troopy pulling to the left

Submitted: Tuesday, Mar 28, 2017 at 17:23

ThreadID: 134556 Views:5569 Replies:6 FollowUps:25

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Bob a3

Just had back brakes and new rotors, asked mechanic to check brakes and grease packing ..Replaced hub seals and done grease on front, not the pads. Got it back and pulling pretty bad to the left, feels like steering wheel wants to spring back to the left whilst holding it and driving. Problem wasn't there before. Tyres are good. I took it back and called in he had done manual alignment and changed tyres around on the front, said the problem was still there.He is still working on it, Any ideas? Bob

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Reply By: Malcom M - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 07:03

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 07:03

sounds like he got the wheel alignment wrong

AnswerID: 609777

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 09:38

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 09:38

maybe Malcolm, will get another done anyway, and wheel balance. will add on other reply, what mechanic said when I picked car up. Thanks Bob

FollowupID: 879652

Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 13:34

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 13:34

UNLESS the front axle has had a caster correction device fitted then the only thing which can be altered is the toe in.
Toe in adjustment will not cause a pull to one side.
Tyre balance also has nothing to do with puling to one side.

FollowupID: 879664

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 18:20

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 18:20

Thanks RMD just saw this, yes balance is usually different problem. It hasn't had a correction device before. The mechanic is saying a corr Thanks Bobection device will fix it, but had no problem before it went in?

FollowupID: 879669

Reply By: splits - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 08:07

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 08:07

Are the wheels spinning freely? You may have a seized brake caliper which is not an uncommon thing to find on any car. A new rotor would be thicker than an old worn one so unless he pushed the caliper pistons back into the caliper to make room for the rotor, it could be a very tight fit getting it in between the pads. If that is the case then the pad with the seized piston will be pressing firmly on the rotor and partially applying the brake on that side of the car only.

A problem like that should stand out a mile away to any mechanic but you never know.

Why did he use the old pads on a new rotor? That is not the usual thing to do.

The work that he did should not have change the wheel alignment

AnswerID: 609778

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 09:55

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 09:55

Sorry Split my question, wasn't very clear. He put new rotors on the back brakes with new pads, front wheels he only did hub seals and greased bearings.I picked the troopy up, said the wheels were spinning freely and then showed me print out with axel measurements,front axel highlighted castor, left +2.33 right +3.07 that was the one he highlighted , camber ,toe and total toe and setback and included angle were all included on the printout. He said Caster needed doing if I am right, and a kit to do it, $800 to do the job allup, just paid $ 860 for brakes and rotor etc, so not too happy, as was only getting things checked over before trip in may. Anyway thinking about it now. My problem is, no sign of any pulling or drifting until the the work was done? Thanks Bob

FollowupID: 879653

Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 13:48

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 13:48

Is the vehicle an IFS front end?

The caster will be the same both sides with a beam axle unless made that way by Toyota or the axle housing is twisted.

The mechanic may have greased the rh front brake disc. Are the pads contaminated with grease/oil? That will alter the friction of said items.
Has the rear axle shifted on it's mountings, ie broken centre bolt and axle not square with the centreline of vehicle, or the LH front spring bush stuffed and allowing the axle to move forward and therefore steering the vehicle heavily to the left.

What is total toe, setback and included angle? What do these refer to?

FollowupID: 879665

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 18:14

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 18:14

Hi RMD, not sure what IFS is. Castor 10 measurements were +2.33left and +3.07 right on the front axel, said next to it -0 45 [ +1.40 ] +0 45 Target Data was written above the +1 40. The toe setback and included angle were all written on this printout, from an alignment I think. Also on this printout camber individual toe total toe setback and included angle left and right. Also KPI. Rear axel measurements were there as well. It was the castor he said was the problem. I have since been to a friend who owns a tyrepower tyre place, and he said, maybe bearing a bit tight one side, etc, I do keep on top of maintenance, and get done when it is needed, I am no mechanic, so have to accept some things that are said.The mechanic did check stuff and has a good name, I just didn't want to spend another $800 on a castor set, and still have the problem , when it wasn't there before. Before I do anything in that area ,I will ask and check LH front spring brush, not sure about rear axel or mountings, but will also ask to check them.Also like you say maybe some grease on the pad. I f that is the case maybe over the next couple of weeks it will solve itself. I have had troopy since 99 so old, but good.Thanks for your reply Bob

FollowupID: 879668

Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 22:37

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 22:37

Hi Bob

IFS = Independent Front Suspension. 105's have a solid beam axle, so no need to worry.

I have a 105 and it pulled heavily to the left - my problem was fixed with a new steering damper. That is the stocky looking thing that goes across the front of the vehicle just in front of the diff.

Don't know why it fixed the problem but when it was replaced, the problem disappeared. It may pay to get them to check it to see if it is stuffed - good chance it is given age and km.

Cheers

Anthony

FollowupID: 879675

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 03:01

Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 03:01

thanks Anthony will check that out as well. Bob

FollowupID: 879677

Reply By: Malcom M - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 09:43

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 09:43

Is it tugging very hard to the left or more like drifting?
Is it doing this whilst driving, under braking or both?

Could he have left grease on the right rotor giving no right side braking?

AnswerID: 609783

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:02

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:02

Hi Malcom, only changed rotors and new pads on back wheels. Steering wheel feels like it wants to pull to the left a couple of inches whilst driving , if you just let go then it does pull quickly left, just driving and letting go of steering slow, it does drift over to the left, not like it only happens when braking, braking seems ok.I put more info on Splits reply,? thanks Bob

FollowupID: 879654

Follow Up By: Malcom M - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:06

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:06

Back to wheel alignment then.

FollowupID: 879655

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:11

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:11

Hi Malcom did you read my reply to Split about axel print out etc after I picked troopy up. Caster measurements. Thanks Bob

FollowupID: 879656

Follow Up By: Malcom M - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:40

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:40

Yeah but I can't remember what mine are for comparison.

Have you checked the tyre pressures?

Last resort, swap the wheel back again. Some tyres suffer from what is called 'radial pull' which gives them a bias in one direction.

FollowupID: 879659

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:53

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 10:53

I think the mechanic was going to try that after he first spoke to me,sounds like he has done most things, did also say he will swap front to back but don't think back ones are on , wheels on the front do have more lead on them when the tyres were put on new and balanced. I will take it and get front wheels balanced later. I have had troopy since 1999 , 1994 model, so have always looked after it, anyway will check around before getting casters done. wouldn't like to have them done and still find same problem, I am not convinced, thanks for your suggestions Bob

FollowupID: 879660

Reply By: splits - Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 21:50

Wednesday, Mar 29, 2017 at 21:50

Bob

Caster is supposed to keep the car running straight ahead, not cause it to pull to one side.

Look at this short DVD.Swivel Hub

Just before 3 minutes into it he lifts off the outer section of the swivel hub that the wheel is attached to. He then uses a punch to knock out the top and bottom bearing seats that the whole front wheel and hub assembly pivot from side to side on. It is the location of those bearings that gives you a caster angle.

If the car was at its correct ride height and you were to look at it from side on with the hub stripped down to this stage, you would see that the top bearing is slightly further back towards the rear of the car than the bottom bearing. This means a line passing through the centre of those bearings is not vertical to the road, it is leaning back slightly. That is your caster angle.

The wheel and its bearings are mounted on a stub axle that is swinging from side to side on this off vertical line so as you turn the wheels, the stub axle on one side lifts the wheel up slightly causing the car to drop a little while the wheel on the other side goes down a little causing the car to be lifted. You won't notice this while driving but if you turn around a corner then let go of the steering wheel, it will spin back to the straight ahead position. If the centre line of the bearings was vertical, there would be no change in the height of the car from side to side and the steering wheel would not self centre.

The more caster you have the harder it will be to turn the car off the straight ahead position and the quicker the steering will self centre.

The location of those bearings is fixed so the caster is not adjustable. There are kits available that can be fitted into the lower bearing to change its location by a type of eccentric cam. That is what your mechanic wants to install but it should not be necessary.

A mechanic working on wheel bearings or brakes is not going to touch those swivel hub bearings so the caster should not change. It the car was steering straight before the work was done then it should be doing the same after it.

AnswerID: 609799

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 02:56

Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 02:56

Thanks Split for that info,I will watch link. I am not very mechanicly minded, so rely on mechanic,, I do like this mechanic , and just think if it was ok before should be after, from what has been done. Will wait it out a bit before I head bush prospecting in a few weeks. Thanks again Bob

FollowupID: 879676

Reply By: swampy - Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 13:11

Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 13:11

hi
caster readings , no more than 1deg diff between Lhs and Rhs
vehicle will pull to the side with the most positive caster
If camber and toe are way different than spec they will pull
If he has rotated tyres this can cause pulling to one side
To verify this swap tyres left to right on the front
King pin bearings need doing at least every 100,000kms
Worn kingpin bearings do cause steering to drift

AnswerID: 609813

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 13:42

Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 13:42

Thanks swampy troopy hzj75 is 94 model and I have had it since 99, so had lots done over the years, will check and see about kingpin bearings. vehicle done 360,000 kms, always been a good vehicle so have stuck with it. just had new clutch fan, waterpump etc, which were overdue for changing, engine doesn't like long hills ,when towing avan and gets a bit hot, but drops back so try to avoid problems when on the road, so I try to get checks done first.Thanks for infoBob

FollowupID: 879685

Follow Up By: Nutta - Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 22:48

Thursday, Mar 30, 2017 at 22:48

As you said though, it wasn't doing it before you dropped it in, I'd be switching wheels left to right or front to back as suggested, cant be much else, especially if its only doing it driving at speed and not braking.

FollowupID: 879697

Follow Up By: RMD - Friday, Mar 31, 2017 at 16:55

Friday, Mar 31, 2017 at 16:55

If it wasn't pulling to one side BEFORE the service work and if caster hasn't been altered then caster is not the problem.

Contrary to what Swampy mentioned, A vehicle will pull to the LEAST positive camber side and not the most positive camber side.So not quite right there!

The most positive has the greatest effect in turning the wheel therefore it steers to the LEAST positive camber side.
Most Aussie vehicle will benefit from a slight increase in LHS caster to fight road camber. ie, If LHS is greater then it will favour the steer to the right, "slightly".

FollowupID: 879705

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Friday, Mar 31, 2017 at 21:15

Friday, Mar 31, 2017 at 21:15

I saw another mechanic today gave it a quick check , found a lot of play on the front wheels, rt wheel clunked more that the left when he gave them the hug and push and pull, so not good.Surprised the mechanic when he had it back where it was done, hadn't found that. That is just not good. Young mechanic did the job ,but obviously the owner mechanic ,hadn't checked the work done. Anyway going to have it checked again next Thursday,at the new mechanic,he said probably should have put new bearings in, instead of putting old ones back. He will take them out and see .Hoping for the problem being solved. Thanks for your input. Bob

FollowupID: 879706

Follow Up By: swampy - Sunday, Apr 02, 2017 at 17:25

Sunday, Apr 02, 2017 at 17:25

hi
Rmd care to explain sure u meant caster not camber
Typical default on a basic vehicle might start out at
As with all things there are variations
Lh -1/4 deg camber
RH up to 0deg or +1/4 deg camber
This causes car to climb the camber /hill in the road

Yes I meant least pos caster

For a bit of history rwd cars run a lot of pos caster and some a lot of neg it all depends, that also includes there reactions to incorrect settings .

FollowupID: 879731

Reply By: swampy - Sunday, Apr 02, 2017 at 17:39

Sunday, Apr 02, 2017 at 17:39

HI
BOB a3
The front end
Good practice is to set cruiser hub bearings up with a pull scale 4-6kg load.
Set the bearing shims stacks equally top and bottom . works 99% time
If u donot preload bearings correctly they will not last
To loose a bearings and cruisers wander all over the road at will .Vehicle has no directional confidence .

2nd
When the hubs /axles are pulled . Inspect where the inner seal runs on the axle .
99% chance they will be scored . Have these metal sprayed .

3rd not often done there are tools to set axle centre height . Its a pain to do . Only ever done when the vehicle has serious problems

AnswerID: 609862

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Sunday, Apr 02, 2017 at 17:56

Sunday, Apr 02, 2017 at 17:56

Thanks Swampy, will print off , and show mechanic if problem is still there after Thursday. I will put follow up after he has got bearings in correctly, and hopefully sorted. Whatever they did on that front end with bearings still loose and repacking they did,seems to be the only reason the problem came. aarrghh,Makes you lose faith a bit.New mechanic commented how the hubs were greasy, and hadn't been cleaned up after being done also. Thanks again Bob

FollowupID: 879736

Follow Up By: swampy - Tuesday, Apr 04, 2017 at 07:01

Tuesday, Apr 04, 2017 at 07:01

hi Bob a3
Hub repair on cruiser takes 7-8 hrs to do
washout repack wheel brgs
washout ,repack c/v joints
washout repack hub
install swivel hub brgs
set preload on hub brgs
separate axles from cv joints for axle weld

Its a messy job

FollowupID: 879787

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Tuesday, Apr 04, 2017 at 10:31

Tuesday, Apr 04, 2017 at 10:31

Sounds to me like swampy has nailed it.

Another factor that can effect the life of the top and to a lessor extent bottom swivel bearings on part time 4WDs is when manual locking hubs are fitted , the hubs should be engaged from time to time to spread a little grease to the mainly upper bearing. They can get a bit dry if 4WD is not engaged regularly.

Personally I have fitted a grease nipple in place of the housing plug and give each a squirt every time I grease the vehicle.

Cheers
Pop

FollowupID: 879795

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Wednesday, Apr 05, 2017 at 09:17

Wednesday, Apr 05, 2017 at 09:17

Thanks Swampy and Pop, I am taking all this info on board, I do engage 4wd drive every now and again, but probably not enough. Anyway will drop it off later today, and see what happens tomorrow when he takes wheels off and checks it out. My fingers are crossed Ha. Bob

FollowupID: 879818

Follow Up By: swampy - Thursday, Apr 06, 2017 at 13:38

Thursday, Apr 06, 2017 at 13:38

Hi
There are also brass bushes in the stub to inspect for wear .

FollowupID: 879869

Follow Up By: Bob a3 - Saturday, Apr 08, 2017 at 19:34

Saturday, Apr 08, 2017 at 19:34

Hi swampy, got troopy back yesterday, still drifting a bit, not sure if it is any different at all. Looks like he has done most of what was on your list, new bearings, ,front swivel overhaul RandR swivel bearings and looks like wiper seals? R and R axel seals.R and R free wheeling and locking hub gaskets, front diff oil replaced, washed out CU's and replaced grease. R and R which is removed and replaced? right hand tie rod end. Not sure about brass bushes in stub, although he did show me some rims off bearings which had marks on them, which were changed. Had another alignment. Also did say about my old leaf springs probably could be changed been on since 1994, said you may get a clunk every now and again as shift a bit? Well $3,000 down since starting with Clutch fan ,water pump etc. he did mention Parabolic Springs, instead of leaf, what do you know about them. Thanks Bob

FollowupID: 879955