Mitsubishi Challenger 2.5 Ltr Diesel

Submitted: Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 14:33
ThreadID: 135976 Views:2825 Replies:7 FollowUps:17
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I put my a 2015 Mitsubishi Challenger 2.5 Ltr diesel in for it's 30,000 km service on Monday (major service) and that afternoon I was told that they had a problem. Apparently the timing belt had jumped one tooth and they had no idea why. This was found towards the end of the service, the tappets had been done and after replacing and bleeding the fuel injection lines, which were removed, they found that the engine was not operating as it should. Further investigation revealed a timing problem and when the timing cover was removed they found that the timing belt and cog were one tooth out of mesh. There is no indication of a faulty/worn belt or damage to the belt teeth, or any damage to the cog or belt tensioner. They have notified Mitsubishi Motors for advice etc. The service centre checked the condition of the combustion chambers via a borascope through the injector holes and today, on advice from Mitsubishi, they are removing the head to do a more thorough inspection of the piston crowns and valves etc. Their aim is to find the cause of the problem rather than just put it all back together and hope it is fixed. I am baffled by this because the car was running fine before the service, which included 3 interstate caravan towing trips, fuel economy has always been good and the timing gear was not included in the service. Fortunately all this extra work is covered under warranty and the service department is keeping me informed. The downside is that I have been without a car for 3 days so far, and I am being driven around by my wife. Any ideas would be appreciated.
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Reply By: Glenn C5 - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 14:50

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 14:50
Hi Phil. Best idea would be to be nice to "wifey" or you might be walking everywhere. Good luck.
AnswerID: 615501

Reply By: Notso - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 15:20

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 15:20
Go and ask your dealer nicely for a loan car. Since you'll be without it for a while it'd be fair enough.
AnswerID: 615503

Follow Up By: Notso - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 15:41

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 15:41
Hate to suggest it but what might the technician have done to create this problem? The engine must be rotated to get the tappets into the correct position to adjust them.
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FollowupID: 886505

Reply By: RMD - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 15:49

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 15:49
Phil.
I would ask if the person doing the valve adjustment moved the crankshaft and camshaft to the next position by using a spanner/socket on the camshaft and not turned the crankshaft.

Doing that causes the larger dia cam related wheels to try and drive the smaller, ie half size crankshaft timing wheel.
To do that there has to be a large torque applied to the cam related wheels and therefore tries to stretch the toothed belt.
Because the mechanic has to have the engine stopped to do this, the cam tensioner IS NOT tensioned and so it becomes relatively easy to have a wheel move in relation to the belt.
I am utterly amazed the dealer has NO IDEA of the cause, they are just not admitting laibility and since it was working correctly beforehand and NOT after the adjustment, to me, it can only have been caused by a dumb mechanic who does not know much about what he is working on.
"DURR what way do we turn this boss"???

If it is a manual vehicle he may also have left it in gear as he tried to turn the cam and being in gear would make it even harder and more likely to force the belt over one tooth as it creates maximum slack in the belt.
One tooth might not have caused any internals to collide and create permanent damage, lucky in one way he didn't jump 2 teeth while performing his tricks otherwise it would have destroyed the valves at least.

Dealer destruction at it's finest.

The least they should be doing is to provide a loan car for the period and you should insist on a NEW belt being fitted to ensure integrity of the cam drive mechanism.

After it is repaired and running well say goodbye to that dealer for the safety of your vehicle.
AnswerID: 615505

Follow Up By: Phil - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 16:09

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 16:09
RMD, good point on the method used in the adjustment, I,ve been racking my brain trying to think what went wrong and didn,t think of that. I did suspect some form of mechanic error. Car was perfect before it went in. I will be talking to the service manager and will insist on a new belt. I will also question him on the method used. They did offer a loan car but I declined, I actaully don't mind my wife driving and we don,t need a second car at the moment.
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FollowupID: 886506

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 16:23

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 16:23
Some valid points, but pushing it to turn crank would not do it otherwise how can you push start a vehicle?
The hydraulic tensioners also have a spring built in dont they?
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FollowupID: 886507

Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 17:13

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 17:13
fisho64
It isn't the pushing of the vehicle which we are discussing, it is the movement of the crank to the next position for valve adjustment by rotating the cam shaft and not the crankshaft.That pulls the slack on one side of the drive system while compressing the tensioner spring which does not have oil pressure at that tim ebecause it isn't running.

Push starting has nothing to do with this at all. Even if you push start it, the crank is still driving the cam as per normal.
I mentioned the "in gear" because if a manual, the engine wouldn't want to turn via cam shaft input and the absolute maximum reverse tension would be being applied to the belt. Hence the jump over on the slack.

Totally mechanic ERROR.
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FollowupID: 886512

Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 17:15

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 17:15
Phil.
Just because you don't really require a courtesy vehicle to drive isn't the point. It is the inconvenience to the dealer who has inconvenienced you which is an item to be considered. Even if you park it in your garage for the duration.
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Follow Up By: Notso - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 17:25

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 17:25
I've heard somewhere that trying to rotate the crank in the wrong direction can loosen the toothed belt and cause it to jump a tooth as well. This all assumes that the tensioner is designed to work in one direction of belt travel.
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FollowupID: 886515

Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 18:26

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 18:26
I reckon RMD is on the money.

And now that same incompetent mechanic is pulling the head off, giving himself plenty more scope to stuff up even further what was a near new engine.

It would be almost better if there was internal damage so the OP could go the dealer for a new engine.

What a shame.
FrankP

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FollowupID: 886518

Follow Up By: Member - Rustygq - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 19:00

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 19:00
these days there are no mechanics only service technicians. If the computer doesn't tell them the problem they know jack.

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Follow Up By: Zippo - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 19:49

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 19:49
Toothed belt tensioners 101:

Tensioners - whether spring, hydraulic or combination - work on the "slack" side of toothed belts. If you are going to turn either the camshaft(s) or the crank manually, you MUST turn the crankshaft in the normal direction, or the camshaft(s) in the REVERSE direction, to maintain the residual tension in the tensioned side and avoid tooth jumping.

In this case IMO it's pretty clear that the apprentice turned the camshaft forwards.
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FollowupID: 886522

Follow Up By: Zippo - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 19:58

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 19:58
RMD, I wouldn't waste my breath asking what they did - they are already heading for cover and will not admit what happened, or they wouldn't be pulling the head off.

When the need arises to rotate the camshaft to the next position, the "easy" way is to stick a socket/ring on the head of the cam gear retaining bolt. The "sucker" way is to then rotate it in the direction that won't risk undoing it. But that rotates the cam in the normal operating direction, risking tooth jumping as I mentioned elsewhere.

I know this is like teaching grandma to suck eggs by mentioning it here, as most who have done any engine service work would know all this. Pity the stealership's lad didn't, hadn't been taught, and wasn't supervised.
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FollowupID: 886524

Reply By: Member - Trouper (NSW) - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 16:00

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 16:00
I agree with RMD here. These so called 'service centres' managers will say anything to get the 'heat' off them. I'd be looking for someone else to do your servicing. And I don't mean Mitsubishi either.
AnswerID: 615506

Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 17:19

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 17:19
I found out 2 days ago the Service centre manager of the local Mercedes dealer didn't know much about tyres or inflation or anything else for that matter. The owner of the vehicle asked what his "mechanical qualifications" were and he said he didn't have any, he came to the job after being an accountant. Figure that one out. Enough said, or is that enough SAD.
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FollowupID: 886514

Reply By: Member - mechpete - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 18:15

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 18:15
the problem will most likely be the mechanic mucked up
an caused the problem
with electronics on engines today I would bet that if the vavle timing was out it would have brought up the eng check an there would be a noticeable
drivability concern especially on common rail engines
cheer mechpete
AnswerID: 615512

Follow Up By: William P - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 18:45

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 18:45
What has it got to do with a common rail design - doesn't matter if it is a common rail or not, having valve timing out is the same.
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FollowupID: 886519

Follow Up By: Phil - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 19:46

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 19:46
I spoke to the service manager this afternoon and he reluctantly agrees that the "mechanic" may have been at fault, ie rotated the engine by the camshaft instead of the crankshaft hence causing the belt to jump. RMD, the car is an automatic but I assume if the gearbox is in Park then the engine would also be difficult to rotate. The head has been removed, no sign of piston or valve damage, and has gone to a head reconditioner for the valves to be removed and checked. I am assured that a new timing belt will be fitted. I have asked for a comprehensive report on this for my reference should I have trouble down the track. I expect to have the car back early next week. Thanks for the help and replies. Phil
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FollowupID: 886521

Follow Up By: Member - Tony H (touring oz) - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 21:51

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 21:51
Phil,
Sorry to hear of your current woes.
Please keep us up to speed on developments.
Hoping you have a speedy resolution.
Insanity doesnt run in my family.... it gallops!

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Follow Up By: Athol W1 - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 22:46

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 22:46
William P

With common rail diesels they have sensors for both crankshaft and camshaft positions, and if these do not meet the pre programmed parameters then there will be a fault code logged, bringing on the Engine Check Light and possibly entering the Limp Home mode.

I do not know of any older type diesels fitted with mechanical injection systems that have this standard of engine diagnostics.

Regards
Athol
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FollowupID: 886530

Follow Up By: Zippo - Thursday, Dec 14, 2017 at 00:24

Thursday, Dec 14, 2017 at 00:24
Phil, if the transmission is in Park, the engine is free to rotate - that's how it is when you start.
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FollowupID: 886531

Follow Up By: William P - Thursday, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:24

Thursday, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:24
Anthol - yes you are correct (all modern OHC diesels whether common rail or not have these sensors) but this thread is about jumping a tooth on the valve timing which can happen on any engine with a cam belt - the fact it is common rail is not relevant.

On this forum any engine problem seems to be put down to common rail and is rarely the case.
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FollowupID: 886535

Reply By: RMD - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 22:33

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2017 at 22:33
Phil
Seeing the head is already off and a head/valve check is to be done, I would insist on NEW valve stem seals be fitted.
If they simply remove the valves and then replace them they will have reseated them too. Possibly thevalves won't be in the same positions as original and the valve collet groove will "tear at" the fine seal lip and possibly damage each one of the 16 seals slightly, which means the seal will not be as good as it was before going to the dealer. Then it uses oil.

Also seeing the fuel inj lines have been removed it is common practice to replace ALL high pressure lines to ensure proper sealing.

Does the dealer now compensate you for then having a vehicle which doesn't have it's original integrity, ie, lasting a few hundred thousand km. Perhaps he will personally write a letter of surety of continued warranty at his cost, seeing he caused it.
AnswerID: 615515

Reply By: Member - cruza25 - Thursday, Dec 14, 2017 at 08:23

Thursday, Dec 14, 2017 at 08:23
Hi Phil
What RMD says is on the nail.
You now have a 30000km engine that has been through major trauma.

Insist that their most excellent mechanic does the rework with new seals and fuel lines. Hope he is good with a torque wrench as these need to be spot on.

Get a written extension on the warranty.

The dealer should give you free services for life haha???? but maybe you need to find a decent mechanic for the next time.
Cheers
Mike
AnswerID: 615516

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