What chance do we have

Submitted: Monday, May 31, 2004 at 15:18
ThreadID: 13331 Views:1792 Replies:6 FollowUps:17
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Well went lookin for tires for wifes Pathy. Narrowed it down to Toyo OPAT, Coopers AT, (yokohama had a nice one like a BFG AT, but $289 for a 245!!), and Goodyear AT's which I couldnt find any to look at. Dude recommended me Hercules AT's which is a copy of BFG AT, but never heard of em, so would be bit risky..

Now to my story..

With experts giving out wrong info on tire sizes and legalities, what chance does the average pleb have?

Walked into a branch of one of the biggest sellers(wont mention names but he has a Big Jane at his T shop in the Mart) talking to the "GURU" there...

Me "Hi, ImLooking for AT Type tires for a 2001 Pathfinder, it comes with 245x70x16's standard"...

He said straight away before I finished said

Mr Guru - > "Go with the 265x75's, they fit on a stocky easy..."
Me "are they legal at that size on a Pathfinder?"
Mr Guru - > "Yes, we sell them to people all the time in that size"
Me "You sell heaps of them to people, but are they legal?"
Mr Guru - > "yes they are 100% sure of that. I've been in this game for 10 yrs *snicker*."
Me "But your only allowed 15mm more over standard size"
Mr Guru -> "Are you? Never heard that one before..."

Me shows piece of paper printed out from VICROADS PDF File
Mr Guru -> "Oh thats right you cant.."
*other 2 customers laughing didnt impress him*

Me -> walks out.

What chance would someones wife going in for tires on her box have? Then have crash, have no insurance, then go back to tire place who would then say He never said it...

Goto Tirepower Frankston, talking to the guru there Ive dealt with before BARRY COOPER (TOP BLOKE) he recommended Toyo OPATs in a 245x75 at just under $200. Sounds good..
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Reply By: Baz (NSW) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 15:58

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 15:58
I know that bloke there is one like him up here, after talking 4 or 5 of those dic*heads we went Don Cornells at Bexley, finally got a nice bloke who new his job and a good deal.

Baz.
AnswerID: 61027

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 16:03

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 16:03
He has ensured I dont go to anyother BJTMart stores if thats the level of knowledge, expertise and carefactor for people over $$...
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Reply By: Aston - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 16:57

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 16:57
Truckster (Vic)

The Hercules Tyre co is Canadian,
from what I have heard they're a reasonable tyre
try this link

link text

Cheers Aston
AnswerID: 61040

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 17:37

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 17:37
its just gettin my hands on one to look at in person.. none of the pics on the net look anything like the tires in real life....

thanks anyway
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Reply By: fat bastard - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 18:10

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 18:10
truckster if u had it in writing from the tyre joint, that the tyres were legal, would that cut any mustard down the track, ie they as tyre experts have a duty of care because as a novice we would be guided by them.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:38

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:38
I think you would have more chance with the standard excuse people use for everything these days
"I had a bad childhood"
or
"I was on drugs at the time, so wasnt responsible for my actions"

Whats the old saying, Ignorance is no excuse.. thats the way the courts work...
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 09:55

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 09:55
definitely T-Man, I doubt you'd get it in writing anyways. I recall ordering tyres that I had seen before and EXPLAINING the size to the tyre guy...235/85 means width in mm and tyre aspect - 16 means 16 inch, yes I know thats different metric and imperial but believe me Mr I AmGoingToPayYouForThese I know of which I speak.

It was like Christmas when I went to get them fitted I didnt know what was going to be supplied, I was astonished they were exactly what I wanted for an excellent price.

Makes you wonder.
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FollowupID: 322715

Reply By: Member - StevenL - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 18:24

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 18:24
Went thru exactly the same thing putting the Cooper A/Ts on the Prado. My maths says that going from 265/65R17 to 265/70R17 is an increase of 21.4mm. I did it anyway but the tyre expert was adamant that it was legal and said they had not heard of the 15mm rule! I asked at 3 places and got the same answer. hey just want to sell you the tyres.

Hang on a sec.... Is that Truckster posting about TYRES?????? Nahh couldn't be.

Steven

AnswerID: 61058

Follow Up By: bulldog - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 20:11

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 20:11
Steven be careful, i to was advised that the tyres i was to purchase were perfectly legal (an increase of 28mm) i got the tyres fitted and was later told by a mate that they were illegal. Somewhat panicky i cornered a guy at the Queensland rta and he said that technically they were over the maximum increase(15mm), but there are alot of 4wd out there in the same boat. uh ohh!! i did'nt want to be on that boat!!

So armed with the facts i rang tyre makers (Coopers), they more or less said the same as the rta. But i explained to him my obligations to the roads and traffic laws not to mention the insurance company. When i asked for something in writing they baulked and suggested i go back to the dealer.

Now to cut a rather long story short ,after heated discussions between me and the dealer he agreed to replace the tyres with the correct dimensions at a cost. No i said you told me they were legal and their not. After more discussions we agreed that i would pay for the fitting ($45.00) After having done approx 2300 kms on the originals i thought this was a fair compromise.

I now know that without an engineers cert, the maxium increase is 15mm. I probably would never have had any problems but have heard many horror stories regarding insurance payouts and did'nt want to give them an out.

Hope this helps anyone in the Same Boat ;)

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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:40

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:40
ve, try here.

Id rather give the insurance company 0 ammo...
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:41

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:41
Steve.
Try here for tyre calculator

Not bad gives you a good idea anyway...
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Follow Up By: Member - StevenL - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:26

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:26
Thanks Truckster,
Just what I needed to know! 776mm up to 802mm which means 26mm or just over 1 inch bigger. Even worse!!!!

I had actually already worked these figures out myself. The Cooper catalogue shows the OD for the 265/70R17 as 31.4" which is 797.6mm so there must be some differences across makes to the actual mathematical specs.

After the first 5,000kms they are probably worn down to legal anyway!!

Bulldog, Thanks for the advice. Hopefully when I get the next set there will be the right size available. I would have to be damn unlucky to be caught out on this issue given the amount of 4WDs going around with larger rubber fitted.

Steven
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 23:02

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 23:02
from Toyo OPAT brochure

265/70R17 802mm

the only 17inch they mention too.

I agree with the unlucky to get nailed for it.. with the amount of 4wds on the road with oversized tires and more, the cops could have us all off the road within weeks if they wanted!
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FollowupID: 322685

Follow Up By: Member - Rohan K - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 11:55

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 11:55
Steven, the claculations based upon the code, such as 265/70/17 are a "standard"/theoretical size only. Manufacturers have an allowable manufacturing varioance in the tyre size of +/- 3.0%. Simplistically, that means, for example, a 265/70/17 tyre may be anywhere from 791.7 mm (31.2") to 813.9 mm (32") in overall diameter.
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FollowupID: 322731

Reply By: Member - Brian (Gold Coast) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 18:31

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 18:31
Off topic slightly I know.... but we had an experiance with the "T" stores a few years ago.... wife was getting regular wheel alignments on our old Tarago.... she was always told to bring it back in 10 thou K's...and it ALWAYS needed alignment. A friend of a friend opened up a business, and we took it to him for a change... he pointed out to me that the adjusting equipment was rusted in place and hadn't been touched in years! Needless to say, we've never been back!
AnswerID: 61061

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:43

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:43
You should have gone back for one more alignment... then when they hit you for the coin, hit them with the lawsuit.
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Reply By: Savvas - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 09:30

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 09:30
245/75's are also illegal. They have a similar overall height to a 265/70, which is about 25mm larger than a 245/70.

Been there, done that. The Jack's also use 245/70 as stock.

The largest legal tyre size for a Jack/Pathy/Grand Cherokee/etc. is a 255/70. This gives you approximately 15mm overall diameter increase.
AnswerID: 61138

Follow Up By: Member - Rohan K - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 12:00

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 12:00
Savvas, that's only true if you accept a certain interpretation of the regulations and also rely only on the "standard" calculation of the overall diameter of a tyre based upon the codes of width/profile/rim.

I won't repeat it all here - a search will find the relevant threads - but I have it in writing (email) from the NSW RTA that my 245/75/16 Coopers are legal.
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Follow Up By: Dean - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 13:56

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 13:56
Rohan,

According to the Tyre and Rim Assoc., there is a differance in manufacturing sizes, but not 3%.

Apparently before the 15mm rule came in it was 3% bigger you could go, this is possibly where the confusion sometimes comes in.

When you look at tyre charts there is always a variation in brands for the same size, normally only mm's. However, some just simply list the T&RA size. eg. 245/70/16, 750mm.

Go into any tyre store and ask for their TRA manual, its good reading.

Regards

Dean

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Follow Up By: Member - Rohan K - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 15:05

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 15:05
It's actually in, and part of the Australian Standards, and is definitely +/- 3.0%. I have an extract and have an email from the Association that confirms it.

Both Simex and Pirelli have confirmed the 3% variance to me, in both conversation and writing.

Do you have something in writing from the T&RA, that contradicts the Standards, or is some number other than 3% actually specified in the T&RA manual? It would interesting if the T&RA contradicted the Standards and tyre manufacturers were ignoring it.
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Follow Up By: Savvas - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 15:44

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 15:44
Rohan ... You've got my attention.

I'll try sending a query to the RTA and see what they come back with. I'll let you know.
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Follow Up By: Savvas - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 16:58

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 16:58
Hmmm ... that was quick.

I go the "slippery eel" reply. I can fit anything as long as the overall wheel/tyre combination height doesn't increase by more than 15mm.

Rohan .. How did you get them to respond with the 245/75/16 being legal?
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Follow Up By: Member - Rohan K - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 18:42

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 18:42
lol Savvas.

Lots of emails containing lots of rational, logical argument and calculations (some of which I'm sure they didn't understand) but which they finally agreed made sense and was an acceptable approach to them.
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