Towing weights - where am I going wrong?

Submitted: Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 16:22
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Surely a 200 series Landcruiser can carry more than a Prado?

I have looked at the tech specs for the following vehicles but the figures are not making sense.

The ford Ranger can tow 3,500 kg but is limited by its low GCM. None the less, towing a 2,500 kg van I would still be under the allowable GCM by 719 kg and still within the allowable vehicle payload by 419 kg. (I'll give my assumptions for estimating vehicle payload at the end).

The Jeep Grand Cherokee can also tow 3,500 kg and has a higher GCM but lower payload than the Ranger. This would give me 1049 kg under the GCM but only 49 kg under the allowable vehicle payload.

The Prado 150 can tow only 2,500 kg, has a lower payload and GCM than the above two vehicles. This would make me 30 kg over the allowable GCM and also 30 kg over the vehicle payload.

The Landcruiser 200 series has a large GCM but very limited payload. It would give me 925 kg under the allowable GCM but the vehicle itself would be overloaded by 75 kg. Surely this can't be right?

I have assumed that allowable vehicle payload is GVM minus Kerb Mass.

I have estimated actual vehicle payload as follows. Two people (180 kg), weight on the tow ball (250 kg). A full tank of fuel less 10 litres (72 kg, 83 kg, 140 kg and 135 kg) bearing in mind different sized tanks. Camping gear and toys etc (80 kg). I have not made any allowance for bull bars, dual batteries etc.

What am I doing wrong? I can re-check the specs but I'm asking if my logic correct.

Skull
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Reply By: Ozi M - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 16:41

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 16:41
Always tricky, I can tell you that the Prado kerb weight includes 150 L of fuel (on a diesel) so I assume the Land Cruiser kerb weight will also include a full tank
AnswerID: 597554

Reply By: TomH - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 17:13

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 17:13
For a start Toyota Kerb mass includes full fuel tanks.

Tare is with 10L of fuel Toyota dont state a GCM for the 200 series so its GVM plus towing capacity

GCM is actually GVM plus GTM of the van.
AnswerID: 597556

Reply By: pop2jocem - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 17:31

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 17:31
I don't doubt your figures Skull, however I think you are comparing apples with pears.

200 Cruisers and Prados are both capable vehicles in their own right but they are passenger oriented whereas a vehicle such as the Ford Ranger or others of it's ilk are more aimed at being a work type vehicle. A 200 has a 4.5 lt twin turbo rated at something like 290 kw and bags of torque so quite capable of dragging 3,500 kg around but it's still a station wagon.
Any of the duel cab utes have engines ranging from around 2.5 lt to 3.2 lt and although their kw rating is up there they rely on heaps of turbo boost and injecting more fuel per cylinder to achieve their power. They also have commercial type rear suspension to cope with the extra weight carrying ability and are not all that concerned with giving everyone an armchair ride.

Cheers
Pop
AnswerID: 597557

Follow Up By: garrycol - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 18:47

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 18:47
290kw - something 200 owners can only dream of.
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 20:10

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 20:10
OOPS

How about 200 kw and 650 nm torque standard. A bit more if you really want to go there...LOL

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: mountainman - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 20:56

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 20:56
290 isnt a dream
a DP chip will give you that easy
brother in law maxed out the chip and the v8 diesel ute bloody FLEEEEEEEEEEW
HARD !!
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FollowupID: 866608

Reply By: friar - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 18:30

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 18:30
I can only comment on my mates experience,he has a Prado as well as an Izuzu 4x4 ,as for towing his old 15 ft Viscount,the Prado is more stable on the road, pulling power not much differance, he reckons the distance from the axle to the tow bar makes all the differance, the Izuzu is an extra cab with a maximum legal tray,with extended draw bar.
AnswerID: 597558

Reply By: Member - johntoyo - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 20:04

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 20:04
Skull, 200 owners have been complaining since it came out about the low carrying capacity. Lovells and other companies love them as they can sell their after market GVM upgrades to 3800kg.

4 adults, a full load of fuel and you have about 150kg left for your ball weight and that's with a stock 200 never mind any bull bar or rear wheel carriers etc.

The latest model of 200 (Sept) 2015 I believe now even states the allowable GCM at 6850kg.

John.
AnswerID: 597562

Follow Up By: TomH - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 22:40

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 22:40
In that case it is the GVM plus 3500kg as GVM seems to be 3350 for all models.
If that is so a GVM increase would be detrimental because it doesnt increase your GCM.
Previously when no GCM was published you could up the GVM and still tow the 3500kg Now it appears if you up it to 3800kg you will only be able to tow 3050kg
In the brochure I have it states that the payload of a VX and a GXL TD is 610kg
That is above Kerb weight which is with full fuel tanks
Tare is with 10 L only. Found this for a GXL Diesel
- Tare weight (kg) 2630
- Kerb weight (kg) 2740
- Gross vehicle mass (kg) 3350
- Gross trailer weight braked (kg) 3500
- Gross combination mass (kg) 6850
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FollowupID: 866618

Follow Up By: Member - johntoyo - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:51

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:51
Yes Tom.

Regardless of slight wt. difference due to model its 6850kg. If you had the previous model it could be interpreted as GVM +3500 (by the WA Dept of Transport vehicle inspectors). Now Toyota has stated a GCM that has been removed, and they will be reluctant to give that interpretation.

It's my understaning that the LC200 in the US has a larger rating allthough the same vehicle, but there its not the top of the heap just wants to be.

John.
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Follow Up By: skulldug - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 11:08

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 11:08
John,

Toyota give a GCM for the 200 series on their website but either way, the limiting factor is not the GCM, it's the GVM. The Landcruiser just runs out of allowable payload.


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FollowupID: 866634

Follow Up By: Member - johntoyo - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 16:02

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 16:02
Skull, what I was referring to is that if you have a GVM upgrade with the current model, because only now Toyota states a GCM the Dept of Transport will (probably) take that, not say 3800+3500 if you have had a GVM upgrade with previous models.

Hence the poularity of the American tugs at least when the A$ was stronger.

John.
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Reply By: Member - bungarra (WA) - Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 23:01

Saturday, Mar 19, 2016 at 23:01
As a 200 owner this subject is one that I was very well aware of before I purchased ours ...we were changing from a '79 series tray back that we ignorantly made too heavy as we blissfully added things....one day we weighed it !

So my story is that the day we purchased it and started adding accessories I meticulously weighed each added fixed item and did a spreadsheet watching it grow.I can tell you if your towing a 3,500 'van as we do there is little margin for error and not a lot of payload when the ball weight may reach 10% of the 'van

Some facts....first hand. July 2014 delivery

Sales handout glossy brochure states kerb weight at 2630: the internet stated 2730: Actual on day of delivery with full tank was 2764
Since then with the following mods * Kerb weight is now 2940
* Toyo open country tires
* optima start battery
* ARB full bar work
* ARB GVM upgrade (inc poly air)
* Warn 10-S winch
* ARB compressor

I wont detail the whole list but I even weighed the MSA seat covers for example...I also allowed for the two rear seats removal (37kg) and so on...All this to be aware of the kerb weight and try and stay legal towing........you can read between the lines to see how difficult it is to do so. Dont forget the driver and passenger etc......
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AnswerID: 597567

Reply By: Steve D1 - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:07

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:07
Just found this PDF, with lots of info, and specs for just about every car on the market.
May be helpful for some.
Steve

Towing Guide
AnswerID: 597574

Follow Up By: TomH - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:44

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:44
Well the definitions in that are not entirely correct for a starter
Kerb Mass / Tare Mass – the unladen mass of the vehicle
Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) – the total mass of the vehicle including its load
Gross Combination Mass (GCM) – the total mass of a loaded vehicle and its loaded trailer
Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) – the mass supported by the axle/s or wheels of a loaded trailer
Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) – the total legal loaded mass of a trailer including the tow ball
download
Tow Ball Mass / Download – the mass transferred by a trailer onto the rear of a tow vehicle

How I understand the definitions and it seems a lot of others do also

Tare and Kerb are different as Tare is dry with 10L of Fuel and Kerb is usually with full fuel tanks
GVM is a rating and is the MAXIMUM LEGAL allowable loaded mass
GCM is also a rating and is the MAX ALLOWABLE WEIGHT OF THE COMBINATION
GTM again is a rating and is a MAXIMUM allowable weight on the axles (or suspension if you like)
They got ATM correct at least
The weights you get on a weighbridge under the above ratings are ACTUAL LOADED WEIGHTS and are not GVM, GTM or GCM which are the Limits not to be exceeded
EG you weigh a van it has an GTM of 2300kg on the scales it is 2280kg That is its actual loaded weight NOT its GTM as stated in the guide. Enough confusion about these definitions without a publication stuffing them up.
Some makes do define kerb weight differently just to confuse everyone. I believe one Euro make actually do it with 75kg allowed for a driver.
If in doubt ask the dealer.
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Follow Up By: skulldug - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:58

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 10:58
Thanks Steve and Tom, Very useful.

I'll redo the figures once I can find something definitive on Kerb/Tare mass. I have found an Australian standard that uses the terminology "unladen mass" and assumes a full tank of fuel. But - I also note several sources that assume TM to be the weight of the vehicle as it was delivered to the customer. Mine have always had less than 1/4 tank.

I was thinking I might just fork out the big dollars for a Landcruiser and never have to worry about weights again. That would have been an expensive mistake it seems.

Skull
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FollowupID: 866633

Follow Up By: TomH - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 13:23

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 13:23
I posted the kerb weight of a 200 ser and it appears to be correct as the Tare is less so must be with full fuel. As here

GXL TD
Tare weight (kg) 2630
- Kerb weight (kg) 2740
The Tare is always with radiator water and oils and 10L of fuel as it comes off the assembly line.
Some Mazdas ony give an undefined kerb weight.
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FollowupID: 866640

Reply By: Member - Jim B8 - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 11:02

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 11:02
Skull
I love this subject, if it is ever quiet, throw in a weight bomb it is said ha ha.
Read every response in detail, and i reckon the only picture painted will look like many people trying to make sense out of a nonsensical situation. State, federal, manufacturer, and 22,000,000 interpretations. get it right in one state, and someone will state that "you cant do that in the West" or something similar.
When will the feds bring in laws that make the manufacturers clearly define what each vehicle can tow with a graph of vehicle loaded weight v's towing capacity. Might see the Ford girl not being so bubbly?? Cute, but not entirely clear in her passion?

My new Mazda can tow 3500kg's according to the ads, but a reality check shows differently ha ha. Me - I just stick to GCM and dont exceed it. Forget GVM, ball weight etc, when towing.
I think we need to ask the pollies to sort this issue
Jim
AnswerID: 597577

Follow Up By: Member - Ups and Downs - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:23

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:23
Yes Jim,
I heard from a mate of the brother-in-law that they are working on a 3 year University course to enable the matter of sticking a few bits in/on your vehicle to be understood!
Paul
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FollowupID: 866635

Follow Up By: Jackolux - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:56

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:56
It's not that hard really is it , each axel has a max load that you can't exceed if you want to be legal .
You can still be under GVM - GCW but over on a axel .

I had a salesman at the Super Show in Melbourne just a few week ago , tell me I could load the truck he was trying to sell me to Max GVM and still tow X amount of Kg's , because it had a GCM of whatever it was ( can't remember ) .

He just couldn't get it , that tow ball load added to the GVM .

Mate bought a new Hilux , salesman told him he could , load the Lux to max GVM and still tow 3.5T , Toyota are the only vehicles that can be loaded to Max GVM and still tow Max amount , according to him .
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FollowupID: 866638

Follow Up By: TomH - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 13:29

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 13:29
Just to clarify GCM it is made up of the GVM of the tug and the GTM of the van

NOT THE ATM as if you add that on you have added TBW twice

A common misunderstood mistake

However the towing limit is done on the ATM of the van so you cant, with a 3500kg towing weight
hook up a 3800kg van and say its legal cos it has a 300kg ball weight.

Make sense Maybe
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Reply By: Notso - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 17:42

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 17:42
All of this just highlights the reason why there is a good trade in Upping the GVM of the 200 series. Anyone who tows a reasonable sized van and has even the bare minimum of extra gear will find themselves over the rated GVM. This would be true of most vehicles that are towing anywhere near their GCM
AnswerID: 597584

Reply By: Idler Chris - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 19:55

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 19:55
This is all great stuff, all I have to do now is remember it. When I am pulled over by any transport inspector he is going to cop verbal diarrhea of acronyms and their explanations.I expect he will beg me to stop, which I won't, and I expect him to just drive away and look for an easier target.
What other people think of me is none of my business.
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AnswerID: 597586

Reply By: 9900Eagle - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 20:09

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 20:09
Early model px1 ranger.

Tare 2200 kg
GVM 3200 kg (gross vehicle mass)
GCM 5950 kg (gross combination mass)
I tow 2.5t with mine and have no trouble keeping under the gcm.
Ranger weighs 3t loaded with everything and van goes 2.5t. Ball weight is 180kg, so ranger has 3180kg on her back with the ball weight. You don't need 10% ball weight, it is only a figure someone arrived at somewhere in the world and I do it without a weight distribution hitch. Load placement is the critical thing to keep the van under control.

The later 3.5t rated rangers have a 6 tonne GCM. Same chassis and same everything.

AnswerID: 597587

Follow Up By: TomH - Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 22:30

Sunday, Mar 20, 2016 at 22:30
Just for fun you should weigh the back axle weight with the van hooked up.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 07:49

Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 07:49
Don't want to disappoint you Tom, but it is under max allowable rear axle weight. I have access to the use of a weigh bridge, so it was easy for me to take all the weights I wanted.
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FollowupID: 866652

Follow Up By: TomH - Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 09:47

Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 09:47
Not disappointed Was just curious.
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Reply By: skulldug - Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 07:26

Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 07:26
Thanks to all for sharing your thoughts. I have done some corrections to allow for fuel load.

Here are my comments on the suitability of each of the four vehicles to tow a 2,500 kg van with my normal payload in the vehicle.

Ford Ranger would do the job with at least 350 to 420 kg spare to pack in the back. But beware - add a bigger van and you will soon go over the GCM.

Jeep Grand Cherokee would also do the job well over 100 kg of spare payload. It would also carry a bigger van - up to 3,500 kg if desired.

The Prado 150 would do the job but you would be pushing the limits. Any extra gear would need to go in the car, not the van.

The Landcruiser 200 scrapes in but only just. You will need to carry anything extra in the van as the vehicle payload is maxed out. You can go to a bigger van up to 3,500 kg but not if that means additional tow ball weight.

Alternately, you can just drive on through the weigh station throwing gear out of the car as you go:)
AnswerID: 597593

Reply By: TomH - Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 09:52

Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 09:52
Am surprised about the 200 as we towed a van of 2965kg with a 100ser and werent overweight.

Was fairly tight and we didnt have an awful lot in the tug Took all seats out except the front two and had a Waeco, a genny, some tools in the drawers and some light stuff in the back. Ran it over a weighbridge and had a bit over so left the roofrack and a couple of other things behind and all was good.

Was only two of us though, any more would have been a problem.
AnswerID: 597597

Reply By: Yunderup Fox n Wifey - Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 13:33

Monday, Mar 21, 2016 at 13:33
Skull,

as I read all the replies it reminds me of the headache I have just been through with my 79 series ute. I tow an a van that is allowed about 320kg above tare. Once you get some water and wine that might keep you sustained for a few days in the bush, there is not much room for much else.
I ended up with a partial gvm upgrade on the ute and brought a set of scales. Drove the Wifey insane. Weighed every little thing in the van including the Tupperware, pots, pans dish washing liquid, playing cards, clothes etc etc.
Got the van down to legal weight then started on the tug. It is certainly a challenge. Even within the lucrative gvm upgrade industry there is so much differing info with each claiming the best product.
In the end I have weighed everything and visited the weigh bridge on numerous occasions and I am confident that I am a legal on road unit ( in my opinion anyway).
I think there are plenty out there that don't even consider the whole thing. Ignorance is bliss. I also believe that the transport authority's don't touch the caravan industry either because I think it would spell the end of caravanning for just about anything that is over about 2.8 tonne.
These days lots of people want to be independent of the ever increasing prices of the caravan parks, and are more and more free camping. With this comes the increased weight with bigger tanks for water, then an extra tank to contain the grey water, showers toilets, washing machines etc . Etc. You get the idea.
So good luck with.......... what was your question?

ha ha ha ha its always hard to get a straight answer to your question on a forum but it certainly generates discussion and proves that there are plenty of opinions ( opinions are like arse holes everyone has got one) hopefully with continued discussion on this subject there may be some national unity and black and white guidelines (long term dream)

Cheers Old Yunderup Fox
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AnswerID: 597605

Reply By: Mapesy (QLD) - Thursday, Mar 24, 2016 at 12:23

Thursday, Mar 24, 2016 at 12:23
My two bob's worth.

Vehicle Weights Explained

Tow Vehicle (200 series Landcruiser Sahara 2010)

Kerb Mass (with full fuel)
2720
Tare Mass (10L Fuel) – the unladen mass of the vehicle
2610

Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) – the total mass of the vehicle including its load
3300

Gross Combination Mass (GCM) – the total mass of a loaded vehicle and its loaded trailer
6800

Trailer/Caravan (Royal Flair Promenade)
Kerb Mass / Tare Mass – the unladen mass of the trailer
2385
Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) – the mass supported by the axle/s or wheels of a loaded trailer
2515

Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) – the total legal loaded mass of a trailer including the tow ball
download
2785
Tow Ball Mass / Download – the mass transferred by a trailer onto the rear of a tow vehicle
Therefore fully laden vehicle plus fully laden caravan = 6800 GCM – (3300 GVM + 2785 ATM) = 715kgs under max allowable
AnswerID: 597714

Follow Up By: TomH - Thursday, Mar 24, 2016 at 18:29

Thursday, Mar 24, 2016 at 18:29
In your calculations you have added the ballweight twice. Once in the GVM of the tug and again by adding the ATM of the van
Whilst the towing limit of a vehicle is expressed as the ATM of what it can tow, when you weigh the GCM you are weighing the GVM including the ballweight and the GTM of the van as the ball weight is already in the GVM of the tug.
Make sense, has been a big argument/ discussion on another forum about the same thing.
In actual fact none of your explanations except Tare ATM and ballweight are dead correct
GVM, GTM, ATM and GCM are all LEGAL LIMITS and are NOT the ACTUAL LOADED WEIGHT of a vehicle at any one time. They are all ratings and are the maximum it can weigh. They are not a weighable figure.
Have been smacked a few times by describing them the same as you have.
I did state all of the correctly worded definitons in Followup 866630
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FollowupID: 866795

Reply By: The Bantam - Sunday, Mar 27, 2016 at 01:22

Sunday, Mar 27, 2016 at 01:22
People do persist in towing the biggest van they can with a pasenger car.... a pasenger car that realy is not even designed to run at its best with all seats occupied by adults.

If you have the money for a 200 series ...... have a look at the Iveco turbo daily.

Similar in price and you get a whole pile of things factory standard, that you have to pay for in almost any 4wd... like diff locks, air suspended seats, fabulous ground clearance, huge wheels and on and on.

AND you get a decent payload and towing capacity at the same time.

AND it is a heavy commercial vehicle specifically designed to run fully loaded all day every day.

Isuzu and Hino also have similar offerings

On the matter of towing capacity confusion/ lies ..... a few years ago a bloke on Ausfish posted a spread sheet of the available utes and all their particulars ... AND the relatity detived from those figures ....... it was an eye opener.

Many of the vehicles with massive published towing capacities need to be loaded with no more than a bloke and his lunchbox to achieve the published towing capacities.

Its a confusion that certain manufacturers take advantage of.

cheers
AnswerID: 597812

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