LC Front diffs!

Submitted: Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:42
ThreadID: 13347 Views:2218 Replies:12 FollowUps:14
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I hear a lot on this forum about blowing 100 series Landcruiser front diffs. I'd like to know to what extreme conditions these vehicles were pushed. What conditions were they subjected to in order to do the damage.

I intend to "go bush" with my 100 series LC, but not "extreme four wheel driving". Being an ex-prospector I see no fun in being bogged etc (each to thier own I suppose). But in general bush usage, is one likely to blow a front diff?

Being an ex-Nissan owner, I find the prospect of damaging diffs a bit off putting. How serious is this problem?

Thanks,

Bilbo
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Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:51

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 21:51
We saw one gettin towed into Woods Point by a rusty old MK about ~2yrs ago..

The front end was banging badly as it went past, but why he didnt just remove the front driveshaft is beyond me.

Dude was just 'doing a firetrail' according to the owner when we asked on UHF... But that could mean anything to different people.

Lots had issues originally with lockers causing problems..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"But in general bush usage, is one likely to blow a front diff? "

You SHOULD be ok, but then anything can happen, you could have a Friday car and be a nightmare from day 1, or have a Wednesday car, and never have an issue.

luck of the draw
AnswerID: 61097

Follow Up By: crfan - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 10:34

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 10:34
The front end was banging badly as it went past, but why he didnt just remove the front driveshaft is beyond me.

If it was full time 4wd removing the tail shaft wouldnt stop the diff spinning as the wheels would drive it
If it was part time 4wd taking the hubs out and taking the thing out of 4wd would stop the diff spinning .....
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Follow Up By: Yobbie - Monday, Jun 07, 2004 at 19:23

Monday, Jun 07, 2004 at 19:23
Blew a front diff on friday in my 105series rigid front end. If its full time four wheel drive you can remaove the driveshaft and the two front hubs. lock the centre diff and that will get you home.
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Reply By: hoyks - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:12

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:12
I have "heard" that the front diff is the same as a Hilux but with a reverse cut on the teeth of the crown wheel. the failures I have been told of occurred while be snatched in reverse.

Like most of these stories, I heard it from a bloke who met a bloke etc.
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Follow Up By: Outnabout David (SA) - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 11:00

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 11:00
Hoyks,

You sure it is not the other way round. i.e the Hilux has the cruiser diff :-)
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Follow Up By: hoyks - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 17:44

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 17:44
chicken or the egg.
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Follow Up By: Yobbie - Monday, Jun 07, 2004 at 19:27

Monday, Jun 07, 2004 at 19:27
Ive blown 3 diffs (crown wheel and pinion) in 8 months in my cruiser. Yes they are a hilux diff. unfortunatley ive either got to get rid of the thing OR im looking at replacing the front fiff with a nissan one.
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Reply By: Member - Roachie- Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:13

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:13
Bilbo,
As usual, Truckies right on the moolar......
I'd love to know why you went from a Nissan to a Toyota (not trying to be a smartass). I could understand it if your Nissan had been a Series II GU 3.0 litre jobbie. You'd be hard pressed to break the drive-train of a Nissan under most circumstances, but certainly from what you describe as your planned travels, you'd have been okay.
Is your 100 series the independant front suspension model or the beam axle (just curious as I don't believe one is necessarily STRONGER than the other, just that the beam axle has better articulation)?
I would reckon you SHOULD be okay, but don't stray too far from civilisation IMHO.
Good luck on your travels.
AnswerID: 61102

Follow Up By: Bilbo - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 13:00

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 13:00
Roachie,

The Cruiser was purchased as part of a salary package deal - salary sacrifice etc. I bought a "Yota" to pull a van around "Oz" when I retire next year. The boss doesn't know yet and I won't tell him if you don't! I chose the "Yota" purely on towing power. I don't like 4 cylinder diesels - many years ago I was a truck mechanic and 4 cyl diesels were considered "Mickey Mouse" - so that means the 3.0L Patrol is out. The TD42 engine with a turbo doesn't come close to the "Yota" in power and torque.

HOWEVER,,,,,,,,I've had a 1989 Ford Maverick tray back ute since it had done 40,000 kms - it's now done 220,000 kms and used it almost exclusively in bush work as a prospector in WA. I still own this vehicle but it's not up to a round "Oz" trip in terms of comfort. I'd do the trip in it, but SWMBO wouldn't! So we got the "Yota" for touring "Oz" fer a year or two and I'll keep the Mav for prospecting when I get back - if I get back.

I know what you mean about Nissan drive trains - I couldn't break my Maverick in 14 years of hard WA bush prospecting. I've said it before and I'll say it again - "If I could get the Toyota's power and torque into a Nissan drive train, I'd be content".

Bilbo
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie- Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 14:15

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 14:15
Thanks for that insight Bilbo.....
I can see what you mean and I must admit (without all my Yota mates knowing of course) that I do acknowledge they are more powerful than the Nissan. I'd love to have the power and torque that the 4.2 T/Di Landcruiser has, so long as it was without all the electronic whiz-bang things that seem to go with it.
As I've siad before, if the money tree allowed it, I reckon the best option is to get my vehicle (strong drive train) and whack in a good Chev 6.5 litre V8 diesel, (no turbo needed but would be an option) and not a computer chip in sight. Power output and fuel economy would kill that of the Yota and it would still be simple (like the inside of my head!! LOL)
Oh well, I can always dream......
Catchya mate and all the best for your travels.....I'm sure you'll be okay.
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Reply By: Member - StevenL - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:39

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:39
Guys,

Just to expand this topic slightly, I am led to understand that the front diff on the 120 Prado is the same as the 100 series. Can anyone confirm this? If this is the case then this thread has obviously got some possible implications for me as well.

Steven
AnswerID: 61105

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:45

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:45
Search archives, I posted about that bloke that blew the complete front end, diff CV t/case etc.. bill was $20k for Yota...
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 00:18

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 00:18
Searched that was model b4
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Follow Up By: Phil G - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 07:04

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 07:04
Steven,

You've got nothing to worry about. Haven't heard of any diff breakages with the 120 series yet. The diff is bigger than the ones that break on the 90series. Not sure how it differs to the 100series.

The example that Truckster always quotes was a 90series.
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Follow Up By: Member -Bob & Lex (Sydney) - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 19:04

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 19:04
watch out for aircon probs though
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Reply By: Member - Pesty (SA) - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:58

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 22:58
Driven as they should be Bilbo I cant see a problem as there are thousands of them out there and only a couple on this forum blown up. Misuse would have to play a part there somewhere.
AnswerID: 61110

Reply By: awill4x4 - Monday, May 31, 2004 at 23:10

Monday, May 31, 2004 at 23:10
Most of the Yota's which break their diffs are ones which reverse under load. ie: trying to reverse back up a hill.
When you compare a Yota crown wheel with other 4x4s particularly Nissan and Pajero in the cross section (width) they do not have the meat in them compared to either. This is why you never hear of Patrols or Pajero's ever breaking crownwheel/pinion assemblies. CV joints? yes but never crown/pinion.
Whereas Yota's will shear teeth off the crownwheel.
Just be aware of what type of load you are putting on your front diff, particularly in reverse.
Regards Andrew.
AnswerID: 61111

Reply By: gonebush - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 00:08

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 00:08
I have questioned my local ARB store on the size of the front diff of the 100 series and was told that the live axle vehicles (105 series?) had the hilux rear diff and the IFS 100s had a smaller diff again. A member of our 4WD Club works for a diff/gearbox specialist and he says there is no shortage of work replacing 100 series front diffs, amongst other things.

I personally know of two that have blown front diffs - one was snatching in reverse in 4WD Low and the other was reversing a heavy caravan back up a slope in 4WD Low. I would not class either situation as extreme but reasonably routine and that's what the owners said as well.

Don't know about the Prado 120 front diffs but I am told that they have been beefed up after the problems with earlier models - the 90 series?

Larry
AnswerID: 61113

Reply By: Member - DOZER- Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 08:32

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 08:32
Gday everyone
The front diff in a 80/105 is the same size as a lux rear (or front for that matter)
The teeth on them are reverse cut and the pinion comes in on the top of the diff.
This means that the front lands of the teeth are cut straight and are driven on when going forward. The problem is when reversing, the back part of the teeth are cut at 45 deg, so transmitting power through them in reverse puts pressure on the gear teeth to move appart. Add to this that the weight of the cruiser is infront of the diff when reversing (as opposed to the rear diff reversing with the weight behind it) there is less chance of the front wheels breaking traction.
The design of the front hemisphere is not that helpful either, with two windows in it to put the gears in the middle and only one pin through the two sungears. If you put alot of pressure on the ring and pinion drive gears when one of those windows in the hemi is under them, there will be very little resistance to the teeth spreading appart. Putting an Air locker from ARB in there helps strengthern the setup because it has 4 pinions in the hemi and it is solid all round. This doesnt stop breakages however, just reduces them.
On outerlimits4x4 they talk about putting a GQ ctr in the 80 diff to get a strong setup....
Just be aware that if you need to reverse out of a tricky situation, use care, and resist putting the right foot down all the way, take a turfor
Andew
b4 you bag me out, walk a mile in my shoes, then your a mile away and have my shoes :)

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AnswerID: 61128

Follow Up By: Member - Pesty (SA) - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 11:53

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 11:53
Good one dozer someone putting in a word who sounds like they know what they are talking about. Cheers
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Follow Up By: Yobbie - Monday, Jun 07, 2004 at 19:40

Monday, Jun 07, 2004 at 19:40
I think you will find that the cruiser has a lux front diff, but not rear. The 105 series has a bigger rear than the 80 but unfortunatley not in the front. The front lux diff is weak weak weak, As a matter of fact ive broken 3 crown and pinions in 8 months. I used to own a 60 series - Ill always have a toyota but geez I with I never went past the old, but loyal, 60.
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Reply By: Bilbo - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 13:14

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 13:14
Thanks for the replies, guys. It seems that most diffs are blown as result of misuse. As Pesty says, If you use it as it was designed you shouldn't have a problem. But some are blown simply by trying to recover from a "situation" or reversing a van up a hill. The latter is not a good advert for the much vaunted Toyota Landcruiser. In a way, I'm happy that I kept my Ford Maverick ute for the rough stuff. But the Cruiser will carry me in comfort around "Oz" with odd offroad trip I suppose.

The other comments about "take a Tirfor with you", whilst they may be valid seem to speak volumes about the problem. If one can't reverse out of a "tricky" situation under the vehicles own power without worrying about bursting a diff, then it's a sad world. After all what's a 4WD for, if not for getting through (forwards or backwards) "tricky situations"?. Might as well buy a Commodore and a big Tirfor Hand Winch??

I wish Nissan would come out with 6 cylinder, turbo diesel that compares with the Cruiser. The TD42 is a great old engine but being an push rod motor, one can only do so much with it even with a turbo. Don't even mention 4 cylinder diesels, thanks.

Bilbo
AnswerID: 61169

Reply By: GUPatrol - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 13:41

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 13:41
Bilbo,

A friend of mine broke his and he really looks after it, treats it like a baby... Toyota replaced the whole front axle under warranty.

Another one broke while doing a stall start on a driver training session, basically it was pulling forward when he let it stall to simulate a real stall and it went bang...

None of the ones I know were the IFS ones.... Both were live axle petrol models

Will
AnswerID: 61173

Reply By: Bilbo - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 15:49

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 15:49
Mines IFS, turbo diesel. I like Roachie's idea about the Chev diesel transplant - simple but lotsa grunt.

I know my old Mav ute like the back of my hand, and other to a major engine block type breakdown, I know I can get it going one way or another. The "electronics" on new motors like the Cruiser etc, really do worry me in a "far away bush" situation. Ah, well, I'm stuck with now and I've still got the Mav if all else fails. My missus wanted me to sell the old ute but that truck was my home for a long time and I'll keep it till it either rusts away or I'm dead. Other than that I'll give it to a museum to show what a real bush truck used to be like!

Bilbo
AnswerID: 61192

Reply By: ianmc - Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 22:57

Tuesday, Jun 01, 2004 at 22:57
Oh what a feeling! Toyota!
The unbreakables , over two tonnes & fitted with a Hilux diff in front on the 80
and still cant get it right in the front with the later ones.
Diffs have been around for years & many with 2wd cars have had to back trailers & vans up a steep slope & done other unmentionables with them without trouble.
In 4wd you have the load spread over 2 axles so there is no excuse for breakages
unless they are horribly abused.
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Follow Up By: Bilbo - Wednesday, Jun 02, 2004 at 22:40

Wednesday, Jun 02, 2004 at 22:40
Ian,

I'm afraid that I agree with you totally.

Bilbo
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