Chinese manufacturer ditches diesels

I guess we also have to get the terminology correct, now, too. It's now called "Nitrogen Dioxide", not Nitrous Oxide. [:-)

It's interesting to see that in both the U.S. and Australia, the levels of NO2 have been highly satisfactory and have never posed a problem.
In fact, in the U.S., the NO2 levels have been decreasing.

Air pollution trends - U.S.A.

NO2 air quality fact sheet - Australia

The particulates pose a concern because its now believed that they lodge in the lungs and cause health problems, similar to the way asbestos fibres cause asbestosis and mesathelioma.

It's not just breathing the emissions that is the problem, either - the problem is also what the compounds in the emissions can be converted into, once in the atmosphere.

In the case of NO2, it's nitric acid (that leads to acid rain) and other poisonous Nitrogen compounds such as organic nitrates that destroy oxygen levels in lakes and rivers, thus leading to fish kills.

The Asians are suffering purely because of their numbers - we are lucky in that even in our cities, the population numbers and vehicle numbers are still down on Asian numbers.

Interestingly, despite an increase in population and motor vehicle numbers, Carbon Monoxide levels in the U.S have fallen an amazing 85% between 1980 and 2014!

Air Trends - Carbon Monoxide - U.S.A.

Nothing is reported on CO levels in Australia - but this Aust Govt fact sheet explains where our CO comes from.

National Pollutant Inventory - Carbon Monoxide

The fact sheet claims that CO has an amplifying effect on greenhouse gas levels.
If this is the case, and if there has been a substantial decline in CO in the U.S. since 1980, it does make one ponder about climate change science.

Cheers, Ron.

Wonder if the levels are falling due to tree and human ingest?

Won't work here, too busy chopping down the trees.

The main issue with nitrogen dioxide is the formation of photochemical smog. N2O is decomposed by uv light and leads to a number of free radical reactions that form various compounds found in smog.
Nitrous oxide is a different chemical compound and is a potent greenhouse gas. One source of interest to the scientific community is its production via the microbiological denitrification in soil of nitrogenous fertiliser which costs both the farmer in lost fertiliser and the environment.

Diesel particulates are now getting so small they're crossing cell walls - in the brain and testes. Becoming noticeable in underground miners. Not at all desirable.

Malcolm
people dont even know about bob browns little secret.
he bought a rural property backing onto some mountains.
He decided to chop all the trees down soo he had a view of the mountains.
If thus guy is soo screwed up
no one has a chance to make a difference.

Oh yeah its called , dont vote for the greens

Mountainman,

I guess you get your news and "facts" from reality TV and the Murdoch press.

News Crop.

Diesel particulates are now getting so small they're crossing cell walls - in the brain and testes. Becoming noticeable in underground miners. Not at all desirable.


A lot of underground COAL mines have known about diesel particulates for a while. All diesels have been running scrubbers ( water ) for 20 yrs, but for some ( that care ), have been running paper filters as well, which are changed typically every day, with disposable gloves and the filter is sealed in a bag and sent away as carcinogenic waste.

This is not so in hard rock mines, where they still use a normal muffler ..

Yeah, the wrinkle is that the filtration doesn't deal adequately with the smallest particles.

Gronk
In underground COAL mines all diesels have running scrubbers ( water ) when I started in the industry in 1970.

My info comes from the CEO of a filter company supplying to u/g mine diesel vehicles.

Yep hit the nail on the head!
Gotta love the advertising for Battery powered cars & Power tools "Zero Emissions".
Only if you are charging using Solar or wind power.
One of the engineers from Nissan said to me that the new Nissan Leaf battery car uses very energy hungry processes in production but people "feel good" when they buy them because they are so good for the environment. Not!
Cheers
Stu

"Only if you are charging using Solar or wind power"

Exactly the same as electric cars. Where does the power come from in the production of solar panels, cabling, wind turbines, etc etc, etc.

"Exactly the same as electric cars. Where does the power come from in the production of solar panels, cabling, wind turbines, etc etc, etc."

True, but all sources of power and distribution require production of generators, turbines, whether steam or wind or whatever, cabling, etc etc, etc

So give everyone the common stuff and then subtract the burning of fossil fuels to do the actual generation. Where is the balance then?

If we had any politicians with a bit of foresight, we could have sizeable areas of desert/semi-desert country filled with solar panels and eliminate most of our coal-fired power stations.

Battery technology has now progressed to the point where the Americans are using banks of sea-container size batteries for power station peak loads - and they can only improve from here on in.

Elon Musk and his electric cars are pioneers in todays electric field - but Musk has an overall plan that encompasses lithium battery recycling, zero-waste factories, and efficiency that will make electric power in cars extremely viable, I believe.

High power supercapacitors are an area of big potential - the CSIRO has been experimenting with them for years and already have them on the market.

However, despite the CSIRO putting them in a prototype electric car, with quite admirable success, the idea seemed to take a back seat for a long time, for reasons that I do not know.
It appears the CSIRO is still pursuing their research, with the aim of using supercapacitors in electric cars quite soon.
They have apparently licenced their supercapacitor technology to a company called Cap-XX - and Cap-XX speak of agreements with vehicle manufacturers shortly, to use their supercapacitors.

When you think about it, capacitors are ideal for electric cars - providing a surge of current to take off - and being able to be recharged via regenerative braking.

CSIRO research - energy storage

Cap-XX

I personally believe that within 15-20 years, electric cars and hybrids will comprise the largest part of new vehicle sales. With driverless technology, it'll be a whole brave new world!

Cheers, Ron.

So give everyone the common stuff and then subtract the burning of fossil fuels to do the actual generation. Where is the balance then?


Unlike some countries, we are not at the stage where we can subtract burning of fossil fuels to generate electricity.

Nor are we likely to be in the next 20 years !

"Unlike some countries, we are not at the stage where we can subtract burning of fossil fuels to generate electricity.

Nor are we likely to be in the next 20 years !"

If we could find some leadership not beholden to the status quo and a bit of political will it would be quite likely.

Boobook, I was under the impression that the Haval Company have made this decision to ditch diesels - not only because of technical reasons - but because the Chinese Govt is intent on cleaning up emissions to reduce smog in their biggest cities - particularly Beijing, which is apparently notorious for smog.

I'm fully aware the Chinese aren't overly concerned about meeting Western countries requirements.
However, the bottom line is that diesels in cars, particularly those owned by city residents, are barely justifiable at the best of times.

There's just no economic or fuel economy or pollution benefit in owning a diesel for purely city use - particularly when short trips are common.
They cost a lot more (to build and buy) - the fuel is 20% dearer, thus offsetting any economy gains - and repairs are double or triple that of a petrol engine.

I seem to remember the Chinese making the decision just a few years back to make diesel the primary fuel for commercial use.

Up until then, they were like the Americans in the '40's and '50's, and were happy to keep churning out large petrol engines, particularly in trucks.

There is always a need for a balance to be struck with the diesel/petrol split, for Govts and for oil companies.
In recent years, diesel demand has skyrocketed and petrol demand has increased by only a small percentage.
This meant that the refiners had to try and get more diesel out of crude, which meant more cost to them.

The percentages of diesel and petrol obtained from regular crude distillation have always been fairly static.
The balance could be altered a few percent each way, but not by a huge amount.

So, when the demand for diesel skyrocketed, the refiners had to build catalytic-cracking refineries to alter the structure of the hydrocarbons so they could produce more diesel.
This has been one of the factors in the increase in diesel cost over the last 3 to 4 decades.
The increasing demand for diesel has also led to the price level we have now.

The greatest single problem is that the simplicity of the diesel engine has been lost by the constant increase in complexity of current model diesel engines. They are now, equally as complex as petrol engines - and they have huge repair costs because they are demanding of high-tech and costly engineering, in the fuel system, in particular.

The Chinese can see that switching away from diesels in areas where they provide no real benefit, is going to put pressure on oil producers, and reduce demand, and thereby the cost of diesel for the important parts of the Chinese economy.

Personally, I believe that the Chinese are working very hard on electric power for automotive use, and I wouldn't be in the least surprised to see the Chinese right up there with Tesla soon.

However, with the current record of reliability of most Chinese electric products (their gensets are crap), I'd hope that they build a bit more reliability into their electric-powered automotive products!

Cheers, Ron.

Sorry Ron I lost track of your post at point number 2834!

Not a problem, I'm actually ok with Havel not making diesels any more.

What I'm getting at, is the future for diesel engines in cars, isn't good.
The Haval people are picking up on the future direction of power sources - for the world.

The NY Times points out that worldwide, diesel is on a downhill run and petrol is going to make a resurgence with new petrol engines that feature improved fuel economy.

The dimming of Diesel Fuel's future in cars

The British are considering banning diesel cars from cities.

Diesel cars could be banished as Britain ordered to cut pollution levels

I personally believe we will see diesels becoming less available in cars in Australia, and in 4WD's as well.
The low price of oil is making the situation worse - and there is little sign that oil prices will return to their former high levels anytime in the next 5 yrs.

Cheers, Ron.

hey Ron, was the future for diesel engines ever good? When considering real world total cost of ownership diesel's just a fad surely?
Over the last decade I've had good runs with a big petty motor and a big diesel motor, give me the petty anyday. Quieter, more power and more economical than diesel for that power, if you don't want the power, just don't press the pedal as hard.

Landcoaster - It's hard to say where the diesel fits in, in the next 20 yrs, as regards cars and small commercials.
Their original benefits, of extreme simplicity (give them fuel and air and they'll go), and exceptional fuel economy - along with increased torque - were big selling points - and there used to be only a moderate premium for the diesel engine choice.

Today, diesels are just as complex as their petrol brothers, the fuel economy of the newer petrol engines is increasing - whereas diesels aren't - and the premium for the diesel option seems to have increased substantially in the last 20 yrs or so.

They still do have the torque advantage over petrol engines - and therefore are superior when it comes to towing.

It never ceases to amaze me though, how the "factory figures" on fuel consumption never relate to any real life figures. I don't know anyone who gets "factory figures" unless they're doing a steady 80kmh with no load, on a flat section of freeway, and keeping tyre pressures up.

IMO, there's virtually no difference in fuel running costs per km between petrol and diesel today - particularly when you factor in the 20% premium on diesel pricing in many areas, plus the dreadful maintenance and repair costs of CR diesels.
You can buy a complete new petrol engine for the cost of a CR diesel injection overhaul, in many cases

The diesels do have a longer life - but very few people run diesels to the end of their life. A friend has a 200 series that has done 800,000kms and it still uses very little oil and still runs like a Swiss watch.
However, very few people do more than 200,000-250,000kms in their vehicles before they trade them - and a vehicle with those kms is severely depreciated.

You rarely get a bigger percentage in resale for a secondhand diesel than a petrol, when you take into account the extra dollars you paid for it.

Personally, I think diesels in the next 20 yrs will disappear from light vehicles and will be relegated to medium-size and heavy commercials.
I reckon the smallest truck motors will become the smallest diesels around, because they will become a "premium" engine.

I believe there will be a major split in transportation methods, with electric and hybrid drives being favoured as city transport, with diesels relegated to heavy transport, and country owners, and rural use.

Even large truck manufacturers such as Volvo are playing with hybrid drive for their largest prime movers, and it's very likely that city buses will become hybrid drive as electronic components become more efficient, lighter, cheaper, and simpler to work on.
Light vehicles will follow truck and bus design. I can see future electric and hybrid drive with inbuilt fault testing, and with "slip-in" components, that make them as easy to fix as installing a new CPU in your computer.

Diesel-electric propulsion is quite efficient, as diesel engines perform best at steady RPM's, and lower RPM's. Most diesels only need to run at 1500 RPM for power generation and a steady 1500 RPM at that - so that eliminates the wasted fuel (and pollution) in spooling up and down, as they do with current drivetrains.

CVT transmissions may play a bigger part in the near future, in eliminating excessive engine RPM variations, and therefore lowering pollution to a degree - but I personally believe they will only be a temporary stage on the way to a lot more electric, or hybrid-electric drivetrains.

It's likely that legislation and environmental pressure will lead to cities passing laws that favour electric power and penalise todays style of diesels, within city boundaries.

Rural and outback areas will not be affected so much in this manner - but the populated areas are the biggest markets - and manufacturers cater and design for the biggest markets - so rural users will probably be resorting more to the smaller commercial-type vehicles for rural use, and probably utilise a hired or owned electric car, for zipping around the cities.

I believe the range problem of pure electric vehicles will soon be solved by improved efficiency and new technology - and range isn't even a problem with a hybrid.

I'm just waiting for the 1st hybrid or even pure electric 4WD. Maybe in future you won't be sitting around relaxing in a campsite and fiddling with solar panels to recharge the caravan battery - you'll be adjusting the solar panels to recharge your 4WD for the next days stage! [;-)

Cheers, Ron.

Im right up there with you Ron, except on one point. Diesel deliver good torque when comparing engine capacity, but they are apples in comparison to the engine weight in oranges...
I am not all that learned, but it may be said, weight for weight, they produce very similar torque.

I already have some draft plans to convert my next 4x4 bus to a solar-land-yacht. At the moment, three days of panel charging should get me 10K further down the track and that is all i will need...

Crikey Ron - any chance of not writing War and Peace in every post - just too long to read so I just skim.

Your point about the price of diesel vs petrol may be relavant in Aust but not elsewhere in the world. Overall diesel in Europe is a bit cheaper than petrol. Europeans love their diesels and they are meeting every increasing pollution requirements.

Do not confuse what is happening in Aust with what is happening on the global side where diesel will continue to be an important auto fuel.

Garry

Not even by half, Diesel has not gained an all encompassing acceptance in europe as we are imagining stats
They have even had to close down Paris so people can see the tower article
and we've known it for years another article
it's just a fad, a 3b weighs the same as a sbc and driving a sbc like a 3b achieves similar economy figures.

Those stats are misleading. The top line is Cypress where I think they have 5 registered cars and 4 of them must be petrol (just kidding, you know what I mean). If you actually drive around Europe, the diesel pumps at motorway fuel outlets outnumber the petrol pumps by a large margin in the big countries like Germany, France and Italy.
Japanese cars make up less than 10% of vehicles sold in Europe according to new vehicle registration figures for the first quarter 2016. Nissan sells almost as good as Toyota because they build in Europe using Renault engines.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/263421/market-share-of-selected-car-maunfacturers-in-europe/
Diesel has been cheaper than petrol at all the garages I buy at for quite a while now. I have to buy diesel, unleaded and premium unleaded for our various cars. Diesel has been around $1.09, Unleaded $1.14 and premium $1.25. At various stages I've bought diesel for less than a dollar but never for petrol.
Petrol beats diesel hands down for short trip city driving. Diesel wins for just about any other driving in my book, its the best for economy, towing, range and safety if you have to carry extra. How many big rig semis are petrol? They've priced lpg out of the market. I can't wait for viable electric cars, especially 4wds with a motor on each wheel and max torque from start.

Ron N. Mate I agree with you 100% and yes I was there in the 60's when the first LC came to AUS with a 3-speed manual gearbox with a petrol engine to take on Land Rover which was the only serious 4x4 available in AUS at that time. I recall the Toyota Crown sedan and Ute, Datsun 1000's, etc. and yes the Jap product is now the benchmark as far as vehicles go in AUS. My point though was that the Chinese are nowhere near the mark just yet, far from it in fact. That includes trailers, camper trailers, horse floats and caravans and I can assure you in my work we see 1000's of them. I do not believe at the developmental stage they are at, any statement they make re future engine fuel types has to be taken with a grain of salt because as an automotive manufacturer they are not yet a world authority to be reckoned with. Yes they can compete on price but who couldn't when you pay peanuts to employees who have no industry award protection in a country with no environmental controls. In terms of other products manufactured in that country I am yet to see anything of comparable quality and longevity to that manufactured in AUS or elsewhere in the modern world. It is a sad fact that their cheap poor quality products that are flooding our country has resulted in sending many good AUS manufacturers to the wall. Now we have a situation covering many areas, if you are prepared to pay for quality you can no longer get it because the quality manufacturers have long gone. God help us if we ever urgently need any serious heavy engineering capacity in an emergency because there just isn't those resources available in this country anymore.