Lithium jump starters and fire danger?

SSB make the Lithioum IOn Phosphate batteries for motorcycles. These only require the normal charging system as fitted to the motorcycle. Brilliant battery. With regards to cars I think they make a larger battery but it is very expensive.

Thank you Keith. And around what price are the dedicated chargers and how big are they? I had assumed the jump starter would charge from a dashboard cigarette lighter plug.

H

Excellent post, Rob. Agree 100%

Cheers

LifePO4 is a quite mature technology and chemistry. It is used by the majority of the solar storage manufacturers as well as Tesla amongst others as well as playing a considerable role in defence and mining amongst other areas of business.

Like anything manufactured the quality of systems, process and control is vital. Hence the need to be very clear when purchasing something in this space that it is from a reputable supplier given the bulk of manufacturer is in the hand of a quite small number of quality suppliers. Charging and maintenance are part of the key in ensuring these batteries, like all of them actually, provide the user with the best possible experience, reliability and value for money. Right now LifePO4 is very expensive compared to the older battery technologies who also experience failures I may add. So value for money is not clearly evident for the average purchaser unless they have a specific requirement for the higher performance that the LifePO4 offers

Rob

It all depends on the USD exchange rate and how you work out "expensive". I am a 400 Ahr lithium pack that gives me the equivalent of 7 100 Ahr AGM batteries at about 27% of the weight, assuming discharge on AGMs should not exceed 50%. I will get many more cycles hopefully out of the lithium, which cost me about 25% more than AGMs when the exchange rate was better than now, plus my time understanding and configuring the battery management system, etc. Great system for high levels of use, but I agree not needed by everyone. It is very important to have the right charging algorithms and battery management system.

Robin, I have to agree with all you have said about the small jump start packs and how they were manufactured. There would not be much clearance inside and you would hope the insulation was up to scratch with all that horsepower sitting in there.

With all the brands out there, I would imagine some use dodgy manufacturing practices.

Hi Eagle

Rather than dodgy practices I rather say its just a lack of design focus on all of the issues.

They have made great strides on little aspects that simply don't come to attention of those outside the field, they will get there though and eventually they will be an even better product.

In approx 1992 , in conjunction with some other R & D engineers , we were working on the for runner of what is now called an E-Tag, an attempt was made to use the technology but an amazing little thing prevented there use , that was that when you switch on the Li battery , the power was not instantly available, it took about 30 milli-seconds (1/33 rd of a second) .

Meaningless most would say - but in that time a car at 300kmh will travel nearly 3 meters and be out of range of the detecting beam.

( 300kmh capability is required to insure no vehicle can escape detection)

hi RON
by what you have stated then they would not be suitable for rough track conditions such as the likes of eg.CSR /Gunbarrel hwy corregations etc and continued travel on aussie outback roads
cheers

Hi Mazcan - Well, I'd have to say, if travelling long distances on rough roads, you'd be best advised to treat Li-ion batteries as the equivalent of your best china - pack them well with plenty of soft packing material - and ensure that they're placed in a position, that if by chance, one does start to short-circuit - you can get to it easily, and get it out into the open, where smoke and flames can be dispersed and subdued.

They don't explode when they short circuit - they merely start to smoke, and as the heat level builds up, they can actually burst into flames.
In the cargo hold of an aircraft, where no-one is normally positioned to see what's going on, smoke detectors, fire suppression systems, and hold fire liners are installed to deal with cargo hold fires.

Smoke detectors alert the crew to smoke in the hold - crew can access the hold to attack hold fires with hand fire extinguishers - and if the crew are unable to suppress a hold fire with hand extinguishers, the ventilation to the hold is sealed, the hold is flooded with fire suppressant, and the aircraft makes an emergency landing.

The planning and design of aircraft fire suppression is such that the system is not designed to put out fires completely, it's designed to suppress the fire for long enough to prevent major damage to the airframe that would make the aircraft uncontrollable, and allow the crew time to make an emergency descent and landing.

Many pilots are leery about carrying Li-ion batteries, but with careful handling and packaging and with the full knowledge of what is being carried and where and how, the risks can be reduced to almost zero.

The airlines are getting very touchy about any Li-ion batteries being carried by passengers, and in particular spare batteries, and how they are packed.

When travelling by air, I carry spare Li-ion batteries for camera and laptop in a small plastic parts box with compartments - and each battery is wrapped in plastic foam packing sheet to ensure no movement can take place during travel.
It's also important to ensure that the battery terminals are totally unable to come into contact with any metal, that might create arcing and short-circuiting.

Every time I've boarded an aircraft lately, the counter staff ask if you're carrying Li-ion batteries, and want to see how your spare Li-ion batteries are packed.

Cheers, Ron.

Ron,

interesting comments.

I am presently considering fitting a LiFePO4 battery in a light aircraft to run some auxiliary equipment (HF Radio, Satphone, iPad etc). It would be charged by a semi-flexible solar panel glued to the wing. The advantage of this battery is the light weight, compared with say a lead acid battery of equivalent capacity. I am keen on a battery other than the existing SLA as I don't want to interfere in any way with the plane's electrics, even to the point of not using the cigarette lighter socket for the iPad.

However, the last thing I need is an incandescent battery behind me at 5000 ft.

Bob

Bob - Li-ion technology is getting better, despite both Cessna and Boeing having major problems with Li-ion batteries.
We all know about the 787 Dreamliner battery problems, but Cessna also had problems in 2011 with the Li-ion battery fitted to the Cessna Citation CJ4 (525C), which resulted in a emergency AD.

One Cessna Li-ion battery caught fire on the ground when ground charging equipment was attached, resulting in Cessna issuing the AD to replace all the Li-ions with Ni-Cad or Lead-Acid batteries.
Since 2013, however, Cessna have changed their Li-ion battery supplier and have lifted the AD and are refitting Li-ions, and saying they are confident the Li-ion problems have been solved.

The Dreamliner battery problem seems to be cured, with greater emphasis on battery construction quality by Yuasa and a fireproof stainless-steel battery box.

However, all these Li-ions are aviation-standard quality batteries. The major, ordinary Li-ion problems, centre around poor Chinese quality control, charging issues relating to incorrect charging or overcharging - and handling and packaging problems.

To utilise on your aircraft, an ordinary (non-aviation-standard) Li-ion battery built in China or some other 3rd-world country, without substantial QC oversight by a major manufacturer, would be asking for trouble, IMO.

Cheers, Ron.

Ron, Bob is asking about a LiFePO4 battery.
A LiFePO4 battery will not burn and is safe.

Sorry B&W, I was a bit switched off there, and forgot Bob was talking about LiFePO4 batteries.

Regardless, for aviation use, fitting anything to an aircraft that is a modification not produced by the aircraft manufacturer, requires approval from CASA and jumping through the hoops to prove it won't affect aircraft safety.

Cheers, Ron.

I suppose another pertinent question is where are they made? We are now importing most of our pharmaceuticals from China and a couple of years ago the head of the oversight body in China was executed for taking bribes to by pass proper testing.
There have been stories on this forum and elsewhere of people buying caravans made with poor quality, Chinese metal and the A frame to the tow bar collapsing.
Manufacturers may seek to impose strict conditions on production in China but I am rather wary of Chinese made stuff. Eventually the Chinese may get on top of poor quality as the did the Japanese when immediately post WW11 Japanese produced goods were regarded as rubbish.