Bio diesel diesel 80 series toyota

Submitted: Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 18:31
ThreadID: 132665 Views:2746 Replies:5 FollowUps:14
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Hi all,

What's the feed back for bio diesel? Have people used it? What vehicles use?
I have a non turbo diesel landcruiser, not game to use it.

Regards
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Reply By: Member - Trouper (NSW) - Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 18:46

Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 18:46
Larsy, I have a book which explains the method of making your own Bio Diesel. If you intend making your own it is not that easy. glycerine is your enemy as it clogs fuel filters. It takes a fare effort to remove it, to make it worthwhile you need to make about 200 litres at a time
If you intend buying it, about 10% is the usual mix. I used to run it in my old clunker 2.4lt .I'm not sure how the newer CRD systems would like it.
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Follow Up By: Member - larsy - Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 18:58

Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 18:58
Hey trouper,
No don't intend to make it, not that keen lol. I have seen it at a few pumps and wondered.... If I could use it. I thought I'd use it as a top up only, ie. If I only need like 30 litres...
If the old girl don't like it surely it would show.
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Follow Up By: Member - Trouper (NSW) - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 12:18

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 12:18
I see you have a great 80 series Larsy . I recon you could run 10 or 20% easily. In my 2.4Lt 4 Runner I used to filter used chip oil from a mates shop after I let it settle for about 10 days and mix it 25% with diesel fuel. All good did it for about 12 months and no issues. Sold it in 2008 and still see the owner occasionally no issues engine done about 350000.
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Reply By: fisho64 - Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 20:45

Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 20:45
I had a 100 series TD and ran B20 thru it almost exclusively for 200,000km til sold with no issues at all.
Have a 200 now but dont use it in that as its not cheaper like it used to be.
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Follow Up By: Bob R4 - Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 21:30

Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 21:30
I used to make my own (successfully, and for 38c per lt) for my old Hi-Ace van. Motor loved it, economy was fine, and the fuel pump loved it because of the lubricicity.
In France, I believe it is mandated as an additive (of 2 or so %) for diesel fuel to overcome the loss of lubrication which was provided by the sulphur in diesel in past times.
I'd recommend its use, even just as an additive to normal diesel.
I did over 400,000 km with home made before it became inconvenient to make. When the fuel pump and injectors were overhauled, the technician commented on the good condition of them and questioned if they were original. They were, and I explained the biodiesel use. He agreed the condition was all down to good lubrication.
It doesn't hurt to remember that Rudolph Diesel invented his motor to run on peanut oil. Then along came the oil companies...........
Straight bio is not an option for common rail engines, as burning characteristics are not suitable, but 2% is fine.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 23:22

Monday, Jun 06, 2016 at 23:22
For the older mechanical diesels you can skip the biodiesel and just run on straight filtered chip oil with a heater to keep the oil hot while running
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 22:34

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 22:34
Actually, vegetable oils make up to 30% of the volume in biodiesel fuel used in sizable numbers of diesel-powered vehicles in Europe - with most larger cities transport fleets nearly all running on high percentage vegetable oil, biodiesel.

The major sources of the oils used for biodiesel in Europe are rapeseed oil, palm oil, soybean oil, waste cooking oils, and waste animal fats.
Rapeseed oil is by far the biggest constituent of the oils produced for biodiesel.

The Europeans wanted to go to even higher levels of vegetable oils in biodiesel - but they are torn between using oil for fuel, or for food - and torn between reducing greenhouse gases or feeding people.

In Europe, the rapeseed oil producers were selling so much rapeseed oil for biodiesel use, that the margarine manufacturers started complaining that they couldn't get enough rapeseed oil for margarine production.

The EU Parliament has decreed that the upper vegetable or organic oil limit for all transport biodiesel sold in EU nations, is 7% vegetable or organic oils.

They wanted to go higher (France wanted 10% vegetable oil), but the EU Parliament was deeply concerned at the effect of recent droughts in cropping areas, and the need to place food production as a priority against biodiesel.

There was such concern about the food conflict situation, some German politicians called for the use of vegetable oils in biodiesel, to be banned.

So it is not actually whether that biodiesel is good for diesel engines - it is in fact, beneficial to diesel engines, and beneficial from the exhaust pollution angle - but it is detrimental to the food production supply line, to start using large quantities of vegetable oil for fuel.

In the following link is a test report covering the use of biodiesel at a mix of 50% vegetable oil (rapeseed) and diesel, over a period of 12 years - in a fleet of heavy prime movers, plus several light commercial vehicles.

Test report - 50% vegetable oil biodiesel

The prime movers were older style, indirect injection engines, and the light commercials were all Common Rail diesels.
Some of the engines did over 500,000kms during the test period on the 50/50 biodiesel mix.

The summary concludes that the engines suffered no ill-effects from the fuel and in fact benefited from a reduction in carbon levels within the engines.
There were engine failures, but none that could be attributed to the biodiesel.

Test Report Abbreviations KEY:
RME = Rapeseed Methyl Ester
LHV = Lower Heating Value (a calorific measurement)


Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 02:53

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 02:53
Interesting info Ron but you've gone off on a bit of a tangent if replying to my comment.
I was referring to straight chip oil/vege oil not biodiesel made from vege oil.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mark (Tamworth NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 07:35

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 07:35
Ron
I work in Agribusiness and follow grain markets for my job, I'm not a fuel expert but after 35 years I think I know about about grain & oilseed markets
There was NO shortage of rapeseed oil (called Canola Oil here) for Biodiesel.
It's all about cost, and for theoretical Carbon emission reasons, Vegetable oil is more expensive than Diesel. The Europeans have waxed and waned over the mandated level of vegetable oil inclusion into Biodiesel for years. The biggest supporters are the Green lobby and EU farmers, for whom the higher mandated inclusions have become a de facto price and income support mechanism.
EU concerned over supply due to droughts, that's not correct. EU primarily uses soybean oil for human consumption, which they buy (the beans and or oil) from South America
Mark
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 10:00

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 10:00
Mark, your opinion conflicts with all the evidence out there. The big drought of 2012 that seriously dented the wheat and oilseeds crop production of both Russia and the U.S., led to a great deal of angst and conflict about the Food vs Fuel argument.

In addition, there is great angst in Africa about the grab for land for biofuels, while many Africans are suffering from, or will potentially suffer from, food shortages.

There are EU Parliament directives covering the need to preserve grain and crop production for food, and thus the need to limit the amount of food crops going into biofuel. This brought about the EU directive to limit vegetable/organic oils voulme in biodiesel to a maximum 7%, rather than the 10% originally aimed for.

Biofuels - Food vs Fuel

Food or Fuel?

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mark (Tamworth NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 20:04

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 20:04
Ron this is getting way off topic, but you are wrong
I buy over 10 000T of Canola meal per year, $150 Million worth of other grains and fats & oils, I think I know what drive grain markets and where products are used. I look at the French Rapeseed Futures each morning (along with a dozen other markets). I've been doing this for over 25 years
The most severe global drought impacting grain supply was 2006-7, not 2012.
Grain prices were at record highs in early 2008, grain stocks at their lowest in 2007
The Russian drought was in 2010 (not 2012),China now certainly does
There is NO grab for land for Biofuels in Africa, I think you and or your reference are referring to the Amazon in South America for soybeans, which are primarily for protein meal demand into China. Africa produces precious little grain.
The EU does not specify Biodiesel inclusion levels, that is left up to the individual member countries (there may well be EU Fuel standards though). My employer has the largest Biofuel (ethanol) plant in the UK
Sorry those references are wrong, selectively cherry picking from various papers.
But by no means am I defending Biofuels.



Mark
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Reply By: Michael H9 - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 06:33

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 06:33
I've filled up a couple of times with it on trips. I have a crd Land Rover. Both times the car ran noticeably quieter and smoother. I'm not game to use it on a regular basis in case it wrecks some seals in the fuel system or similar. Luckily I don't seem to see bio diesel pumps very often to be tempted. I reckon it has been scared out of the market, people don't want to risk it.
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Reply By: Iza B - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 08:23

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 08:23
Seems you are already using some, at least,

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ba2007102/s7.html

note the date on the legislation.

Iza
AnswerID: 601087

Reply By: Hoyks - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 10:47

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 10:47
I used to run 100% in a '98 model Nissan Terrano II (2.7 turbo diesel, similar to a Navara)
I bought commercially made stuff 200L at a time and occasionally mixed in dino diesel when I ran out. I also filtered and added waste veggie oil on occasion (only about 5L into a tank full. They used to sell it from a servo at Hexham (near Newcastle NSW), but when they stopped stocking it, I found the factory at Rutherford and would go and buy it there. I was basically paying 1/2 the price the servo was charging, so it was a good deal.

In the 10 years I owned the vehicle I did 250000km and in that time I had 0 issues with the factory fitted gear due to bio diesel.

I fitted an additional filter to make sure any gunk wasn't going to leave me stranded and Ni$$an filters were dear as poison. One of the O rings in the filter assembly went a bit mushy after 3 years, just the one. It didn't leave me stuck, I just found it while doing a filter change and replaced it.

I did have a blocked fuel line due to the kids messing with my sophisticated filter medium (paper hand towel in a funnel) and some batter and a chip made it into the tank which conspired to block a banjo fitting on the additional filter. It did lead to power loss and a bit of head scratching when I got to work, but again not the fuels fault.

It does eat natural rubber and makes it go all mushy, even at the factory I bought the fuel from found it was eating the outside wrap on the 2" hose they used to fill the trucks, so unless you are sure the pump has viton seals, then I'd be cautious, cheap replacement fuel lines can be cause for concern too.
If it has had the injection pump rebuilt in the last 20 years, then it is a fair bet that the seals have been upgraded though.

I did some research; My vehicle was built in Spain, sold in Europe and was marketed there as being able to use B100, yet Nissan Au wouldn't commit to it being able to use any Bio diesel. I figured that they wouldn't be making special modification on a production like to make our vehicles incompatible, it didn't make sense.

Then fuel was $1.90L and I was paying $1, so I rolled the dice.

If you were really keen to use it, then take some sacrificial bits of hose, I'm sure you could cut 1/2" off a few bits and still have enough length, and soak them in some B100 for a month and see how it goes.

Caltex Vortex Diesel is 5-10% biodiesel BTW.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mark (Tamworth NSW) - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 11:43

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 11:43
Hoyks
I don't think any of the large fuel companies blend Biodiesel any more following Australia's only commercial Biodiesel producer at Barnawatha near Wodonga, went into receivership last year.
Biodiesel and Ethanol production are totally different systems

Mark
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Follow Up By: Hoyks - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 12:36

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 12:36
As of June last year, there were a few places still in production.
The other giveaway is to look at the Caltex Diesel SDS.
"CHEMICAL ENTITY CAS NO. PROPORTION
Diesel Fuel 68334-30-5 90-100%
Ingredients determined to be non-hazardous - Balance
________ 100%
It is a fair bet some of the 'non-hazardous' bit is biodiesel, it improves lubrication and cleans the fuel system, all the things they claim their premium fuels do.
https://go.lupinsys.com/caltex/harms/public/materials/c4f3f000b2314a62b9b6785e4006231a-published/attachments_api/af5e8d37a1591275ba6f9568661064ce/search_api/Automotive_Diesel_Fuel-SDS.pdf

Yes, diesahol is another animal again. Ethanol and diesel don't mix that well, so you have to add additional stuff to get that emulsion to work
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 21:46

Tuesday, Jun 07, 2016 at 21:46
Organic oils (vegetable oils) have been added to diesel as lubricity improvers, ever since ultra-low sulphur diesel was introduced.

That would explain the "non-hazardous" ingredients in the SDS.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 17:13

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 17:13
"Caltex Vortex Diesel is 5-10% biodiesel BTW"
Is it?
Never heard that before or used it but I thought if so, it must be labelled as Bio blend fuel?
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 21:39

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2016 at 21:39
I must say I'm surprised to find that Caltex actually produce no less than EIGHT different types of diesel.

I have no idea how you obtain the other varieties besides plain diesel and Vortex, they must be only delivered to large clients in bulk.

I have only ever seen Vortex and plain (Regular) Diesel at bowsers (Regular Diesel is "Diesel Fuel Unmarked" in Caltex-speak.)

The eight varieties of Caltex diesel are:

Active TecD
Alpine Diesel XLSD
Clean TecD
Diesel Fuel Unmarked (Regular Diesel)
Extra Low Sulphur Diesel
Highland Diesel XLSD
Power TecD
Vortex Premium Diesel

The three "TecD" fuels are high-performance, super-dooper diesel fuels with either; (A) extreme cleanliness of the fuel (Clean TecD) .. (B) a high dose of fuel system cleaning additives (Active TecD) ... or (C) diesel fuel with a combination of extreme cleanliness, plus the fuel system cleaning additives (Power TecD).

Naturally, the Power TecD diesel is the finest diesel product that Caltex produce.

The Extra Low Sulphur Diesel is self-explanatory. This is diesel with less than 10PPM of sulphur in it.

The Highland diesel and Alpine Diesel are cold-country diesels, with Highland diesel having a cloud point approximately 2 deg C below the CP limit as specified in AS3570.
The Alpine diesel has a cloud point approximately 4 deg C below the CP limit as specified in AS3570.

Vortex Premium Diesel is claimed to have .. "an advanced technology additive system which maintains fuel injector cleanliness, and through regular use, protects fuel system components, to ensure engines operate at peak efficiency and performance."

Caltex give no indication as to where Vortex Premium Diesel falls with regard to the other "Premium" TecD diesel fuels?

Nowhere is it stated that any of the Caltex fuels are classed as "biodiesel".
Many Euro diesel manufacturers insist that their engines are not to be fueled with biodiesel - so Caltex would know this, and they would not risk adding anything to diesel that was not approved by European diesel manufacturers.

It's all a bit of a mystery, and the SDS sheet tell us virtually nothing - apart from mentioning the "non-hazardous ingredients - that can range from 0% to 10% in their diesel fuels.

Caltex also produce two specifically-labelled biodiesels - B5 diesel and B20 diesel.
They state unambiguously that the B5 contains 5% Fatty Acid Methy Esters (vegetable/organic oils) and that the B20 contains 20% FAME's.

These fuels would be clearly labelled "biodiesel", and the B in the nomenclature is also the clue for the fuel users.

Cheers, Ron.
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