The care and feeding of your DPF

Submitted: Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 16:28
ThreadID: 135450 Views:4993 Replies:9 FollowUps:58
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Since I am in the process of buying a new diesel powered tow vehicle which will mainly see duty dragging our van around, and of course the odd bit of sight seeing, I thought I might do a bit of research on the above subject. This considering that the fitment of these devices seems to be the latest attempt by manufacturers to make diesel exhausts as clean as mountain air.

From what I have been able to understand, a DPF is little more than, as the term implies, a filter to catch soot particles which is a "natural" and apparently extremely carcinogenic, byproduct of burning diesel fuel. Along of course with a bunch of other nasties.

By all indications, I shouldn't have gotten anywhere near to my present 3 score years and 10 and not have long ago departed this mortal coil, so to speak. Having spent most of my working life driving, tuning, trouble shooting, re-building and dyno testing these dispicable machines.

Anyway, it appears that the "stuff" the average DPF captures is basically soot, carbon or somewhat unburnt particles present in exhausts. Now my understanding is that black smoke was an indication of overfueling or lack of sufficient oxygen or too low a temperature to achieve efficient combustion Now like any filter, a DPF can only trap and contain a certain amount of particles.

When the quantity becomes too great to permit the flow of exhaust gasses below a certain value, a "regeneration" process takes place. This basically raises the temperature in the exhaust system and therefor the DPF, basically "burning" off the excess load that is blocking up the filter medium. Apart from a rather acrid smell there is also a quantity of ash which is theoretically expelled from the exhaust pipe.

All good for some variable period, depending on vehicle usage.
Unless I misunderstood the reason, the fitment of exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) features was to lower the combustion temperatures and therefor the reduction of nitrous oxides (NoX???) or some such. The lowering below optimum combustion temperature of pretty much any fuel, results in incomplete combustion.

Ever watched a dog chasing it's tail. Unless the dog is very flexible or it's tail abnormally long it rarely catches it. (;-((

Cheers
Pop
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Reply By: RMD - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 17:09

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 17:09
I missed the Care and Feeding bit somewhere!
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 19:09

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 19:09
Try reading from "regeneration" onwards.

But I did try to not make a mini series about it....lol

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 23:16

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 23:16
I read again and see no care plan or what it should be fed at all. Statement about how it operates but what is the care and the feeding?
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 00:17

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 00:17
Sorry RMD if my bit of poetic licence escapes you and my abbreviated and incomplete explanation of the operation, "feeding" and subsequent, "care" didn't quite meet your expectations.

For a more complete description of the requirements from an owner/operator point of view I would suggest try our friendly source of information Mr Google. Or maybe you have a better source of information.

Maybe typing in "Basic principles of operation and regeneration of a DPF" will assist. I'm sure you will get all the details and scientific terminology you may need.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: RMD - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 19:35

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 19:35
I thought you were trying to justify buying something which you don't really want to buy so no one can tell you later you shouldn't have. It is a psychological thing.
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 09:37

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 09:37
Very perceptive. You are right, I think it is a deep seated psychological trauma from my childhood. My dear old long departed Mum would give me peanut butter sandwiches in my school lunches and I had to face the ridicule of those kids that had the much preferred Vegemite.

Hench the "care and feeding" subject heading and the yearning to correct an unhappy experience from younger years.

You not in the psychoanalysis business by any chance???

I feel much better for having got that off my chest. (;=))

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 21:03

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 21:03
Pop, I had peanut butter and vegemite mixed in the same sandwich.

Still my favourite. You should try it.

Yummo.
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Follow Up By: OutBack Wanderers - Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 11:20

Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 11:20
In order to regenerate a DPF, one needs to, every fortnight, drive for half an hour, over 90 kph to burn out the filter. So nick off to your favourite spot, have a glass of wine, watch the sun set or smell the roses (in season) and drive back home OR

just keep driving until it goes in limp mode and then head towards your Service Dept. of your favourite dealership for a DPF regenerate on one of their machines

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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 11:32

Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 11:32
Gone Bush,

Peanut butter, or as us from a lower social strata would refer to it, Peanut paste..
AND Vegemite on the same sanger....all right for some.........LOL

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 15:24

Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 15:24
Yah pop, always have and still called it peanut paste, same as i always put black sauce on a pie. Go south of the boarder and they look at you strangely when you do that.

Must admit I have't tried feeding a dpf with those, I think it may get indigestion.

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 11:44

Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 11:44
It's peanut paste because there is no lactation involved in it's production.
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Follow Up By: OutBack Wanderers - Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 22:13

Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 22:13
So, why do they call it Peanut Butter?

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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 22:31

Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 22:31
Marketing purposes.
In some states and some countries it was not permitted to call anything butter unless it was made from milk products
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Friday, Sep 01, 2017 at 18:15

Friday, Sep 01, 2017 at 18:15


I'm glad I ain't too scared to be lazy
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Sep 01, 2017 at 19:57

Friday, Sep 01, 2017 at 19:57
Hey GB i'll just bet that when your trusty Cruiser gets a bit short of the gnarly stuff on the outside of it's boots you treat it to a new set of tires.

LOL

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Gone Bush (WA) - Friday, Sep 01, 2017 at 20:13

Friday, Sep 01, 2017 at 20:13
All those photos were taken in Coles today.

An Australian supermarket and Australian products.

I endured a lot of strange looks to take those photos.....

I'm glad I ain't too scared to be lazy
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Sep 01, 2017 at 21:10

Friday, Sep 01, 2017 at 21:10
enjoy your sugar, hydrogenated oils, dextrose, salt, and "other" ingredients with your peanut paste lol
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Saturday, Sep 02, 2017 at 16:08

Saturday, Sep 02, 2017 at 16:08
Note that most of the manufacturers of peanut paste are american owned and thus will Naturally use the American term ..Peanut Butter.

It's not butter because there is no milk or churning involved. ... no curds no way.

The butter and milk substiute laws have all pretty much gone. .... pitty.

BTW the only real way you can make milk out of soy beans is to feed em to a cow.

YEH even so .... most of the rubbish sold as peanut butter should be banned from being called peanut paste, because it is a blend of all sorts of crap apart from peanuts.

The Peanut Van on the other hand still makes "peanut paste" and that is exactly what it is ..... dry roasted peanuts ground to a paste .... nothing in the tub but ground peanuts .... and that is what it says on the tub ... "PEANUT PASTE"

And it tastes like it ........ I'm not a great lover of peanut paste ...... but shmbo will eat nothing else and complains bitterly when she must consume an inferiour adulterated product to get her peanut fix.

cheers
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Reply By: 9900Eagle - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 18:44

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 18:44
Pop, back to the good old days of pilot engines and stuffed exhaust valves.

Take a beep breath and breath in all that healthy air from the sooter.

Hell I remember this
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 19:22

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 19:22
HAHAHA yeah, nowadays the main diesel wouldn't be allowed to emit as much as the donkey engine did.
I remember back in the '70s starting a D9 in the workshop that had just come from a mine for a complete rebuild. The engine had been dusted so was pretty stuffed. Took a while to get it going and took even longer to clear the smoke haze from the shop.

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 19:54

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 19:54
I've worked in a few coal mines and some used a scrubber system ( exhaust thru water ) and some used a scrubber as well as a big paper filter because they were more concerned about the OH&S issues with exhausts and cancer risks because diesel exhausts emit carcinogenic particles.
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Reply By: Ron N - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 19:42

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 19:42
I cannot bring myself to purchase any diesel with a DPF. They are motor vehicle manufacturers most expensive and highest-maintenance anti-pollution item that they have produced in 40 years of cluttering engines with costly anti-pollution add-ons.

Who remembers those bloody useless air pumps, designed to reduce pollution?
Most fell apart and were disconnected before 100-120,000kms were travelled.

But a DPF is of such utter complexity, and a device adding increased fuel costs and higher maintenance costs, to owning a diesel, that I can see any used diesel vehicle fitted with a DPF, bringing substantially lower resale values in the future, when sold.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 20:19

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 20:19
Yeah, I can see some lucrative business opportunities for those that can establish a reliable cleaning/refurbishing method to give owners an alternative to laying out literally 4 figure sums to replace these units.
Actually I suspect there are probably some going in areas where DPF requirement has been around for some time.
I remember working with a guy many year ago that was looking into building some sort of vibrating table machine to shake the dust out of expensive dump truck and other earth moving equipment air cleaner elements. No idea whether he ever brought the idea to fruition.
Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 20:42

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 20:42
The brother had an iron-ore shiploading contract in Esperance, in the early 2000's, using several very large Komatsu front-end loaders.

All the iron ore shipped through Esperance (it comes from Koolyanobbing) is obliged to be stored in dust-controlled sheds to prevent the iron ore dust from polluting the pristine white sands of Esperance (which is fair enough).

The ore is unloaded from the trains, stockpiled in the sheds, and when an ore carrier arrives, the ore is then dug out of the stockpile and loaded into the shiploader.

His problems started when the Port started demanding intensive exhaust scrubbers be fitted to the loaders, for OH&S reasons.
The Port management claimed the air pollution levels in the sheds were too high.

These scrubbers cost over $20,000 each - and each machine had to be fitted with one, or it wasn't allowed to work in the sheds.
Then, there came a requirement that an additive had to be added to the diesel to improve the pollution levels even further.
This additive cost $600 a 200L drum.

Then came another directive. The additive being used was no longer good enough - another additive had to be used.
This additive cost $3500 per 200L drum!

Finally, came a third directive. The second additive wasn't up to the job either - another additive had to be procured.
This newest additive cost - wait for it - $20,000 per 200L drum!!!

Needless to say, the brother no longer has the Esperance Port, iron-ore shiploading contract.

This anti-pollution drive is a madness that shows no end to the cost burden imposed on owners of diesel-powered equipment and vehicles - and I'm sure there's a method in the madness.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 05:18

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 05:18
Ron, this is what ant -pollution drive brings about. A complete new way of thinking and solution to a growing problem. These will be running about in 2020.

Link. Nikola 2
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 11:02

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 11:02
Tony - Ye gods, I thought DPF's and the massive amounts of electronics on current vehicles were complex and high maintenance!

That Nikola 2 truck looks like something that will make auto-sparkies do Toyota leaps in joy, in anticipation of its arrival!

2020? I won't be holding my breath. Not only a whole massive new concept - but it also requires a monstrous investment in hydrogen refuelling stations.
We often have to plan diesel fuel stops now, or carry additional fuel.

I'm wincing at the cost of setting up hydrogen refuelling stations across the long paddock - let alone the cost of trying to get an auto-sparky out to a point halfway between Nullarbor roadhouse and Border Village.

These "revolutionary" design concepts often come with fabulous image renderings, projected close production dates, and promises of massive cost savings.

The reality is, virtually all of these fantastic new designs come with huge delays with getting into production (sometimes a decade or more behind schedule), and cost savings that are minimal, unless you're talking about small savings over 20 years.

Then there's the not-insubstantial parts and service backup bogey. I can imagine the scenario now.
You're stuck with your broken-down Nikola 2 between Nullarbor and Border Village - and the Nikola-specialist sparky has just arrived after his 15-hour drive from Perth - and you're saying to him, "You mean to tell me, you aren't carrying the part number 111465, series 6 thyristor, for the rear left main drive motor controller??" ...

TransPerth tried out three hydrogen-fuelled Ballard fuel cell buses on a three-year trial between 2004 and 2007.

Despite major promises as regards low cost, efficiency, and low-levels of pollution, the test concluded at the end of the three years (after highly-intensive world-wide studies by multiple groups), that the hydrogen-cell buses only delivered in one area - low pollution levels.

The buses were hideously expensive to purchase, the maintenance levels were high, the hydrogen-fuelling infrastructure was costly, and the cost of the hydrogen was steep.

TransPerth (now called PTA, after the Govt rolled trains, buses and ferries into one organisation) decided, after the hydrogen fuel-cell experiment, that the immediately economic option was simple conversion of a portion of the PTA diesel bus fleet to CNG fuelling.

They aren't putting all their eggs in one basket.

CNG buses currently comprise 40% of the 1354-strong bus fleet, with 809 diesel buses and 545 CNG buses.
The diesel bus makers are constantly fighting back, and the PTA still buys more diesel buses than CNG buses.

The CNG does burn with little pollution, we have the world's second-biggest reserves of natural gas on the NW Shelf of W.A., and we have a major pipeline delivering that gas to Perth and the South West of W.A. - not to mention the number of gas pipelines delivering gas all around the W.A. Goldfields and Pilbara to major minesites.

It makes sense that utilising clean CNG in diesels is one of the immediate economic options, as regards reducing diesel pollution - as well as reducing our oil import bill.

Hydrogen fuel cell buses

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 15:12

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 15:12
They are putting in refuelling stations from Mexico to Canada and refuel time is 15 mins. I remember very well when you couldn't buy diesel and had to cart 44's with you.

Don't know about all that gas, it is there both in WA and Qld. Here they have managed to cause destruction to ground water and rivers and ruined grazing and farming land.

We used to have gas taxi's but they stopped running in our town 10 years ago because they couldn't afford the gas. Same has happened down south and it is no use saying they put excise on it as all that did was bring it into line with the other fuels. Running a pure gas engine brings your efficiency down drastically when compares with diesel. Cat 35/16 diesel is around 1500kw and the same gas engine around 900kw.

They have been running diesel electric trucks in mines for years, that are very, very reliable. So instead of a diesel they will use hydrogen to produce electricity.


Times have to change as the world is becoming a very small place with a lot of people that, so something has to change and it is. We either move on or just keep what we have until it dies or they remove it from the roads.

Guess it is just forced progress.
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Reply By: Member - Wildmax - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 22:36

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 22:36
All a conspiracy between loopy greenies and the manufacturers of electric vehicles......and try recharging one of them half way across the Simpson !!
Wildmax
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Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 23:22

Wednesday, Aug 23, 2017 at 23:22
They have sun in the Simpson, good to charge the batteries from the solar panels on the roof. After a couple of weeks you should be able to attempt the next sand dune.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 12:05

Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 12:05
The unavoidable fact is that for heating or propulsion, nothing competes with burning something. ....... hell for getting energy period, it is hard to compete with burning something.

Problem is ...... there is so much vested interest in what we burn.

The greenies will not let us burn rubbish ..... though, clean high temperature combustion and waste gasification are well developed and well understood ... so we continue to bury in huge cubic volume ....... one digging, one filling in and one looking for new places.

Biogas from rotting sewage and waste does not seem to be getting the support it deserves, though it is very simple and there are large projects running now ...... very large commercial poultry and piggery operations in the US that generate more electricity on site than they can use, a couple of small cities in Europe running their entire buss fleets from the city sewage output, and small scale gas digesters all over rural china providing heat and light for houses and villages.
AND the stuff is going to rot and generate the gas anyway, but burning it reduces it's greenhouse impact by about 75%.

Alcohol, a great fuel that will run in a variety of existing technologies ...... but the governments and vested interests don't want to make it out of the obvious products.
So instead of making it out of sugar, farm waste and wood waste, we are seeing it made from grain that is better fed to livestock to grow food.
Thus the ethanol in our fuel actually cost more in diesel to make than the fuel value it replaces.

That brings us back to the diesel engine ...... the diesel engine is not the problem ..... it is the industrial byproduct we burn in them. ... they run much cleaner on biodiesel, vegy oil or coconut oil.

cheers

cheers
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Reply By: gbc - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 08:21

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 08:21
Diesel manufacturer's last 'gasp' at complying with emissions standards. It's adblue or DPF. Our Isuzu 800 has the DPF and has done for 6 years. No big deal, and certainly not news. They auto regen on the highway and there's a button to push if you need to. I see the next prado will finally get a button too. Good on Toyota for picking up the ball after the game is over - typical. Mercedes announced 12 years ago they were done with diesel technology - there is nowhere else to go with it.
A tank of adblue lasts up to 10 000 km and is available everywhere so that is hardly a game stopper.
I got the egr/dpf quip and yes, it is almost the very definition of an oxymoron, but that is the very short future of diesel unfortunately.
I like them, I drive one, but I can also see the writing on the wall.



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Follow Up By: William P - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 11:02

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 11:02
I tend to agree - not sure what the issue is with a DPF other than cost of replacement but that is only likely because somebody has ignored the regeneration protocol and wrecked the DPF.

Most people who do mixed driving will never know they have a DPF as it will regenerate when the driving conditions are right all by itself and if not, a light or message comes up and you either drive as needed or push a button. A lot about nuffin.

William
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 16:32

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 16:32
If you do some 'net searching and asking others who own vehicles fitted with a DPF, you will find these recurring and nagging issues ....

1. DPF's increase fuel consumption - by at least 3%. This is not denied, even by the manufacturers.
DPF's are a restriction to exhaust flow, and they regularly need additional diesel injected into the engine, or into the DPF, to burn off the collected soot.
This burnoff is required to be carried out every 300-800kms, depending on the make and model.

2. Because the DPF restricts exhaust gas flow, they reduce HP/KW output.

3. The DPF burnoff/regeneration cycle requires speed and heat input into the DPF. Ford state a minimum burnoff/regeneration speed of 30-40kmh, Mitsubishi say 40kmh, for Holdens, it's 50kmh.
Toyota are the only ones who have a burnoff/regeneration process that can be done at idle.
For those carrying out constant slow-speed driving - such as on bush tracks, on stop-start heavy traffic conditions, and paddock driving, such as rounding up stock - this requirement for regular speed for burnoff/regeneration is a right PIA.

4. The DPF is not designed to last the life of the engine. In general, the lifespan of a DPF appears to range between 120,000 and 200,000kms.
Most diesel engines will easily reach 350,000-400,000 kms before overhaul is needed.
So you will need to replace the DPF at least once before engine overhaul is needed.
The DPF is a very costly item, with quoted replacement prices ranging from $2500-$5000.

5. There are companies who specialise in DPF removal. This can be carried out so neatly, you don't know it's been done.
If you buy a late model used diesel vehicle, and you don't know it has had its DPF removed - and you get checked out for emission/exhaust smoke levels - and then get a yellow sticker because the DPF is found to be missing, you're up for the substantial additional cost of a new DPF installation, on top of your used vehicle purchase cost.

6. It's not uncommon for a requirement for a workshop DPF regeneration to be carried out, because of a lack of owner knowledge and procedures.
Fully three-quarters of the car owners in this world never check under the bonnet, let alone read up on, and learn about "proper", or involved, DPF burnoff/regeneration requirements and processes.

DPF's also need regular workshop regeneration, because they become clogged with crankcase oil residues, that come from oil being burnt as it passes the rings.

You can guarantee that workshop regeneration of DPF's is a money-spinner for workshops and dealers, they are pretty good at ripping off owners at the best of times, so you can imagine how they will make money out of unnecessary DPF replacements or unnecessary regeneration jobs.

7. DPF's are a major fire risk in dry grass, stubble or spinifex. They need to reach 600 degs C for burnoff/regeneration to occur - this is nearly double most regular exhaust system component temperatures, and there are many warnings by authorities about the need to watch for fires caused by DPF's.
You could possibly initiate a fire with a DPF on a hot Summers day, simply by pulling off the highway into some long grass, to allow a wide load to pass.

How DPF's work

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: William P - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 17:06

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 17:06
Thanks Ron but I didn't read your post as they are always too long - would give war a peace and run for its money - an executive summary would help :-)
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 18:12

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 18:12
Ron, as they have refined the engine management of dpf fitted vehicles, with Euro 6 truck engines, they are getting better fuel consumption than any previous diesel engines.

The European manufacturers especially Benz/Volvo and MAN have been over it for a long time and now both paccar, detroit and cummins are getting there and now get better fuel consumption than ever before, this also includes adblue in the equation. Some of the oil changes have gone out to 60000K depending on the fuel burn of the engine, as more weights added the oil change will come back to say 50000, 40000k and so on depending on how many trailers are pulled.

These new engines run cooler, cleaner and with way better fuel consumption figures including much longer service periods and service life of the engines.

One of the problems with 4wd diesels and dpf's is round town shopping trolleys and kid mobiles, short runs where the engine doesn't get to operating temp and doesn't get worked. This causes all sorts of problems for a dpf. Toyota on their 200 and 70 series have had big problems with theirs, but I think they have fixed it now.

I have to agree about the spinifex fire problem, but it seems to be only common to a limited number of dpf fitted vehicles, maybe other manufacturers fit theirs higher or with better shielding. I am totally with you on the owner ignorance of dpf and the consequence of that, I also believe some dealers don't familiarise new owners with the proper way to look after their def engines or the owners just don't listen.
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Follow Up By: gbc - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 19:23

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 19:23
Alternatives? None. Say what you like about them they are one of the few things keeping diesels on the market at all. Our experience is that they are a bit of a non event. Do they work? Have a look at the rust on the inside of the exhaust pipe of a dpf equipped truck.
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Follow Up By: Rangiephil - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 21:04

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 21:04
Mercedes gave up diesels a while ago .ER NO.
Mercedes-Benz has dipped into the past to protect the future with a new family of fuel-efficient engines.
The German car maker has revealed details of its new modular engine family, which includes the return of a straight six cylinder configuration.
It will be joined by new four cylinder variants, a diesel six cylinder and petrol V8 that share a common architecture including 90mm bore spacing and can be paired with electrification systems ranging from 12 volt to 48 volt, opening the door to 'mild' hybrid options across the range.
A planned 2017 update to the S-Class range will see the new powertrain systems rolled out before spreading across the Mercedes-Benz vehicle line-up.

I suggest that you Google Mercedes Engine technology.
Regards Philip A
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Follow Up By: gbc - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 09:30

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 09:30
Yes, they have, it also references being a forced stop gap due to the delayed takeup of 100% electrical powerplants. There is zero new technology being introduced here, just allowing hybrid motors to be bolted to the diesel powerplant, and reinstating the old straight 6 - great move.
It also references that they will be installing DPF's on their petrol engines as well! But overall just a very small blip on the sliding slope towards oblivion in the overall lifespan of diesel tech, and my point stands that since merc introduced bluetech 10+ years ago, they have stopped trying to further actual diesel technology - it is done - hence motors which chase their tails until they disappear up their own ar$e trying to comply with emissions standards per the OP's original comment.
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 21:35

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 21:35
The dpf on modern diesels may increase fuel consumption and decrease power but they are still more powerful and frugal than the earlier models in spite of carrying that techno anti pollution baggage. Single digit fuel economy should be mandatory. If a v8 Touareg pushing 250kw and 800nm torque can do 9ish l/100 why can't they all?
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Reply By: Rangiephil - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 16:34

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 16:34
I was amused by the comment about Hydrogen buses in Perth, as I know the ex MD of British Oxygen who was in involved in supplying the hydrogen.

He told me in general conversation that the hydrogen trial was the greatest and most expensive disaster that he was involved in during his period as MD.

The problem was and still probably is that the buses needed 99.7% pure liquid Hydrogen to work correctly, while BOC made and distributed commercial grade Hydrogen which was not so pure.

The effort involved in making and keeping the Hydrogen 99+ pure in manufacture and distribution was enormously expensive.

So I don't expect to see a network of Hydrogen fuelling stations in the near future if ever.

Regards Philip A
AnswerID: 613290

Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 18:17

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 18:17
Phil, the new hydrogen power doesn't power an engine it produces electricity and turns an electrical motor. The hydrogen is also very cheap to produce, way, way cheaper than fossil fuel.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 19:54

Thursday, Aug 24, 2017 at 19:54
The "hydrogen economy" has been a major cycle of breathless hype, followed by disillusionment - for as long as I can remember. And I can remember back to the early 1950's.

Every "major" hydrogen "discovery", or "advancement", news article, is always tempered by the words, "could", or "may".

Allis-Chalmers produced their hydrogen fuel-cell tractor in 1959, and touted it as the be-all and end-all of modern farming.

We know where the A-C hydrogen fuel-cell tractor went, it's in the Smithsonian - and the idea of a hydrogen economy is still a pipe dream.

The Smithsonian - the A-C hydrogen fuel-cell tractor

It will take a long time before we have economic production of hydrogen, and a substantial network of supply points - as the oil companies have set up over the last 100 years.

The latest CSIRO invention - their new membrane, for simpler hydrogen extraction, is a small step forward, towards the hydrogen economy - but it's a long journey yet to come, on a rough and rocky road, before the hydrogen economy can state it is viable, and an economic success.

New CSIRO membrane discovery could lead to "renewable" hydrogen

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 05:55

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 05:55
Ron, we will see won't we. times have changed and going back to the last century or other attempts doesn't mean a thing.

If we all thought on the negative side, we would still be using sailing ships, buggies and watching birds fly. Finally the internal combustion engine has nearly had it's day and the fuel cartels have lost control.

Europe has already signalled they will be either banned or taxed out of existence.

Already China is the biggest user of electric vehicles in the world and they are also investing heavily in that development area.

Nuff said this is getting way of track
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Reply By: Member - Scott & Sally - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 00:59

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 00:59
Life's getting too complicated. I'll just stick to my 2012 VDJ76 I think. At least I won't be starting any bushfires when I'm out and about.
AnswerID: 613295

Reply By: The Bantam - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 12:53

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 12:53
So many of these green earth saving ideas simply fail in the long term view.

If all factors are considered many of them have far worse environmental consequences than the older technology.

Of course the big end of town looks at everything as a money maker and the end user as a profit centre.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever, that the Diesel particulate filter could be engineered and manufactured in such a way that none of these problems would occur ...... BUT, OH NO ...... the component and car manufacturers see the DPF as a profit centre ....... they are manufacturered and implimented with the specific intent that they will fail and require replacement.

And this is very much true of many things in modern cars ...... nothing about the modern car is about it being long term durable and minimizing the long term running costs.

SO much of the way new cars are manufactured and managed is about producing a specific set of statistics that are only viable in the short term.

The oils are not specified to achieve the longest life from the engine but to produce short term environmental statistics.
The long drain intervals, particularly in petrol vehicles is to produce low short term cost of ownership figures and reduce the oil used to help the environmental stats ...... not to produce longest engine life.

Then we get to this common rail diesel thing ...... ALL the manufacturers know that common rail diesel is vunerable AND they know that the avaiable fuel is not sufficiently consistent, yet they doo bugger all to help the situation.

One of the guys on another fourm posted because he was very unhappy.

He'd just baught a new ute and a new excavator ....... they both had a nearly identical engine ...... the ute had a piss poor token effort fuel filter, unlikley to protect the engine from very much at all ...... where the excavator had a very solid 3 stage fuel filter system ........ yeh the car manufacturers won't cop any responsibility whatsoever for fuel contamination ...... but they also won't fit adequate fuel filtration.

Yeh and on the matter of combined nightmare EGR and positive crank case ventilation.

The car manufacturers will know damn well that contaminating the intake system with oil is not a good thing .... particularly in diesels ....... but will they fit catch cans or some other sort of oil diverter in the PCV system ...... OH NO

They see an out of warranty profit centre.

Yeh call me bitter, twisted and synical. I'm happy with that.

cheers
AnswerID: 613305

Follow Up By: pop2jocem - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 13:31

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 13:31
I wonder how a sort of catch-can-DPF-regeneration-burn-off device would work.

Apparently when a DPF is starting to get a bit blocked extra diesel is injected into the exhaust to raise the temperature in the DPF to something like 700 C which burns off all the gunk. That's tech speak for the nasties clogging the filter.

So instead of the crankcase fumes getting sucked into the air intake and combining with the exhaust gas, EGR, which clogs the intake tract, feed them into the exhaust just upstream from the DPF. As they burn they could give you a sort of continuous cleaning effect. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
Yeah I know maybe a bit smoky but I wouldn't think burning raw diesel in a low oxygen environment such as an exhaust pipe would be much better.

Whadaya reckon?? Worth patenting the idea, huh?

Cheers
Pop
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 14:43

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 14:43
The problem is .. I think oil, particularly dirty oil would contaminate the DPF.

Mostly all that is needed to clean the DPF is a good flogging ...something that all diesels need from time to time, for a variety of reasons.

As far as the catch can is concerned, I cant see why it cant be contrived to do it's job and then drain back into the sump periodicaly.

I have not looked around, but I am sure it would be possible to buy high performance DPFs.

I Know for certain there are high performance, high flow, long life Cat converters for petrol vehicles ....... and like many aftermarket spare parts, they are often way cheaper than the OEM part purchased thru the dealer system.

But the problem remains ..... the diesel engines we see in light vehicles are lumps of puss in comparison to what is found in the commercial and heavy vehicle market.

Some of the big commercial diesels would go further in 3 oil changes than the crap in the passenger cars will go between rebuilds.

The big modern diesels, the build quality is better, the filtration of oil and fuel is way better, I know of no passenger car that filters it's coolant, but many big diesels do.
Even the Factory supplied consumables are better quality than the passenger cars.

Yeh the proper commercial diesels have design lifespans in the millions of Km, where the passenger cars are the same numbers in the hunderds of thousands.

The green credentials of the car industry are definitly questionable.

OH then there is the cost of parts ....... it would cost me less to buy a set of brake shoes for one axle on most trucks than most cars and light commercials .... and the truck brake shoes are like 4 times the size and contain about 10 times the materials.

That is before the car makers change parts for no good reason ...... there is no functional difference, they are just intentionally different so parts of one model won't fit another.

Even the Japs are doing it now ...... back in the 80's when I was in Mazdas, there was pretty much 2 rear wheel cylinders that fitted nearly all Mazda passenger and light commercial vehicles ...... now all that has changed.

YEH and headlights ..... OH don't start me with headlights ....... most headlights could be built to take a range of standard inserts, with a moulded component for individual vehicles ...... But OH NO ...... every model has a different headlight and some can be $400 - 600 .... For one ordinary F$#!@&N headlight. .... some of them very %$#!@& ordinary.

meanwhile most trucks and light commercials have standard form factor headlight inserts.

ARRRRGGGGHHH $#@!^&$#!@!&.

cheers
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FollowupID: 883712

Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:51

Monday, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:51
Bantam, I've got to agree 100% with your complaints - and the headlights stunt is definitely a total ripoff, and a sales scam unparalleled in history.

The other factor as regards headlights is the use of cheap acrylics in their construction - and those acrylics suffering from dreadful yellowing, within a few short years from new.

And it's just not the "cheap" makes suffering from the problem - I've seen hundreds of Toyotas suffering from the problem, too.

I don't understand why this acrylic yellowing of headlight lenses hasn't been a source of public anger and recalls, and demands for the use of better material in their construction.

After all, yellowed acrylic headlight lenses are a safety issue - and usually, the instant "safety issue" is raised, there's generally a rush by manufacturers to fix the problem.

AFAIC, the acrylics used in headlight construction are "not fit for purpose", as defined in Australian Consumer Law - and they should all be withdrawn and replaced with headlights made from materials that continue to stay transparent for the life of the vehicle.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Member - Scott & Sally - Monday, Aug 28, 2017 at 23:33

Monday, Aug 28, 2017 at 23:33
You don't really want the catch can contents going back into the sump. When I drain mine there is always a bit of water (condensation) with the oil.
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Reply By: Member - Roachie - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 17:52

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 17:52
My DPF is sitting around behind my shed.....very much an unloved item!!!

Same goes for the Adblue tank!!!! hahaha

Truck runs soooooooooo much better now!!!

AnswerID: 613307

Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 23:01

Friday, Aug 25, 2017 at 23:01
Question from a techical dummie Roachie, but how did you go about that - can Beaudesert or other exhaust suppliers do the job?
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie - Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 08:10

Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 08:10
You need to speak to somebody who is able to tweak the vehicle's computer. It's not strictly legal.

Then there's the exhaust alterations....that part is relatively simple....just rip-out the DPF and insert a length of plain pipe or an ordinary muffler.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 11:19

Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 11:19
Chip Tuning have a very comprehensive webpage of information on DPF's - and their removal.
Naturally, they are in favour of, and make money out of, DPF removal.

They do the important additional work of going through the ECU and removing any DPF programming strings, that could adversely impact engine and vehicle operation.

DPF information - Chip Tuning

Bottom line is - removing any emission control device is illegal in every state of Australia, and if caught, the fines are hefty - something like $10,000 for an individual and $15,000 for a corporate entity.

However, there is a loophole - and Chip Tuning have picked up on it.
See the last few paragraphs of their website above.

The loophole is "removal without just cause".
"Just cause" is what lawyers would reckon is a doorway big enough to drive a Mack truck through.

If a regularly-problematic DPF is affecting the safe operation of your vehicle, you have "just cause" for removal, no?

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 14:40

Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 14:40
Thanks for that.......I reckon "just cause" for off-road travellers would certainly cover making sure that your vehicle didn't go up in a puff of smoke in long grass or spinifex!!
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Follow Up By: William P - Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 16:42

Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 16:42
I dont think a DPF in its normal running period would have any more chance of causing such as fires as normal catalytic converters or even plain hot exhausts.

William
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 19:14

Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 19:14
Yep William, it is the positioning of the dpf that causes problems with fires and people not making sure the underside is cleaned and as you said, any vehicle will start a spinifex or grass fire if they let it build up. Before df's it was turbos and before that it was people not getting out and having a look.

Now, how many people here actually drive over spinifex to want worrying about the problem at all.

Have done a lot of hard country driving and operating. I have either avoided long grass/spinifex or cleaned regularly. Result, never had a belly fire and if I did it would have been a huge insurance claim. Big things don't come cheap and owners get pretty pissed of when their gear is toasted.

Last big thing I pushed around for a mate, I never even had a clue the dpf was doing a regen except for the dash light.



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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 19:22

Saturday, Aug 26, 2017 at 19:22
There are plenty of warnings about the increased risk of fire danger caused by DPF's, in American literature - and the Americans have had DPF's as compulsory fitment to their diesels since 2007.

That's 10 yrs experience with them, as compared to Australia only just getting them on all diesels now.

The diesels fitted with DPF's in Australia, for the last 6 or 7 years, have been a handful of European and British models - and very few of those models ever see anything but sealed roads.

DPF fires

There have been multiple lawsuits in the U.S., claiming brush fires, or wildfires as they are often referred to in the U.S., have been started by DPF's.

A California fire chief has given a deposition that he found at least 4 wildfires had almost certainly been started by DPF's.

There have been multiple lawsuits in the U.S., whereby truckies are claiming the DPF system is flawed, and has led to trucks themselves catching fire, and burning to a total loss.

If a turbocharger fails catastrophically (as they often do), it can spew hot oil into the exhaust, and thereby, into the DPF.
The result is an oil fire started by the high temperature inside the DPF.

The regeneration process quite often produces visible flames from the exhaust, or exhaust gas temperatures that are easily capable of igniting straw, dry grass or dry leaves.

The U.S. Forest Service has done a 46 page study on the risk involved in forest fires from DPF's and concluded they were highly likely to be a potential forest fire risk.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Sulphur1 - Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 23:25

Sunday, Aug 27, 2017 at 23:25
'Went to the supposed 'greenie' state of Tassie in March this year. Adblue not readily available & unless getting it from a trucking company, it was three times the cost. Travelled through World Heritage area & next door they are burning off large areas of harvested forest left-over so much that it made breathing uncomfortable. When the "Spirit" ferry left it sent up a huge cloud of diesel (particle?) smoke.
In Europe the EU has allowed lignite to continue to be used in new power stations in Greece that 'surprise, surprise' is financed by Germany.
Most of the ships plying Australia are powered by the dirtiest low grade fuel oil creating huge emissions whist in the so called green SA they are installing diesel powered generators and Adelaide still has old dirty diesel trains.
Trucks are Euro 6 whilst Australia's diesel freight trains have some of the oldest diesel fleets in comparison
I bet our diesel powered military don't have DPF's where reliability is a premium such as tanks, etc.
What an expensive hypocritical joke this has become on the auto industry and the public for political grand standing.
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Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Monday, Aug 28, 2017 at 21:44

Monday, Aug 28, 2017 at 21:44
Political grandstanding - spot on Sulphur!
All driven by inner city trendies who've never been off the bitumen or more than 25km from the nearest coffee shop !!
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 01:54

Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 01:54
The Euro and US emission standards have got nothing to do with inner city trendies or hypocritical nonsense. The denser populated parts of the world are choking on exhaust fumes and smog, travel overseas and you can't see into the distance through the haze. You can't buy a lot of the diesel cars in the US because they don't meet the standard so you only get the petrol variants. It's the reason Nissan have dropped most of the diesels in their range because they can't sell them in the US. It's the reason that predominantly diesel Europe is in the process of banning diesel from a lot of the main cities. Japan is anti diesel big time and they force retire their petrol cars by selling them to places like NZ as grey imports because they don't pass emissions standards any more for rego. Because the rest of the world is doing it, then we get caught in the wash because they aren't going to make special cars just for us.
Fair dinkum, what sort of pussies are we if we are blaming latte sipping greenies for forcing unpleasant inconveniences on us. Greenies aren't in government, they get under 10% of the vote. They can't make policy, the people you actually voted into power make policy and they take note of what is happening elsewhere and try not to make the same mistakes, hopefully anyway. I'm completely sick of the stupid myth that inner city greenies are running the world by some sort of mystical voodoo magic that doesn't stand up to any sort of logic what so ever. Money rules the world....the end.
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Follow Up By: William P - Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 09:59

Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 09:59
And yet - European diesel technology is such that diesel imports to the US are rising as they now meet US regs - indeed Landrover is now selling diesels into the US for the first time for many years.

However be aware that there does seem to be differeing standards in the US - home grown diesels seem to be OK but imports have trouble yet elsewhere in the world US diesels seem to have trouble meeting modern requirements but not in the US.
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 10:34

Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 10:34
There are two main factors driving all this. The first is that companies selling product that may be proven carcinogenic need to cover their butts against litigation in the future. Just ask the tobacco or asbestos mining industries. The second factor is that around 40% of a barrel of crude oil is diesel. You can't throw it out and it has to be sold because money rules the world, right? Therefore they have to have scientific processes in place to ensure they are selling cars and fuel that meets a standard that is scientifically proven to reduce the risk of harmful side effects in the event of a class action. Being green is just a side effect, not the main driving force. Well that's my opinion anyway.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 11:10

Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 11:10
There's 3 simple reasons why diesels don't have the popularity in the U.S., that they have here.

1. The Americans have always had dirt cheap petrol - and oodles of it. They have no need, nor any desire to be economical in their fuel use. They pay nearly the same price per gallon as we pay per litre (well, almost). And it's American oil, and Americans love their oil industry and support it 100%.

2. They love their V8's - particularly petrol ones, and particularly, huge capacity V8's. They first produced V8's for everyday cars, and popularised them amongst Americans, and the rest of the world as well. A gutless, slow-revving diesel just ain't the same - even when the diesel is a V8.

3. The North American Winter climate is bitter and harsh. Far harsher than anything we experience in Australia. They need block heaters just to be able to start their vehicles in Winter.

Try starting a diesel at 20 below, you can immediately see why Americans love petrol engines.
Caterpillar put separate (petrol) starting engines on their tractor engines, because it was the only way you could start an old Cat tractor in a U.S. Winter.

Chrysler Corporation introduced their excellent 6 cylinder Dodge diesel, in their new Dodge 3-ton truck line, in 1939.
It was a really good truck, with a really good diesel engine, economical and torquey. It sold like lead balloons at the Royal Easter Show.

Dodge sold just 143 of these diesel-engined trucks in 3 years. Americans wouldn't buy them, because they were too hard to start when it got bitterly cold.
In addition, economy in fuel use made little impression on American truck buyers. There was more petrol than one could poke a stick at, who cared about fuel economy?

Dodge stopped making this fine little diesel truck engine in early 1942, when WW2 demanded unnecessary production lines be turned over to manufacturing War equipment.
Dodge didn't produce another diesel light truck for 47 years - and when they did, they went to Cummins for the engine.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 13:12

Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 13:12
Michael H9, the European cities are populated by latte sipping greenies too, and governments here as well as there are so freaked out by losing their preference votes that the 10% have disproportionate influence on election and policy outcomes.
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 15:19

Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 15:19
We'll have to call them meany greenies then. They only get a look in if we can't make up our mind on the other two bunch's of dropkicks.
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Follow Up By: Member - Wildmax - Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 15:26

Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 15:26
How true !!
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 16:10

Tuesday, Aug 29, 2017 at 16:10
Michael H, I guess one of those two groups would be the Mississippi Whiskey sipping rednecks and the other be development at any cost mob.

There are a hell of a lot of people out there that can actually see what part of the solution is, they are just the silent people that haven't got their blinkers on and see what we a doing has got to stop. They are not greenies just thinking people.

To those who wish to label people. This is from someone who has probably put more soot in the air than 99.9% of people on here. Me Greenie nope, just someone who listens and makes up my own mind, I also don't drink latte's only black coffee and tea, plus some beer and rum.





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