Gross Combined Mass GCM

I know that GCM is specified for recent 200 LCs but I have read that it wasn't specified when the 200 first appeared.

These are the specs as listed in Red Book for both petrol and diesel versions of 2009 200 series LC

Ignore red book and read the 2009 owners hand book.

My Owner's Manual specifies Gross Vehicle Weight at 3,300kg (and on the compliance plate), Gross axle weights and a Trailer tongue load max of 350kg. There is no mention of GCM, so, I'm none the wiser.

The Red Book figures are clearly wrong if it states GVM to be 3,180kg.

Keep reading, it should tell you how to work it out
Toyota do not have a GVM for early models

The following extract is taken from ADR61/02 2005 Vehicle Markings. Refer clause 8.1.2.5. An NC category vehicle is one with a GVM exceeded 12 tonnes.

"8. VEHICLE PLATE
8.1. On every ME, NC and T-Group vehicle there must be permanently affixed a plate mounted in a prominent position containing information in accordance with the following requirements:
8.1.1. The information must be embossed, indented, etched or engraved on a durable label which is welded, riveted or otherwise permanently attached in a readily visible position.
8.1.2. The information must be in the English language in block letters and numerals which must not be less than 2.5 mm in height, and must comprise:
8.1.2.1. Manufacturer’s’ Name;
8.1.2.2. Vehicle Model;
8.1.2.3. Vehicle Identification Number’;
8.1.2.4. ‘Date of Manufacture’ - unless fitted with a ‘Compliance Plate’;
8.1.2.5. ‘Gross Combination Mass’ (kg) - for NC category vehicles;
8.1.2.6. Maximum towing capacity (i.e. the ‘Aggregate Trailer Mass’ for which the towing vehicle is designed) (kg) - for ME Category vehicles; ‘Aggregate Trailer Mass’ (kg) - for trailers."

Thanks Blown4by
I'm not trying to increase my towing capacity - it is 3,500kg and that is OK. It was my LC 200 that was overloaded and I have increased the GCM by 280kgs. However, unless the GCM is also increased I will be stuck with 6,800kg as GCM (not that I have ever been able to find a GCM for this 2009 model - perhaps I should write to Toyota).

Blown4by
Are you able to find the ADR for the category in which the LC 200 falls?

Geoff I am not sure what you mean by: "the ADR for the category in which the LC 200 falls'' The LC200 is an MC category vehicle which in layman's terms means: "a passenger vehicle with off-road capability". If you look in the top right hand corner of the Australian Compliance Plate (sticker) (not the Manufacturers Build Plate) you will see the word: "Category" and next to it the letters: "MC". As I said if your GVM has been increased to 3580kg and the vehicle is rated to tow 3500kg then the GCM is now 7080kg as you say. You could try but I'm not sure Toyota would be much help. In my experience vehicle manufacturers are not usually interested or very supportive when owners modify their vehicles after the vehicle has been complied in Australia. Technically the modified vehicle is now 'non-standard' and the modifier/owner takes over responsibility for that part of the vehicle design from the vehicle manufacturer. I'm not sure what jurisdiction you live in but you just need to ensure your vehicle license papers reflect the upgraded GVM and I would advise you to let your insurance Company know as well. As long as the GVM increase is approved under the Federal RVCS system or an Engineer accredited by your Licensing jurisdiction then you shouldn't have any problems should you ever get weighed or heaven forbid, be involved in an accident regardless of who is at fault.

(not that I have ever been able to find a GCM for this 2009 model - perhaps I should write to Toyota).
--------------------------------

I have asked Toyota at their head office, not a dealer, a couple of times and they have been very helpful. In all cases like this though, the people who will have the final say are the ones who pull you over and weigh your car and van. Maybe you should ask them.

Phil (and Blown4by), My GVM upgrade was done by ARB using Old Man Emu parts (springs and shocks). The work done was very shoddy and dangerous and was inspected by an engineer who did not detect the dangerous situation (suspension hub bolts all but falling out). That's for another story but, suffice to say, I will never again allow any monkey who is not a suspension specialist (such as Lovells) to work on my vehicles. ARB are accessory sellers, not suspension specialists.
The GVM has been upgraded to 3,580kg and the modification is noted on the rego papers.
At the Lovells site from the link you gave, I could find no mention of GCM.
Where am I now? I thank Blown4by for concluding that my view that GCM is just the sum of GVM and towing capacity is correct. I hope Blown4by's view is authoratitive, as there seems to be nothing else. It would be interesting, if this matter of GCM for passenger vehicles ever got to court, to put the manufacturer on the stand and ask how they determine GCM. I'll bet they just add the GVM and towing capacity together.

200series axle loadings add up to 3580kg.
Lovells do 3800kg and say they have engineering assessments that state the Landcruiser axles and other components are capable of this higher load.
I suspect the extra $2000 you pay for their upgrade helps pay for a fairly heft insurance policy!

Thanks Gone Bush, that's exactly what I've been looking for - proof that Toyota, before recent models, regarded the GCM of the 200 as the sum of the legal GVM and trailer mass.
I, too, will carry a copy in my glovebox.

Thanks again.

Kind regards

Geoff

You're welcome Geoff.

It's also interesting to note that the ARB GVM upgrade that you have (I have the same one) is the only one that does not exceed our vehicle's axle load rating.

I don't think it's that clear. To me it's a poor document and quite ambiguous.

I can see how you have come to your conclusion, but I also read

"GCM refers to the total permissible combined weight of the vehicle and trailer/caravan being towed including occupants, fuel and cargo."

simply as a description, or definition of the term GCM and not as specifying that the GCM for the particular vehicle is the sum of GVM plus max trailer weight.

I suppose if it were ever tested by Plod the ambiguity might end up in your favour, but a clear and unequivocal statement from Toyota Australia would be better, IMO.

Cheers

If you have 5kg of bananas and 3 kg of apples, what's the total weight of all the "fruit" you have?

5 + 3 = 8

"combined weight".....

Pretty clear to me.

I think what seals it for me is that Toyota did not (apparently) specify a numerical value for GCM for the early 200 models, only a description of how to calculate it.

Even for the new models, it could still be argued (in court, if necessary) that Toyota has determined a numerical GCM by simply adding the GVM and towing capacity together and that a revised GVM thereby determines a revised GCM

That's exactly right Geoff.

It reeks of so much commonsense, I can't work out why people can't accept it.

Maybe it's because commonsense itself is largely unrecognisable these days.

Isn’t there a loophole where you can tow 3850 kg with those, being that the tow ball mass is on the car and it can tow 3500? I know guys with borderline boats where trying to make it work that way and got it to work until the later models were released. I can’t recall exactly.

I would have thought (but I don't know) that the trailer mass limit of 3,500kg means the total mass of the trailer, not just the weight sitting on the trailer wheels.

It all comes back to me now, It was all about upgrades.

With that model Cruiser, you can upgrade the GVM to 3800 k.g., upgrade the Braked towing mass to 4000 k.g., and end up with a completely legal 7800 KG combination mass without any issue because GCM was left 'intentionally blank'

You can still get those numbers out of a 200 now but it is under second stage manufacture and costs quite a bit more under the new laws - still possible though.

Finally, no, a vehicle's tow capacity is calculated on the ATM of the towed load, not the GTM, so the ball weight is vehicle payload - otherwise you'd be measuring it twice, so any standard vehicle with a 3500 kg tow rating can tow that weight + the ball weight if you are looking at a trailer's GTM. If you need to be doing these calcs I'd suggest buying a bigger car, but that is the law if you are borderline.
Transport compliance guys don't take trailers off cars and measure jockey wheel loads, they just measure axle weights.

Quote "Legal GVM + Max Towing Weight = GCM"

That is not so. From Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule – Definitions and Vehicle Categories) 2005 Compilation 4

GROSS COMBINATION MASS - value specified for the vehicle by the
'Manufacturer‘ as being the maximum of the sum of the 'Gross Vehicle Mass‘ of
the drawing vehicle plus the sum of the 'Axle Loads‘ of any vehicle capable of
being drawn as a trailer.

Suggest you redo your calculations and start again. The members may then take some notice of what you say.

Don’t tell me to redo my sums, Peter.

Tell Toyota.

Get on the phone to Toyota and tell them that THEY are wrong.

Take your Forum bully tactics to the source.

Let us know how you go.

I won’t be holding my breath. It’s far easier for your type to bully individuals than take on a corporation, isn’t it?

Go on.

GET ON THE PHONE TO TOYOTA. Or just bugger off.

Calm down. The posting by PeterD is good news for me. My GCM is therefore:

LC200 loaded (incl ball weight) 3,470kg + axle loads of caravan (excl ball weight of 280kg) of 3,340kg = 6,810kg, ie only 10kg over the original GCM of 6,800kg applicable before I upgraded the LC suspension. I'm legal as regards GCM, hoorah (except to the 10kg excess, which I can ditch).

However, the caravan ATM is still exceeded by 120kg when everything is full, as is, I assume, the towing limit of the LC. Most of the time, I carry a smaller quantity of water to stay legal.

Does the towing capacity of the tow vehicle (LC=3,500kg) refer to ATM or GTM of a caravan? Given that 280kg ball weight of the caravan weight is included in the GVM of the LC, to include ball weight in the towing capacity limit of the LC would seem to be double counting.

Does anyone know what tolerance, if any, the transport inspectors might allow? I have heard that, in NSW, it is 250kg for trucks.

Read my post above - again

Do you think that I should calm down when this comment is posted?

"Suggest you redo your calculations and start again. The members may then take some notice of what you say."

Forum bullies need to be called out.

gbc - I did read it again. Have you got ATM and GTM round the wrong way? You say "any standard vehicle with a 3500 kg tow rating can tow that weight + the ball weight", ie. 3,780kg in my case.

However, the definition of ATM under the ADRs is:
"AGGREGATE TRAILER MASS (ATM) - the total mass of the laden trailer when carrying the maximum load recommended by the ‘Manufacturer’. This will include any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the ‘Combination Vehicle’ is resting on a horizontal supporting plane.

What we need to solve this is a definition of the tow rating of a vehicle under the ADRs or other law - is it ATM or GTM?

There may be some formal statement somewhere in ADRs or something, but this is my take on it:

Logic says it has to be ATM.

Towball downforces are variable - a 3500kg trailer can have any towball downforce, though there is the well known recommended range of 8-12% of trailer weight. But then, European caravans don't necessarily adhere to that rule of thumb and their towball downforces are often considerably less.

The long and the short of it is, the vehicle manufacturer has absolutely no idea of what towball downforce the vehicle is going to encounter under ANY trailer weight. Therefore it cannot possibly be taken into account when specifying a max trailer weight. Therefore the max specified weight must be ATM, which includes the towball weight.

My response to Nomadic Navara's post is especially pertinent since I noticed that he went back and edited his original post to include the snide comment:

"The members may then take some notice of what you say".

Here is a screen shot of his post as sent to me automatically by ExplorOz:



When people go back to add something nasty, it needs to be called out for what it is:

Bullying.

Hi gbc,
Just wondering who does that braked towing mass upgrade to 4000kg and does an Engineer sign off on it? Not wanting to get it done myself, just interested that's all.
Thanks in advance.

Whoever does it has to plate the mod. Companies like Lovell’s do the testing and engineering for a particular model and then distribute the kits to guys like the link below, that way each car doesn’t need to be retested.

http://www.bamgarage.com/braked-towing-upgrade-lc200-4000kg/

Hi all

I realise this conversation is about 200 series but when arb done the gvm upgrade on my 79 series I was informed that my gcm didn’t change. My ute is now rated to 3.78t so if it is loaded to 3.78t I can only tow 3.02t. It has this printed on the new mod plate fixed to my vehicle

Just thought I would share this.

Greg

The bottom line is the certifying engineer will include everything that he certifies as having been changed on the new compliance plate. If there is no new figure for GCM then there is no change in GCM change from the standard GCM.

So what did Toyota say, Peter?

No doubt you took the argument up with them.

No?

Why am I not surprised?

Why should I check with Toyota. It was you who blindly quoted them without checking hins and you used the formula "Legal GVM + Max Towing Weight = GCM" which s wrong. Go back to the legal definition of GCM and do a rethink. You also made the wong assumption "So a legal GVM upgrade increases the GCM." The GCM is not increased unless the certifying engineer certifies that it has

Why should you check with Toyota?

Because it’s THEIR words, Peter!

Don’t shoot the messenger.

Go to the originator of the message.

GO ON.

Maybe calculations was a wrong word to use. I have reread Toyota's words, there is noting in them about the actual figures of GCM or GVM or any way of calculating them. All it said was you had to watch your loadings and make sure you did not exceed the permitted axle loadings. You started with an incorrect premise, quoted your vehicles handbook and then made a statement that I am very puzzled as how you came to your conclusion from what Toyota said.

“or any way of calculating them.”

What is it about this statement of Toyota’s that you don’t understand?

"GCM refers to the total permissible combined weight of the vehicle and trailer/caravan being towed including occupants, fuel and cargo."

Let's get back to the basics of this whole question re GCM.

First, is it the case that, for vehicles with a GVM of less than 4.5 tonnes, manufacturers are not required to specify a GCM?

Second, is it a fact (and I believe it is) that Toyota did not specify a GCM for early 200s' (pre-2015???)?

Third, if Toyota did not specify a GCM, the definition of GCM (see my posting below -Geoff49) is such figure as the Roads and Maritime Services in NSW specifies - does anyone know what that is?

Fourth, given that most manufacturers which do specify a GCM seem to use the sum of the GVM and Rated Towing Capacity, can the RMS use any other figure, ie, the new GVM and the existing rated towing capacity?

Therefore, for the early 200's, it seems that a GVM upgrade is capable of increasing the GCM by the same amount.

For later 200's, where Toyota does specify a GCM, it would seem still to be arguable under the NSW definition of GCM that the manufacturer's specification is no longer relevant if "(iii) the vehicle has been modified to the extent that the manufacturer's specification is no longer appropriate."

I don't think we will get a definitive answer to this without a court case.

Thanks for everyone's contribution. Geoff49

Geoff, Have you actually asked arb what their view is on this. They signed off on your modification, they just might know the answer to your question.

Geoff49,

Have you supplied all of your details to RMS and asked them for a determination of your GCM (as in kgs - not legalese claptrap) ?

Regards

I have had some dealings with the RMS concerning the (incorrect) registration of a NSW-based caravan in QLD or VIC to get cheaper rego rates. I found it very difficult to find anyone who would give an opinion on anything.

Eventually I got it in writing that the person agreed with my conclusion that a van garaged in NSW or kept in NSW for most of the time and registered in VIC is not legally registered for use in NSW. Therefore no insurance either if something happens in NSW.

Further research can also show (in my opinion) that such a van is not in fact legally registered for use in any state - but that's another story.

So, in other words you have'nt bothered. Good luck with relying on the advice given by the lunatics and self appointed experts in this thread (and any other for that matter).

Regards

I told you why I haven't bothered - RMS does not give written opinions and oral opinions are not worth the paper they're written on.

This forum can do without pricks like you.

You have already stated :

"Eventually I got it in writing that the person agreed with my conclusion that a van garaged in NSW or kept in NSW for most of the time and registered in VIC is not legally registered for use in NSW. Therefore no insurance either if something happens in NSW."

How do you know they will not EVENTUALLY give you something in writing regarding your GCM? What have you got to lose?

p.s. keep up the keyboard warrior stuff. It suits you.

Regards

The following definition comes from the Road Transport Act 2013 (NSW).
Sub-paragraph (b)(iii) would seem to be appropriate for a towing vehicle that has been modified to increase GVM. In that case the GCM is the figure specified by the authority (Roads and Maritime Services in NSW). Who knows what that might be. At least, it provides a basis for an argument with a transport inspector.
"GCM (gross combination mass)" of a motor vehicle means the greatest possible sum of the maximum loaded mass of the motor vehicle and of any vehicles that may lawfully be towed by it at one time:
(a) as specified by the motor vehicle's manufacturer (and this was not specified for early 200's -Geoff49), or
(b) as specified by the Authority if:
(i) the manufacturer has not specified the sum of the maximum loaded mass, or
(ii) the manufacturer cannot be identified, or
(iii) the vehicle has been modified to the extent that the manufacturer's specification is no longer appropriate.