Follow up from Common Rail Diesel problem

Submitted: Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 18:18
ThreadID: 135880 Views:2763 Replies:8 FollowUps:14
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Three months ago I reported on a problem with my Prado when it blew a piston on the way back to Melbourne from Qld and now a site I was beginning to think I would never see. After 3 months to the day I have a fully functioning Prado back at home. Blew a piston on our return from Queensland and Vehicle and Caravan were trucked back to Melbourne. Took me three weeks to source a new motor and Patterson /Cheney in Dandenong fitted the motor and two weeks later. picked the car up and drove it home but next morning auto tranny would not go into reverse. Eventually disconnected battery terminal and finally it went into reverse but after a short time went into limp home mode so back to Toyota. Threee weeks later Toyota gave up and said it was inside the auto. Took it to Wholesale Automatics in Bayswater and after a week they gave the auto a clean bill of health and said it was in the ECU so back to Toyota. After another 2 weeks they finally rang me after three days of testing and I picked it up yesterday. The ECU fault that kept throwing fault codes apparently was a fault in a 30 amp fuse connection to the Alternator that was giving false readings to the ECU. Bloody electronics in these new cars is a nightmare and I don't know how you would ever find it the bush. Took it for a short drive today 150Kms and over bumpy dirt roads etc and it performed as it should.
Very happy Chappie today
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 20:56

Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 20:56
Hi old 55

That's agreat end to the story.


All the best.




Cheers



Stephen
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AnswerID: 615071

Reply By: RMD - Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 21:03

Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 21:03
Just goes to show that many of the professionals don’t know what to do and can not fault find or diagnose either.
Good you have it all sorted.
AnswerID: 615072

Reply By: splits - Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 22:25

Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 22:25
" The ECU fault that kept throwing fault codes apparently was a fault in a 30 amp fuse connection to the Alternator that was giving false readings to the ECU. Bloody electronics in these new cars is a nightmare and I don't know how you would ever find it the bush. "


They must have had the tea lady working on the car. I have a 2wd car with more electronics than it knows what to do with. The genuine workshop manual from the car manufacturer says a code fault will be either in the ECU, the sensor or whatever or the wiring circuit. .The tests listed for each one are very easy to do and I could do it at home if necessary. A first year apprentice should have been able to find a faulty fuse connection. Cars used to get faults with those as far back as the 1930s.or maybe even earlier.
AnswerID: 615073

Follow Up By: Old 55 - Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 23:03

Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 23:03
Kept throwing a different fault each time you started it and some said Solenoids in the transmission (which is why it went to Wholesale Automatics but luckily they didn't believe what they were seeing and did pressure tests and eventually said electrical not Transmission) and others made no sense at all. The fuse in question was in the main under bonnet circuit panel and the fuse was still alright but not connecting. At least that's what Mr Toyota said.
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FollowupID: 885849

Follow Up By: RMD - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 10:16

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 10:16
I agree with splits.
Any vehicle which has roaming faults and mutiple sensor failures or solenoids not working is NEARLY ALWAYS a supply of electron problem OR an inability of those supplied electrons to get to/return to the battery negative.
Therefore, it has to be a fuse/connection or an neg/earthing connection. Reasonably basic stuff.

Obviously the auto people recognized that and sent it back to the diagnostic nuff nuffs hoping they would learn.
Unfortunately people blame Toyota but it isn't Mr. Toyota, it is Sammy Stupid who works in dealerships.

I mentioned a while ago of a Nissan D40 Navara with more faults than codes, almost. The Authorized selling dealer in my town worked on it and found multiple faults by their electronic brain. They had not much brain. Purely by accident they must have unbolted the earth and replaced it without knowing they had done anything. Then the totally dead vehicle started and registered NO faults.
Owner wanted to then trade it, lost confidence in it, the dealer then would NOT trade the vehicle claiming it had electronic faults, despite 5 minutes before saying it had none. Owner bought a Toyota Hilux.
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FollowupID: 885854

Follow Up By: Gary T7 - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 14:06

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 14:06
RMD
posted
"electrons to get to/return to the battery negative." (Conventionally taught)

Just a small point,for those that don't know. Electrons actually travel from negative to positive of the battery, yes neg to pos.

So it is very important to have a good earth negative circuit.
Poor negative circuits cause all sorts of problems.

Not the conventional way every one gets taught in Australia .
America gets taught the correct way I believe.
English cars use to have positive as the ground and negative as the active circuit.

Gary
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FollowupID: 885868

Follow Up By: RMD - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 14:54

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 14:54
Yes Gary, they do leave the neg but since the fault was not "supplying" to the circuit, the idea of continuing the 12v flow was stated as such.

If ANY owner (ith a little instruction) has a multi meter and can hold the probes across fuses they would find the fault. It has to be causing a resistance to flow or no flow seeing the fuse itself was reported as being intact.

Dealers can't use multimeters or identify fuses apparently.
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FollowupID: 885872

Reply By: Theo D - Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 23:17

Saturday, Nov 18, 2017 at 23:17
..... and this is the reason I went from a common rail diesel back to a fully mech operated diesel (well... just about).

I can feel your pain and frustration. When these things occur they are nothing but a nightmare. Those that havnt encountered serious common rail issues like this have no idea how much of a headache they really are, and they can all stem from something so small (in your case a bloody fuse connection). I had a failed injector pump in my 3L Navara earlier this year and it came because of a $45 neutral switch that was playing up and throwing out injection timing attached to the ECU. Talk about nightmare....
AnswerID: 615076

Follow Up By: Old 55 - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 06:03

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 06:03
Yep your spot on Theo, In order to get economy and meet the emission controls they have made the new diesels to my mind uneconomical. Not in fuel mileage but in long term maintenance and over complicated. For nearly two years I had the ABS, Stability control and downhill assist light would come on for no reason and next time you started it it would go out. Had it back to dealer many times and they could not find the fault. By coincidence a friend installed trailer brakes on his 200 series Toyota and had the same fault appear straight after. By adjusting the sensitivity of the stop light switch to the point where it would come on with a light touch on the brakes the fault cleared. Tried it on mine and have never seen the lights again. Go figure.
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FollowupID: 885851

Follow Up By: RMD - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 10:23

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 10:23
Theo.
I would like to know how a neutral light switch can ruin an injector pump. Even if it altered the timing, which is injection based, the pump would work the same
because it isn't the item which controls timing at all. The injector pump just makes pressure, the injectors via the ECU do the timing. I think someone was telling you porkies there.
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FollowupID: 885855

Follow Up By: Member - mechpete - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 11:46

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 11:46
I,m with you RMD
can,t see how it could be related
mechpete
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FollowupID: 885865

Follow Up By: Member - RobnJane(VIC) - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 13:04

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 13:04
We had a D22 3 litre Navara and suffered a failure of the neutral switch, which certainly impacted the cars performance, however after Dealer diagnoses they found the faulty switch, replaced and all good. I believe it is fitted to prevent driveline 'overload' or 'shockload' so that as the clutch is depressed fuel returns to idle regardless of pedal position.
I am not 100% sure of the above and happy to be corrected.
Rgds,
Rob
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Follow Up By: William P - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 14:11

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 14:11
Again - nothing to do with Common Rail - just issues that could occur in any car.

It seems that most of the comments and issues in this thread and more generally on the forum attribute any problem in a Common Rail engined 4wd to the common rail when in fact that aspect is exceptionally reliable (vulnerable to water) and the issues raised have nothing to do with that aspect of the engine and its management system.

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FollowupID: 885869

Follow Up By: RMD - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 14:46

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 14:46
RobnJane
A neutral switch isn't anything to do with a control pedal in the vehicle.
I agree switches can be faulty but usually the pedal switches, positioned on both Clutch and Brake cuts the cruise off when pedal is pressed.
A neutral switch is fitted to a gearsystem, ie, manual geabox. That mighthave an effect on stopping preformance if malfunctioning but isn't related to overload or shock loads.
I presume that info came from a dealer, most of whom will say anything to placate the customer, "give 'em a reason and they are happy and will go away" is the common style of dealer replies. If the customer is told something they keep asking what is the problem. Dealers have vast experience in telling customers "stuff". Sometimes they may be truthful. Document such events as they are rare indeed.
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FollowupID: 885871

Follow Up By: Theo D - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 15:46

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 15:46
Hey Rmd

I'll have a crack at trying to relay the info given to me by my diesel mechanic in Cairns. I do as much work on vehicles myself, but if it's too much for me... it goes to him LOL

I drove around in my zd30 Navara for around 3 or 4 weeks with 4th gear badly surging or as some people say 'hunting'. It was almost non operational. After 2 weeks I did my research and it pointed to a neutral switch so I purchased and replaced. Easy peesy... problem fixed.

2 weeks after new neutral switch injector pump died (Bosch vp44 pump... google it). The only fault code the thing threw up was 0073 which is 'pump communication line' which is the plug & elec line from ECU to pump. Myself and a mate did everything we could to try and start the vehicle to no result. My mechanic stressed that the vp44 does inherently die for no reason from time to time BUT there is nearly always a trigger for it and his first question was have you had any issues of late, which i responded with the 4th gear hunting & neutral switch. Bingo he said.

His take on it was that Id been driving on it for a matter of weeks it had upset a portion of the ECU thus causing wrong injection... not so much the pump itself but injection in general was not fluent as per normal. Again and as you say the pump just gives pressure, but the injectors were being disrupted by the surging. It all seemed pretty likely to me in his words.

My further research revealed the Vp44 normally throws up a code 0076 'spill valve' when it is dead. In my case the 0073 comm line is extremely common in the 3L Patrol, same but intercooled. It is mostly due to air induction into pump e.g. running out of fuel, air in lines. 0073 is a code that can pop up from time to time in the Navara's being caused by running severly low on fuel e.g. starving injector pump, or problems associated with ECU (as per my case). The ECU from memory can nearly always be reset for minor issues by starting vehicle and letting run for 10mins straight however injector pump can never be reset. It must be replaced.

Id like to think I've not been sold for a dummy. IfI have been it must have been Johnathon Thurston kind of dummy!!!!
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FollowupID: 885873

Follow Up By: splits - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 20:34

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 20:34
" It seems that most of the comments and issues in this thread and more generally on the forum attribute any problem in a Common Rail engined 4wd to the common rail when in fact that aspect is exceptionally reliable (vulnerable to water) and the issues raised have nothing to do with that aspect of the engine and its management system."

================================

I agree. It reminds me of a story I read decades ago at the time Chrysler outboard motors were first fitted with electronic ignition systems. The control unit was a black plastic box. .

A steadily increasing number of these "black boxes" started coming back from dealers who, while trying to diagnose problems with these mysterious new ignition systems, thought they were faulty. It was a case of blame the black box. Chrysler could not find anything wrong with them.

Some bright spark in head office decided to make the control units out of white plastic. That more than halved the number being returned. There was no more black box to blame.
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FollowupID: 885882

Reply By: swampy - Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 00:29

Sunday, Nov 19, 2017 at 00:29
Hi
Most times the symptom u experience is not the cause . This is the same with all fuel injected diesel and petrol .
Most times if the code reader says its faulty that's it . It must be it says so...........................LOL LOL
Even the manufacturers are now only giving limited info and seriously lack information for the tech .
Even better when it comes to checking voltages for diagnosis at the ECU
SERVICE MANAGER QUOTE
"" that would take to long ""
What chance does a customer have when u get managers who DONOT NO HOW TO DIAGNOSE ..........LOL LOL ..........
THe vehicle had issues after they did major repairs that took 3 months
crank but no start 1st attempt start on 2nd try.
2 times it was the battery , LOL
[still occurs occasionally ]
HEY D.ckHead service manager the computer diagnosis does not work till running .
Really
Yes these late model DID do have problems but its mostly the Dealers not letting the tech do his job ...
AnswerID: 615077

Reply By: Sigmund - Monday, Nov 20, 2017 at 09:02

Monday, Nov 20, 2017 at 09:02
There can be some real mysteries outside electronics too. Let's not get too sentimental about the good old days. A slightly loose main jet in my FB Holden carby had two good mechanics defeated.
AnswerID: 615101

Follow Up By: splits - Monday, Nov 20, 2017 at 09:56

Monday, Nov 20, 2017 at 09:56
" A slightly loose main jet in my FB Holden carby had two good mechanics defeated. "

We had a problem many years ago at work with a Renault engine cutting out when the car went around a sharp corner. After much checking and head scratching, it turned out to be a broken engine mount.

As the car went fast enough around a corner that was sharp enough, the engine would lean over slightly and pull the wire to the firewall mounted ignition coil tight. This would break the circuit.
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FollowupID: 885897

Follow Up By: GREG T11 - Monday, Nov 20, 2017 at 20:27

Monday, Nov 20, 2017 at 20:27
Gee, that's a hard one. Diagnosis of a old holden six.
1/ fuel in bowl of pump.
2/ fuel in carb
3/ we got some spark ?
still no go well undo 2 nuts and a fuel line and take carb off for closer inspection. 10 mins tops to do this.
It is not rocket science and I wonder how many apprentices they trained not many I hope.
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FollowupID: 885927

Reply By: pop2jocem - Monday, Nov 20, 2017 at 21:21

Monday, Nov 20, 2017 at 21:21
Consider if you will, how many "inputs' you need to get an old mechanical fuel pump to deliver the goods.
Basically fuel in the tank and a clear run to the pump.
Add some air and a cam shaft in mechanical symphony with the crankshaft.
So pretty much one input, how far the "nut behind the wheel" shoves his boot towards the firewall.
Now consider the modern marvel that is the ECU controlled, multi sensor, voltage sensitive, wiring harnessed, variable vaned turbo, variable timing camshaft, 23 gazillion psi fuel pump equipped very very sensitive to anything other than operating theater pure fuel engine and try telling an old and now happily retired diesel mechanic (mechanic, not technician with a degree in advanced electronic control) why you would rather go bush in the latest incarnation of whatever brand tickles your fancy.

And God help me, because no mortal could, I just bought one.

Cheers
Pop
AnswerID: 615117

Reply By: Genny - Tuesday, Nov 21, 2017 at 14:28

Tuesday, Nov 21, 2017 at 14:28
Not related to the thread, other than a comment on diagnostic ability of experts.
A few years ago, I blew the headlight fuse in my Hyundai. I didn't have a spare, so I just grabbed the air conditioner fuse, and stuck that in. Next day, the missus was taking the car in for a service. I said "Don't forget to get them to replace the A/C fuse."

Of course, by the time she gets to the dealership, woman-speak has translated that into "The A/C isn't working".

Later that day, she tells me the dealership want the car back next Thursday to replace the faulty air conditioner switch, and they've quoted $280 for the "repair".

No, they didn't see that car ever again. Strangely, a ten cent fuse from Supercheap got my air conditioner working again.
AnswerID: 615133

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