Legal or illegal

Submitted: Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:36
ThreadID: 136354 Views:2344 Replies:16 FollowUps:27
I wish posters would not state an issue to be illegal (or legal) or believe to be illegal without some basis of proof ie. state the actual "act or statute". Otherwise this can prove to be very misleading. Just my point of view.
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Reply By: Member - Rowdy6032 (WA) - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:42

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:42
Good luck with that.
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Follow Up By: Aussie1 - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:49

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 12:49
Well, down the track some poster may need some luck if challenged on a point concerning law. And as you say "good luck with that"
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 14:00

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 14:00
Forums are places for views and opinions - nothing more - and should always be treated as such.

However there are a few old fellas on here who believe that their views and opinions are Fact no matter what.

Using forums for advice - the term caveat emptor applies - by all means take the views as you see fit but if there is a legal aspect always then research the appropriate laws yourself.
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Follow Up By: Aussie1 - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 14:22

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 14:22
Appreciate your point however, I believe there is a big difference between "advice" and stating "it's legal or illegal. As for Caveat emptor, it relates to the following "The principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made" .
I believe so called advice is far removed from purchased goods.
But I imagine it would be almost impossible to convince some "Bush Lawyers" otherwise.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 16:48

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 16:48
Whether a poster states something is legal or illegal - it is still no better than their "opinion" - take with a grain of salt and take advice from an authoritative source not a forum.
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Follow Up By: Batt's - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 21:53

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 21:53
As mentioned below is this in reference to something in particular that got under your skin ?

If every one done the correct research and found all the right answers then there would be no need for forums like this because they would have all the answers they need so technically you may be saying we don't need forums like this.
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Follow Up By: Member - DOZER - Sunday, Mar 11, 2018 at 18:25

Sunday, Mar 11, 2018 at 18:25
all care added, no responsibility taken.....its up to the individual to check....we are not here charging a fee for advice.
b4 you bag me out, walk a mile in my shoes, then your a mile away and have my shoes :)

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Reply By: gbc - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 14:08

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 14:08
Illegal use of my 30 seconds - yellow card - 10 minutes in the bin.
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 14:57

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 14:57
10 minutes!!! Is that Legal ? Michael
Patrol 4.2TDi 2003

Retired Xmas 2016 and now we are Out and About!

There's time to rest when you're dead,
Get out and do something instead!

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Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 17:27

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 17:27
gbc has no legal authority to detain anyone, therefore it would be illegal . . . I think :D
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Follow Up By: gbc - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 19:42

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 19:42
I have the whistle. Watch yourself fellah ;)
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Reply By: Ozi M - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 15:16

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 15:16
Maybe a poster could start with "in NSW the laws are ...................." or in SA the rules are.............

Include the state in the answer and that should remind people that rules and laws vary from state to state
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Follow Up By: Dion - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2018 at 21:19

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2018 at 21:19
Not only say that, but add a link to a credible reference.
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Reply By: Mick O - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 15:28

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 15:28
Hey Aussie,

Mate you’ll get that in every forum. It is after all, a ‘forum’. These things need to be taken as a grain of salt or if you really need to, called for what they are in as ‘forum appropriate’ manner as possible.

Again the advice you’ll get here is both good and bad but one thing I have noticed is that there are some actual experts in the varied fields that get discussed. While there are often far more self-declared or unofficial ‘experts’ whose opinions are generally the most opinionated and loudest, the sage advice of an ‘actual’ expert is easy to identify.

Every now and then I get a bit steamed up over some post, usually by a first time poster who’s signed on that day to have a gripe over something or deliberately troll, but I’ve always found it best to let it wash over me. Take yourself too seriously and you’re asking to have the piss taken (and that’s about the same as any forum).

Given there are fairly strict forum rules around contribution, this little patch of the WWW is a pretty well behaved place which I like. Unfortunately a blanket “State the act, reg and section number” or ‘state your qualifications before making assertion’ rule is highly unlikely lol.

Cheers

Mick

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trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Reply By: Life Member - Duncan W (WA) - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 15:41

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 15:41
Illegal - a sick bird.

Hey it's Friday.

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Follow Up By: Mick O - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 23:33

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 23:33
Dunc, that should have been in Friday Funnies :-)
''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Reply By: Notso - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 16:24

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 16:24
I guess as with any advice we get, we should evaluate it and at the end of the day, make a decision based on what we know, the advice we get and our current needs.

Other than that, the forum isn't a legal advice service so check it all out before doing anything.
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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 16:38

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 16:38
.
G'day Aussie,

It rather sounds like you have been reading the recent Thread on "15 amp to 10 amp cord".

This situation arises every time there is a thread involving electrical safety. The mere fact that many people are inexpert with electrical safety is the reason that Rules were created and legislation passed to control the risk.

As Mick O has answered.... "the advice you’ll get here is both good and bad" and you will also get conflicting advice on many other subjects. Tyres, oils, batteries, almost anything. After a while you get to know the responders who really know what they are talking about, but it can be confusing.

A real danger arises when incorrect advice is posted where safety may be involved, and that is certainly the case with electrical subjects.
It is here that the established Rules are given authority by legislation to protect persons from injury. With the protection of anonymity, some people will espouse beliefs and arguments that may encourage unsafe practices. As someone with qualified understanding of both the Rules and the laws pertaining to electrical equipment and installations I am obligated to challenge their errors in the interests of public safety.

The big problem that you and others have, is to identify the true experts so that you are not confused. To declare my qualifications each time I make a post would risk caustic criticism. There are some popular forums where moderators with (presumably) appropriate qualification control the behaviour or subjects such as electrical, but that is not the case on this forum. Here, everyone has a voice! lol

I am not sure that Mick O is correct when he says.... "the sage advice of an ‘actual’ expert is easy to identify." It may only be easy for another expert. But that is only my opinion.... not an authoritative view. lol



Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Genny - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 19:04

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 19:04
Like you, this post immediately made me think of the 15amp to 10amp thread. I was somewhat torn between holidaying ExporOz, or starting a thread about "suicide leads" and sitting back with a carton of popcorn!

:)
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Reply By: Michael H9 - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 18:36

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 18:36
If you wish for something, you aren't supposed to tell anyone. Now you're going to have every Tom, Dick and Harry giving bodgy legal advice for sure. That's in the Birthday Fairy Rule Book right at the start, it's a well known statute.
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Reply By: Member - Supersi - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 19:20

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 19:20
This is making me think of the thread that has just been started on GCM.

Get the popcorn ready for that thread!
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Follow Up By: Gerard S - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 20:10

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 20:10
Why use a forum for advice when you can use Facebook.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 22:51

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 22:51
Yep, you can REALLY believe the 10,000 version of the facts that 9,000 people give n Facebook. Lol
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 23:35

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 23:35
I must get me one of them there Face pages MH.

In this day and age, I reckon having the lightest digital footprint is best :-)

Cheers and safe travels to you this year.

Mick
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trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Reply By: skulldug - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 20:39

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 20:39
Aussie1,

Incorrect legal advice probably won’t kill you but incorrect technical advice can be shocking!

Skull
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Reply By: Motherhen - Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 23:06

Friday, Mar 02, 2018 at 23:06
Ultimately, the assessment of the law may well depend on the court of the day. Lawyers after all can only given an 'opinion', not tell you what the court will decide.

While many of us know what is illegal, eg we know we can't discharge a firearm in a town, we may not have easy access to the references to prove it and place a link on a forum.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bigfish - Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 09:55

Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 09:55
Many of us are only too well aware of how illegal it is to tow with our overweight vehicles but blissfully do it anyway. Many quite happily add mods to their vehicles which are also illegal. I dont care what people do as long as they are happy to suffer the consequences , if need be and doesn't
affect those around them.
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Reply By: Ron N - Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 02:21

Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 02:21
I can recall myself, many years ago, berating another (older, and pretty rough) earthmoving contractor, with regard to his overloaded low-loader trailer (which was seriously overloaded).

I said to him. "Your whole setup is illegal!'

His sharp reply to me? "Listen, I've been illegal since the day I was born! - and I ain't going to try and get legal, now!" LOL

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bigfish - Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 09:52

Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 09:52
If the forum was limited to only the pure people who have never done anything illegal at some time in their life then I think 0 members would not be classed as a very good forum!!
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Reply By: Iza B - Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 09:22

Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 09:22
Characterising any issue on the forum as illegal immediately shifts the issue away from any useful discussion into a back and forth reminding all of schoolyard level banter of "my legal knowledge is better than your legal knowledge". Legal or illegal can only be established in a court. Typically, a legal precedence is the first arbiter in arguing the situation. Precedence also typically discloses how an actual "act or statute" has been interpreted.

Declaring anyone's behaviour or method or setup as illegal is tantamount to Naming-and-Shaming; a practice supposedly prohibited on this site. Writing that someone is doing something illegal is defamatory and could lead to legal ramifications. Offering an opinion that something may not comply with regulations, or published rules, or in-force legislation, is acceptable. More than acceptable, presenting such opinion based in comparison of act or behaviour against regulation, advances everyone's knowledge. Readers of such comments can then make some personal determination of the credibility of the person offering the opinion. Simple judgements of "illegal" simply tell others that that person probably does not know how to show their opinion has value or are parroting some opinion they heard somewhere.

As said before, it would be good if the self declared experts infesting this site could confine themselves to technical advice and offering examples of how a practice or method is at odds with regulations or rules. The self declared experts can then leave declarations of legal or illegal to the properly qualified and who are supported by our legal system.

Iza
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 11:56

Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 11:56
.
Iza B asserts that "legal or illegal can only be established by a court". Try telling that to a cop with a speed gun Iza!
He goes on to say.... "a legal precedence is the first arbiter in arguing the situation" whatever that may have to do with the subject at hand. In fact any search will reveal that, in Australia, precedence relates to.... "the court whose previous decision is relied upon must be a higher court in the same legal system". Not the same thing at all and probably not what Hollywood may lead Iza to believe,

My expressions on electrical matters are supported by my engineering qualifications. I can only wonder what licence Iza has to dispense legal advice.

Iza entreats us to avoid certain "legal" expressions. Perhaps he should "Keep his own counsel"?
Cheers
Allan

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Reply By: 9900Eagle - Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 20:23

Saturday, Mar 03, 2018 at 20:23
Me legal, him illegal. While ago running down the Capricorn highway and byway my friend and I were ambling along with him behind. Well I was pulled up by the transport inspectors, they had the usual look around and check of my book. Nice they said on your way. So I am legal.

They get mate who is half hour behind and he gets down for being illegal.

Now the funny part is we are both illegal because we are over length. I was was driving B triple with a big banger that had 2400l tanks and a 54" sleeper (proper sleep in that one) putting me over the 36.5m length for that piece of bitumen. He was running a double that was around .1 of a metre shorter than my configuration. Well he gets done for over length and I drive away with roses on my tail.

See, difference between legal and illegal is in the eye of the beholder.
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Follow Up By: Dean K3 - Tuesday, Mar 13, 2018 at 20:28

Tuesday, Mar 13, 2018 at 20:28
Betcha if you re-configured the b triple into a b-double and then had dolly it be deemed OK

all depends of RAV route classification permits etc

Cab over vs bonnet also makes difference

good old measuring tape rules over commonsense at times

personally still trying to figure out difference between a pocket and a road train ie prime mover a trailer dolly B trailer - look same to me as they go past my place
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:23

Wednesday, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:23
Dean, a pocket road train is simply a road train limited to 27.5M overall length.

Specified for suburban use on arterial roads so they don't pose a major problem in traffic.

Generally, the pocket road train specification enables the hauling of two semi-tippers by a cabover prime mover, in suburban areas that are specified for pocket road train use.

This enables the larger construction projects where sizeable quantities of dirt are required to be moved in or out, to proceed at a faster pace - with less truck movements overall.

The blokes with flat tops can also hook up 2 x 9M flat-top trailers with a short wheelbase prime mover, to make up a pocket road train.

This kind of setup is useful for transporting really heavy loads - earthmover components, smaller earthmovers, crane weights, and even bricks.
Even with just a 9M trailer, it's easy to reach maximum axle loading just with a load of bricks.

HTE Transport - pocket road train

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Dean K3 - Wednesday, Mar 14, 2018 at 19:20

Wednesday, Mar 14, 2018 at 19:20
Yep had idea it was that Ron, something to do with length and weights involved.

admit whilst I confident aroudn rigs plenty aren't regardless of metro or country.

just yesterday down at bannister road house car pulled out along side of a pocket fuel train heading south flipped b trailer which collided with another semi and 2-3 cars.

How nobody was killed beyond me -unlike that footage from NSW showing a coles rig barrelling to tree pushing ute in front of it - accept was another idiot responsible that caused it
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:30

Thursday, Mar 15, 2018 at 10:30
Dean, when you see the poor levels of driving skills on country roads, it really does make you wonder how people get their licence.

People pulling out onto the highway without looking have caused innumerable accidents.

I can remember, many years ago, buying some used parts for my F100 from a wrecker.
I asked him what happened to the Effie he got the part off, because it was unusual to see them totally wrecked, back then.

He said, "The bloke collected a loaded semi-trailer, full-on, that was going sideways up the Eyre Hwy!".

I said, "How the dickens could that happen?"

And he said, "It was all started by a dope in a Kombi van! The Kombi van was parked in a truck bay, on the left of the hwy, heading East - and there was a Greyhound coach approaching the truck bay, heading East, with the F100 following it.
There was a fully loaded East-Wester semi approaching the truck bay, heading West".

"The dope in the Kombi pulled straight out onto the hwy, right into the path of the Greyhound coach - so the coach driver swerved right, to avoid wiping out the Kombi!"

"In doing so, the coach driver swerved into the path of the oncoming semi! - so the semi driver took to the bush on the LHS of the hwy - then after the coach passed, he swerved hard right, to get back onto the hwy - and lost it!"

"He broadsided the semi right across the hwy at right angles - right into the path of the bloke in the F100!"
"The bloke in the Effie had nowhere to go, he was looking straight at 40 feet of semi coming at him, side-on!"

"He collected the semi full-on, and it totally destroyed the Effie! Fortunately, there were no fatalities or major injuries."

And the whole exercise was entirely the fault of one idiot who thought he was the only one using the highway.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Thursday, Mar 15, 2018 at 20:24

Thursday, Mar 15, 2018 at 20:24
Any money it was a German tourist who checked left instead of right? Yeah, he should have checked both, but......
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Reply By: mountainman - Sunday, Mar 04, 2018 at 14:39

Sunday, Mar 04, 2018 at 14:39
I swear this person is from scienfeld the tv show.
Just like a show about nothing specific

A thread about nothing
In general
Or anything
Or anyone
Maybe a rumor
Maybe a fact

Thing is no one knows
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Mar 04, 2018 at 21:42

Sunday, Mar 04, 2018 at 21:42
That's a very deep and meaningful observation, Mountin' Man!

Did you study literature in great depth, during your lifetime? [;-)

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Follow Up By: Member - DOZER - Sunday, Mar 04, 2018 at 23:09

Sunday, Mar 04, 2018 at 23:09
mods, he swore
b4 you bag me out, walk a mile in my shoes, then your a mile away and have my shoes :)

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Reply By: Michael H9 - Friday, Mar 09, 2018 at 07:10

Friday, Mar 09, 2018 at 07:10
If laws were black and white then we wouldn't need judicial tribunals to determine if they had been broken or not. This means that a lot of laws are subject to interpretation which varies according to the circumstances. I'm not religious, but a simple, yet ludicrous example, is God's law written in the 10 commandments "Thou shalt not kill", sometimes written as "Thou shalt not murder", who knows? How does that sit with soldiers at war? Perhaps God phoned up and gave them all a pass? It all depends on the definition of the words in the law and words can mean different things to different people.
For this reason, it's prudent for anyone with any sense, to put a "maybe" in front of any statement of legality or illegality offered up on an internet forum.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Friday, Mar 09, 2018 at 12:25

Friday, Mar 09, 2018 at 12:25
Actually, Michael - to be safe, the poster should supply a legal disclaimer, for two reasons -

1. It is illegal (there ya go, that word again!) under law, to publically offer up legal advice, without possessing official legal qualifications.
A lot of bush lawyers don't even know this!

2. You stand to be sued if you specify incorrect advice, and someone follows your incorrect advice, and suffers injury, loss, or is killed by following your advice.

I think the simplest and best approach to forums is to view all the advice offered (because that's all it is) as just general advice - and if one has a problem involving legalities, then one is best advised to seek professional legal advice!

As they say about forums - the advice you get, is worth exactly the amount you paid for it!!

Cheers, Ron
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Friday, Mar 09, 2018 at 13:27

Friday, Mar 09, 2018 at 13:27
.

Quote from above...."Illegal to offer legal advice unless qualified"?

Didn't you just do that Ron? lol

Although I think you may have omitted....... "for gain or reward". That's not advice you understand, just an observation.
Cheers
Allan

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