What the hell is a DPF

Submitted: Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 17:06
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Just finished reading the sad story re the Prado being engulfed in flames on the Canning. Being the owner of a 2000 Model Deisel Troopy, could someone explain what a DPF is and whats this about DPF cycling.

Cheers......................Jeff
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Reply By: Frank P (NSW) - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 17:11

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 17:11
Diesel Particulate Filter. It does what it says but periodically needs "cleaning". It does this by burning raw fuel which creates very high temperatures.

DPFs are pretty new on the scene - my 2014 vehicle doesn't have one so your 2000 Troopy is pretty safe :-)

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Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 20:52

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 20:52
Yep, basically a device required by the Greenies to make our touring vehicles less efficient and more dangerous.
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Reply By: Dean K3 - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 17:55

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 17:55
This link may help abit.

consider it to be a newer version of a catalytic convertor, except it traps particles not "modifies" them then like all filters needs to be cleaned up abit by various method as discussed in the link

http://www.jlmlubricants.com/en/how-diesel-particulate-filters-work
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Reply By: garrycol - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 18:35

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 18:35
Why not simply Google DPF and all will be explained.
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 21:26

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 21:26
Here you go Garry. Info passed on to all readers by Gone Bush." By the way, by reading this Thread you now know more about these issues than every new vehicle salesman in Australia, combined."
Dave.
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Follow Up By: Member - Trouper (NSW) - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 08:12

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 08:12
Garrycol.
Yes I could have easily 'google' but thought it might be of interest to other users of this forum. It helps to create conversation.
If we googled everything ExplorOz would not exist....... Wake Up
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:08

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:08
Mate, because you are lazy we are not here to do you your work for you. For sure if you had searched and had no luck that is different. Eg the thread about information on his sleeping bag - clearly was having no luck searching first so came here asking for information - all good.

Search first - ask second.

Lazy sod



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Follow Up By: skulldug - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 22:20

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 22:20
garrycol,

Angry fool. Not willing to help. Not willing to be part of anything positive and not smart enough to know any different.

Go google yourself.






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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 05:05

Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 05:05
Garrycol, what are you here for except calling people names which I must admit is one of your better talents
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Reply By: rocco2010 - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 19:50

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 19:50
Gidday

Was talking a week or so ago to a guy from the Esperance region who told me of a Ford Ranger lost in a paddock fire due to the DPF deciding to do its thing.

Yet another hazard of car ownership.

Cheers
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Reply By: Gone Bush (WA) - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 20:13

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 20:13
Geez Jeff,

Let's not even start talking about EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation), or ADBLUE, which is basically pouring fertilizer (UREA) into your fuel system.

Here's a picture of a 200 Series engine with all the black gunk left in it by manufacturers forced to comply with emissions requirements.



The same engine after having been cleaned.



Every modern diesel engine will look the same.

By the way, by reading this Thread you now know more about these issues than every new vehicle salesman in Australia, combined.

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 20:32

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 20:32
A catch can helps with this. Should be standard OEM equipment, IMO.
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 20:46

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 20:46
Gone Bush

Couple of questions - if you don't mind!

How long would it take for it to get in that condition?
The cleaning process looks detailed (given the changes in the two photos), how long does it take and is it something you would rely on your service dealer to do?
Is there any way to avoid the congestion (additives, catch cans as suggested)?
Briefly, what is the cleaning process?

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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 21:53

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 21:53
Anthony,

I thought it would take a long time but I have seen photos like that of an engine from a 70 Series after only 30,000kms.

It's not something a Dealer would do. They probably wouldn't even be aware of this happening. I'm not sure how long it would take to clean, I haven't had mine done yet (it's on the list).

If you are on Facebook check this site and scroll through the posts and photos.
Locked-in-Garage

I recently had an HPD Catch Can fitted by Locked-in-Garage. It has a dipstick and there is already about 10mm of oil in it. They are very easy to fit, about a 15 minute job.

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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 05:43

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 05:43
Gone bush good photos. Yep, they all suffer from the gunk left from a mixture of oil and recirculated exhaust. On the 70 series V8 that amount of buildup would be about par for course even with the engine working all the time. Probably the worst for buildup are Tritons.

As Frank said, catch cans are the go for reducing it.

Just one thing is, I wouldn't like to add adblue to the fuel system as that would be fatal as some have found when they accidentally put it in the fuel tank.

Adblue is injected into the exhaust and the biggest downside is. Extra expense of adding it, not using low quality cheap adblue and the maintenance of the adblue injection system and sensors.

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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 09:50

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 09:50
A catch can (or EGR block) is only needed if your vehicle is fitted with the EGR system, where when not under load, the EGR valve puts some exhaust gases (and particulates) back into the intake system, to quieten power down and burn excess NOx.
Of course with the PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) system putting oil mist back through the intake system, they combine to form that lovely black gunk, that builds and builds in the intake manifold until performance is gradually reduced and affecting how the engine runs.

EGR is a dirty, cheap (for the manufacturer) system to satisfy some emission issues, but is getting phased out I think with DPF and Adblue type methods (both with their own issues of course !).

IMHO, although illegal, I feel an electronic EGR block is going to be far better for the environment after x km, rather than how badly these engines will run when all blocked up from that black tar.
This is effectively what Volkswagon did deliberately in secret resulting in their emissions debacle a little while ago !!
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:02

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:02
9900,
yes I should have been a bit clearer on Adblue. As you said, a lot of owners of vehicles that use Adblue are very poorly informed by their Dealership and add the product to their fuel tanks. After all it is usually dispensed from a bowser next to the fuel bowsers, and it has "ad" in its name. This product used to be confined to big trucks but it is becoming widespread. The new Ford Everest uses it. A baby family 4 door SUV.

Les, PK,
I'm sure you would frequent Ford Ranger forums, and I'm equally sure that DPFs are a "hot" topic there. DPFs do not crack a mention in the Ranger part the Ford website.

I think it's disgraceful that these companies, including Toyota, build in a system that will ultimately kill our engines simply to comply with emissions requirements. Of course, the engines will outlast the warranty and by then they don't care.

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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:12

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:12
Indeed Gone Bush, I've read a bit about the PX DPF, and now with the Everest etc moving to Adblue, we'll see a lot more issues as people are unknowing about how these things work / affect our vehicles long term.

I'm glad to have the PK Ranger with EGR, catch can fitted about 30k mark, EGR taken care of with a very clever module about 70k, now on 140k, runs great, not sure how this will affect just how long the engine will go . . . less wear from particulates going into the engine I guess is good.

Things like the fuel injection / pump type maintenance / replacement will likely be the next thing I'll have to do.
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Reply By: Ron N - Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 22:32

Sunday, Jun 25, 2017 at 22:32
Trouper - All you ever want to know about DPF is in the video link below.

It's also explained by an Aussie (so you can understand him), and tells you all about Australian emission rules and vehicles (not 'Murrican stuff), in a straightforward, professional, and clear manner.

DPF explained

Cheers, Ron.
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Reply By: Member - Trouper (NSW) - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 08:18

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 08:18
Thanks for the info now all clear.
Isn't it great when we ask questions on ExplorOz the responses we receive . Instead of just 'Googling' it as Garrycol suggests
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 09:55

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 09:55
Yes, it's important to know how the EGR and PCV valve work together to make this a real issue . . . without one or the other the problem is negated somewhat, as the tar doesn't bulid.
Having both the EGR effectively blocked (though illegal) and catch can fitted is a great idea for many of the engines they are fitted to, as even the particulates can build on the MAP sensor (manifold absolute pressure) and start to cause bad readings over time.
This little sensor gets coated in that gunk, and not sure how they can give any sort of reading out.
You ask a dealer about cleaning the MAP (and MAF, mass airflow)) sensors, they give you a strange look apparently.
I don't know, gave up on them after first service when my Ranger came home with oil dripping from the front cross member, but it's very easy to clean these.
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Reply By: Dean K3 - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 19:32

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 19:32
Les-Pk yep that one of the few things I know have to be looked on my Prado - know I get a surging at 2000 rpm when goign up a moderate hill, so hoping that's a easy fix, got can of MAF cleaner this afternoon - job for tomorrow morning when engine cold
.
allan-gone bush WA - think I mentioned the Adblue in Prado csr link, about small cars from europe having adblue tank - this is why they fill tank up at servicing instead of plebs having to fill tank themselves stop people from mixing the two and probably having a bad mix of 2 stroke fuel in some respect.

heavy haulage does have a separate tank holding 50L or more to (hopefully) have enough to do the trip seen a few road houses have a 20l adblue container on shelf just like they stock engine oils. The engine will however de-rate (badly) if adblue runs out on a journey

The more i think about modern diesels more I want to go back to old school land rover -ex adf should be basic enough pity coins not there to get hand on one
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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 19:43

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 19:43
Dean, I used to clean the MAF and MAP every service myself, just after the mech did the general service work.
This was pre catch can / EGR fix.

Usually the MAF (air filter housing) has a negligible amount of dust on it . . . the MAP (intake manifold) is the one that really gets gunked up.

Since eliminating the problem from both EGR and PCV systems, both sensors only need a check once a year, usually they are very clean but I just give them a hit with the CRC sensor spray anyway while they're out.
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Reply By: Member - Wildmax - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 16:08

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 16:08
Do any of the current 2017 model dual cab utes NOT have a DPF?
Trying to decide on my next vehicle.
I have heard that the Isuzu D-Max does not have the troublesome DPF, but it appears pretty much every other make does.
Thanks
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Follow Up By: Dean K3 - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 20:08

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 20:08
Doubt it know the iveco 4x4 has adblue system,

kinda of a dual cab ute is available in their line up pending willing to pay the coins. advantage is higher off ground and "hopefully" not as prone to fire risk as lower slung 4wd's

Just sayin
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 23:08

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 23:08
Wildmax - From the "horses mouth" (below).

I must apologise, that I'm just a Google-referrer, and a "cut and paste" merchant .... [;-)

"Does my (Isuzu D-Max) diesel vehicle have a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter)?

For vehicle models earlier than 16.5MY, they are not fitted with a DPF.

16.5MY and later vehicle models are fitted with a Diesel Particulate Defuser (DPD) that purifies Particulate Matter (PM) in exhaust fumes".

Isuzu Ute - Owners FAQ's

Isuzu call it a DPD, it's a DPF by any other name.

Maybe someone asked if the D-Max had a DPF, and a salesman said "No!" (and he was technically correct, as he's been told it's a DPD) ...

I think the greatest PIA is having to do a DPF regeneration around every 500kms! (from what I've read in a motoring report, and that info may not be necessarily correct).

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 20:55

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 20:55
Thanks Ron - looks like we're stuck with that annoying "enhancement" regardless of which vehicle we choose !!
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 19:42

Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 19:42
Adrian, your too hot for some thread has got me interested in DPF's given I have one.

I have searched the internet and found lots of stuff, mostly on forums where DPFs can cause grass fires. Interestingly every grass fire incident I could find was associated with a diesel Prado, mostly pre DPF. All of those started at the rear of the vehicle under the rear of the vehicle. Some date back to about 2006.

There has been much speculation that the fires started in the rear brakes.

Do you know the circumstances of what caused the one you witnessed yet?

regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 22:12

Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 22:12
Hi Tony,
I doubt we will ever know exactly what happened - the vehicle went from pristine to charred wreck in five minutes, and we were focused on personal safety.
But what we did see in the lead-up (we were the following vehicle) was a few spinifex spot fires on the track behind them. So we called up on the radio to get them to stop, put out the spots and cleared under the vehicle.
Then the same problem occurred about five minutes further down the track, and then fire seemed to be under the whole vehicle - but concentrated on the centreline (ie, driveshaft/exhaust).
We emptied two extinguishers to no avail, but as there was continuous spinifex between the wheel ruts and alongside the track, there was no clear space to stop - hasty retreat by all as the fire took off through the scrub.
You could be right about the brakes, but my money would still be on fuel and/or hot exhaust system components.
Interestingly, this was a brand new Prado and the third vehicle in our group was an earlier model (around 2009 I think). That collected plenty of spinifex but no sign of combustion.
Our Hilux was unaffected - though we have a higher lift and much more underbody protection.
Cheers,
Adrian
PS: Our friends are back travelling with their new vehicle (full insurance cover), and now face mud and floodwaters on their way to Birdsville - you certainly can bank on variety in this wonderful country of ours!!
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 07:29

Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 07:29
Thanks Adrian.

I hope we can all learn from the experience.

The reason for the spanish inquisition is that I am trying to understand when and how the DPF regeneration process works so people can hopefully avoid such problems

My manual and from what I can find on Toyota web sites says that there are 2 ways that the DPF cycle can start apart from in the workshop.
1)Normal regeneration - Sustained driving over 60kmph for about 30 mins or more. There is enough heat in the normal exhaust gas to do the job.
2)Manual regeneration. When the car has not been over 60 kmph for some time, a manual regeneration is required. A light or buzzer comes on and you have to press a button.

My dash also shows how long to go before a regeneration is required. ( as a bar graph).

It *sounds like" the exhaust temps for 1 as the same as for a pre DPF, so with my limited knowledge the problematic situation is the manual way.

I am wondering if your friend, and others started a DPF cycle as told to do by the dashboard, without knowing the consequences. It did say not to start the cycle in grass or stop over grass after a cycle.

If there is a mechanic familiar with DPF, especially Toyota for me, it would be great to hear what they think.








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Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 16:07

Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 16:07
Yep Tony, it is a subject well worth researching.
Interestingly, I'm told the new Hilux does not have a button for manual regeneration (unlike the 200 Series); not sure if there is one in the Prado, but maybe not as it's the same engine as the Hilux.
Not sure what actions my mate had taken re a manual re-gen after lots of slow driving on the Canning, but as he didn't mention it then I suspect nil.
Can't ask him as he is now back on the road hoping to get through the mud to Birdsville in his new Prado - certainly no fire risk for him at present!!
If I hear anything further which throws light on the cause, I'll let you know.
Cheers
Adrian
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Reply By: Gone Bush (WA) - Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 10:43

Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 10:43
Here's a picture of the Landcruiser DPF.

Bulky isn't it?



Here it is, right next to the transmission. Anecdotal evidence suggests it may be contributing to higher transmission fluid temperatures in the Landcruiser.

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Reply By: The Bantam - Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 16:05

Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 16:05
remember there is a problem with all vehicles and all exhaust systems operated in dry grass country.

That is highly flamable dry grass getting involved with the exhaust system and catching fire.

It happens regardless of there being a DPF.

It is something everybody should be aware of.

Jack Absalom mentioned it in one of his videos way back in the 70's.

If you are traveling in dry grass country you should be carrying some form of hook, to clear grass from under your vehicle and some means of wetting/ extingushing grass under your vehicle ....... a garden sprayer or large squirt bottle.

AND you should be aware of the problem and inspect regularly

cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 16:09

Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 16:09
Thanks, I'm certainly very conscious of it now - and started my thread on "Canning: Too Hot for Some" to help ensure others were informed about the risks.
We were all doing regular checks under the vehicles and using a wire hook, but when this fire took off two extinguishers just couldn't compete.
Cheers
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 22:31

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 22:31
the problem with under vehicle fires is getting access to put the fire out ...... the extinguishers probably where not getting to the seat of the fire.

This is why jack Absalom recommended the use of a long garden sprayer.

It is long enough to get under far enough and the bent snout will get in behind and under stuff ...... like in behind sump guards and up into the tranny tunnel

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 23:25

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 23:25
The extinguishers were more than likely ineffective because they would have been the normal ones that are carried in cars - Dry Chemical.

Jack Absalom's method would be more effective because the extinguishing medium is water. Water is more effective on carbonaceous fuel fires.

As I said before, I carry a water extinguisher in spinifex country - rechargeable in the field and has good penetration because of the pressure. Downside is weight. But then I don't carry the alcohol a lot of travellers do.

Cheers

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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Sunday, Jul 16, 2017 at 16:22

Sunday, Jul 16, 2017 at 16:22
Having a DPF vehicle for the first time, Wildmax's Canning article certainly got my attention.

I have been doing some research on the internet and on my vehicle to understand what happens in a DPF vehicle.

Almost every grass fire incident I can find seems to be a diesel Prado, back to about 2005 and most people attribute the back brakes. The fires seem to start right at the rear.

My Instruction manual says not to park in long grass and leave the engine running.

The manual also says that the only times the DPF regen cycle happens is when driving over 60 kmph for a while, or manually.. My display shows the progress of build up. 1 2 or 3 bars. If I stay under 60 it will build up, then go back to zero if I drive at 60kmph plus for 15 mins or more.

I haven't got it to the point where it will allow manual DPF. I guess that is 4 bars.

I will keep an eye in it but think that the most dangerous time might be if I have a DPF build up, then drive at 60 plus ( regen) for a while then drive over grass. I guess that could happen on the Canning and other similar tracks.

I intend to understand the DPF behaviour more.





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