppliers), the LiFePO4 type then?

(sorry, off-topic from OP)
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Reply By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 15:09

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 15:09
'
From the referenced website.............
"10 years (Li)" for $1500 = $150 per year.
Compared to say 3 years (AGM) for $300 = $100 per year.
Am I missing something here?
Cheers
Allan

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AnswerID: 596698

Follow Up By: skulldug - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 16:18

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 16:18
Allan,

If all other variables were equal, you would have a valid point but I am sure you know that.

Old techos sometimes take a long time to die out don't they ? :)

Skull
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 18:43

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 18:43
'
I hope so Skull, I sure hope so!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member No 1 - Sunday, Feb 28, 2016 at 09:30

Sunday, Feb 28, 2016 at 09:30
so we now have some other info not printed in the original link, but which we must refer to ??

The original link says the following

(1) "10x Longer Life,"

and then

(2) "The expected life in most applications is 5 times that of lead acid batteries."

so if the life of an AGM is, lets say 3yrs, then their first line would be 30 yrs for the lithium

if we look at the 2nd line it would be 15yrs

But if we look at the paste by Allan...it is something different yet again
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Reply By: RobAck - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 17:04

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 17:04
To help with some factual information go to this link http://www.redarc.com.au/news/collyn_rivers_discusses_lithium_batteries/ it offers an excellent and unbiased view of this new battery technology and Collyn is the guru in this space.

We have moved to LifePO4 in order to provide enough power to my 240V CPAP machine run through an inverter. Otherwise I suggest the cost to early adopters is on average 3 times that of a decent 110AH AGM battery. Over the next 3-5 years the market will expend in volume and bring the price down to reasonable I guess but over that time the average user will have replaced their AGM or Calcium most likely and always depending on how well they are maintained.

So in short unless you can afford them or "must" have them I would not be recommending them just yet

But if you are prepared to move down this path then the following benefits are what we have experienced. An immediate weight saving of 38kg in the battery box, significantly better performance from the battery (one 100AH LifePO4 is giving us the same performance as two 110AH AGM), solar charging is significantly faster, like around >35% quicker.

But you also need the correct charging and management system to get the best from these batteries otherwise like anything not correctly maintained it will fail.

Size is not an issue in our experience they are all made to the same form factor as all other batteries to ensure like for like (size only) replacement. But the quality of these batteries is variable at the moment as anyone can import them and without knowing the pedigree I can see downsides to a purchase like that

I trust that helps

Rob
AnswerID: 596701

Follow Up By: Gronk - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 20:45

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 20:45
But if you are prepared to move down this path then the following benefits are what we have experienced. An immediate weight saving of 38kg in the battery box, significantly better performance from the battery (one 100AH LifePO4 is giving us the same performance as two 110AH AGM), solar charging is significantly faster, like around >35% quicker.

But you also need the correct charging and management system to get the best from these batteries otherwise like anything not correctly maintained it will fail.


The benefits are definitely there.......but the question was lifespan......and apart from money, if weight wasn't a priority, then an AGM is still the way to go.
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Follow Up By: RobAck - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 21:18

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 21:18
Lifespan of 3-5 times AGM is a given there is enough of this technology in commercial applications to have already proven that at a scale which is larger than small battery applications such as the ones under discussion. But lifespan is directly linked to the correct battery management system so without it the issue of lifespan is moot.

As I have stated in my view unless you can afford them or have a real need for their capability, regardless of lifespan, the remain an expensive choice compared to AGM of Calcium under the current costs in Australia. Who knows what the future holds in this space but LifePO4 has had a significant amount of investment from the battery manufacturers across the globe so it has every chance of growing in use and volume in the next 3-5 years

Your choice
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FollowupID: 865628

Follow Up By: Gronk - Saturday, Feb 27, 2016 at 08:56

Saturday, Feb 27, 2016 at 08:56
I haven't seen figures stating these batts will last up to 40yrs ??????

That is 5 times an AGM lifespan.....depending on charging regime ..
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Follow Up By: RobAck - Saturday, Feb 27, 2016 at 15:47

Saturday, Feb 27, 2016 at 15:47
Battery lifespan is not measured in years it is measured in charge and discharge cycles
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Sunday, Feb 28, 2016 at 10:12

Sunday, Feb 28, 2016 at 10:12
That's right, and if you do some basic sums, an AGM with "only" 1000 recharge cycles would last on average 5 to 8 yrs.

So a lithium at 3 to 5 times the lifespan of an AGM is expected to last up to 40yrs ?????

Won't happen...

If these batteries were a reasonable price, then they would be a no brainer, but return on investment just isn't there.....for the average bloke who hasn't got a lot of money to throw around.
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FollowupID: 865711

Reply By: Bigfish - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 20:25

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 20:25
I have had a lithium phosphate battery in my harley for over 12 months. Compared to the normal lead acid batteries I have had in the past , this battery is brilliant. Cost $350 compared to about $120 for normal lead acid. Often sits for 6 weeks between starts with no charging between starts. Fires up the motor instantly. Something the lead acid batteries have never been able to do. It weighs under a 1/4 of the old lead acid and is about 10% smaller in size. Has been super reliable and unlike the lead acid batteries I have never had to put a charger on it.


I was watching a news press show the other week and already there looks like there will be a better, cheaper alternative to the lithium battery. I think it was zinc bromide (I think). Scientist, who is Australian, said it will be way cheaper to produce, use more common materials and store better than lithium.......
AnswerID: 596711

Reply By: skulldug - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 22:09

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 22:09
Member 1,

Lithium batteries are now being warrantied to ten years on home systems. RV batteries are no different - just a much smaller and more conservative market.

These batteries are lighter and can use significantly more of their capacity without harm. They are happy to be stored while not fully charged, don't mind under bonnet heat and don't need an expensive dc-dc charger. Most modern chargers have a lifepo4 setting. So you buy much smaller batteries for the same performance.

Usual disclaimers. Not selling etc - just happy to spend a few dollars to save more in the long run.

Try EVWorks.com. No where near the price in your link.

Skull






AnswerID: 596722

Follow Up By: skulldug - Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 22:38

Friday, Feb 26, 2016 at 22:38
Correcting myself - 10+ years expected life, not warranty.
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FollowupID: 865633

Reply By: Ron N - Saturday, Feb 27, 2016 at 15:13

Saturday, Feb 27, 2016 at 15:13
I'm not prepared to throw my money into lithium batteries just yet - but that's me, I'm just an old, cautious, tech-dinosaur, who is reluctant to rush into "investing" in "new-technology".
I prefer to wait 2 or 3 years to see the true benefits materialise from out of the latest hyped-up sales talk.

My preference is the current technology lead acid batteries that use calcium with low antimony lead and added silver.
These batteries are proven L/A technology, just fine-tuned to perform even better than previous styles of L/A construction.
They also utilise robotic construction techniques to improve build accuracy, and improved mesh gridding of the lead plates, to increase performance.

I've had a Yuasa ute battery last for 10 yrs and 6 months and a Supercharge Gold Plus battery, last for 10 years and 9 mths, also in the ute.
Both are expensive batteries - but the Supercharge comes with a 40 mth guarantee.

I always look at the length of guarantee time to see just how much the manufacturer is prepared to put their money where their mouth is.
12 or 24 mths warranty is pretty pathetic really, if that's all a battery manufacturer is prepared to warrant their battery for.

I'm currently on Exide Extreme in my Isuzu truck and they're performing very well. The Exide Extremes come with a 42 mth warranty.
I'll let you know in another 6 or 8 years or so, how they went! [;-)

Cheers, Ron.
AnswerID: 596738

Reply By: Member - Andrew W14 - Monday, Feb 29, 2016 at 21:29

Monday, Feb 29, 2016 at 21:29
The telling factor here is that Fusion, despite claiming various times and multiples for this system only offer a 3 year warranty. What does that tell you?
Lithium are a viable (and can be cost effective depending on your use) alternative to AGM and other lead acids, but they have to be built and installed individually and correctly. Any charge will suffice but what does it do to the life of the batteries?

They have to have multiple controls attached to them (hi cell voltage cut off, low cell voltage cut off, high and low overall control, control of amps in and discharge, a specific charging routine etc). All these when fitted will give you a system that SHOULD last the 5,000 - 8,000 cycles claimed by the battery manufacturers. Fusion systems simply do not do this, hence the 3 year guarantee.

Mind you when installed properly they work beyond any expectations. I can run air con, toaster, microwave, kettle, coffee make etc virtually at will. My system is 320 amp LIFe PO4 system with a 3000/9000 inverter and 900 watts solar. i have seen discharge rates in excess of 3 KW and charge going in at 120 amps - frequently. And all this was about half the price of Fusion. Buyer beware!.
AnswerID: 596800

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