To Pug or not to Pug

Submitted: Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 09:10
ThreadID: 136542 Views:1076 Replies:6 FollowUps:17
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I'm trying to find out if the new Peugeot 2.0D 5008 will safely tow my standard 2008 Jayco Swan (no accessories fitted). The dealer has only quoted me the 1500kg figure. Online, this is the only info I can find: "It’s only just been confirmed with the homologation authorities in Canberra, but the 5008 is officially ruled in for towing 1350kg (petrol) or 1500kg (diesel), with a tow ball weight of 70kg."

Am I right in thinking the 5008 is not suitable? I believe the empty swan noseweight is 90kg?
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Reply By: Shaker - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 09:18

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 09:18
It seems to me that you have answered your own question with the figures that you supplied us.
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Reply By: Ron N - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 13:30

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 13:30
These owners of a Jayco Swan state the ball weight is 125kg.

SEQ camping blogspot

The 1500kg maximum towing ability for the diesel is correct, according to the sales brochure on the 5008.

However, the stated ball weight of 70kgs seems very light to me and it would pay to inspect the Pugs towbar mounting arrangements to see if they really are as lightweight as suggested.

Apart from the low towball limitation, it appears the Pug is otherwise quite capable of towing the Jayco Swan.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: franklKTM450 - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 13:45

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 13:45
Thanks Ron. When you say mounting arrangements, do you mean the vehicle placard or towbar rating?

125kg even puts the new CX9 out of contention with its 100kg limit. Difficult choice I need to make is getting a vehicle that only needs to tow the jayco a few times per year. Otherwise, its mostly doing school runs and pulling a dirtbike trailer.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 15:35

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 15:35
"and it would pay to inspect the Pugs towbar mounting arrangements to see if they really are as lightweight as suggested."

Frank, I take that to mean take a look at where the tow bar hangs off the tug. To me, that is a pointless exercise as you are not going to do much about strengthening the mounting points. There is more to tow bar weights than the strength of the mountings. It also has a lot to do with how the tugs handling is upset when you hang that sort of ball weight on the back end.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 19:53

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 19:53
Frank, I was talking about examining the attachment points and the style of attachment of the towbar, to see if it really was that light in that area, and the 70kgs really is the correct manufacturers limit.

I'm not insinuating, as Peter suggests, to try and strengthen the attachment points or change the style of attachment - that is both illegal and pointless.
But a double check with the Pug dealer and an examination of the attachment points and method of attachment may soon make it clear whether the towbar really is a lightweight European effort, and not capable of any reasonable towball weight - or someone has made a mistake, and the towbar is very capable.

Most European towbars are lightweight, and European roads are very much smoother than most Australian roads, leading to a reduced requirement for absorbing road shocks, via the towball load capacity rating.

One has to keep in mind, it's just not the static towball load that is important, it's the ability of the towbar to take a hammering from that towball load.

When you drive on rough roads, that contain regular dips, sunken culverts, potholes, and pavement undulations, the towbar is getting reefed up and down regularly, with enormous force.

It's the equivalent of you inserting a long length of pipe in the towbar assembly and heaving it up and down, see-sawing it, like you're trying to break a piece of wire, by twitching it back and forth.

This is the constant up and down forces that all towbars have to endure - and that's why towbar attachment points and methods need to be substantial - and the bolts and nuts properly torqued and kept secure.

A lot of European cars towbars are only designed to haul those piddly little 5 x 3 trailers with the wheelbarrow wheels - and they do that, on roads that are as smooth as our freeways.
I've driven around Europe a fair bit, and I can assure you, their rural road surfaces are better than our major freeways road surfaces, on average.
Their freeways make our freeways look like the Oodnadatta Track.

As a result, most European vehicles are never really designed for the mounting of Australian towbars, nor are their "approved" towbars really satisfactory for Australian road conditions.
In fact, I've seen a few towbars on local vehicles that I reckon only just scraped through local strength requirements.

This is why I suggested a personal inspection to see what the towbar arrangement consists of.
Often, lying on your back and getting a good close look at the structural arrangements on the underside, that most people never bother to examine, can be a real eye-opener.

And of course, as I mentioned, getting the manufacturers towball weight limit directly from the dealers mouth, is the best way of acquiring correct information.

Cheers, Ron.
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Reply By: swampy - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 17:48

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 17:48
hi
Generally a Tug that tows at its max is not pleasant to drive. This is not in the manual !!
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 20:01

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 20:01
Swampy is spot on - and the other point that manufacturers like to gloss over, is that their "recommended towing limit" is often calculated with little to no load in their vehicles!

As soon as you load up with the maximum number of passengers, plus a full load of luggage, dogs or cats, and camping supplies - the manufacturers then start to reduce the vehicles towing capacity!

It seems funny that the Pug brochure doesn't list a GCM limit. This figure must be available somewhere - but they sure as hell don't make it easy to find!

Cheers, Ron.
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Reply By: franklKTM450 - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 21:09

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 21:09
The fact that their is such little information out there on a car that has already been released makes me feel uncomfortable. It's a little frustrating that 3 different dealers today mentioned the brochure figure of 1500kg. No dealer could confirm or I suspect were willing to mention over the phone. I even had one salesperson ask if I wanted to put a deposit whilst the information was being sourced.

Anyway, I am moving on from the Pug. Next on the list is the new Sante Fe that will be released shortly. It has the option of an upgraded tow pack to increase the downball limit to 150kg. So much more info on the Hyundai that is yet to come out than the Pug.

Thank you everyone.
AnswerID: 618293

Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 17:11

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 17:11
Don't know about their towing abilities, Frank, but have you had a look at the specs of the Mazda CX-5 diesel.

Pull like a train, smooth auto 'box and quite comfortable. In fact, their torque output of 420nM is only 30nM less than the Landcruiser ute's V8. We've had one for over 18 months, and done mostly long trips with it. Not exciting to drive, IMO, but one does get a little excited when the economy is around 6.7L/100, or less.

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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 19:52

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 19:52
I delivered a CX5 for a mate, the distance was only 750K but the auto and engine were as smooth as. It pulled like a train overtaking and the only thing I found was the front suspension was a little rough, once the suspension heated up it was a lot better. Don't know about fuel as I don't know the tank size, I filled it and it still said it had 160K left to empty at the end of the run.

One thing I didn't like was the engine auto stop/start function when you pull up at a set of lights, you can cancel the function, but you have to do it again if you stop and shut the engine down.

Overall, pretty impressed with it.
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 20:54

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 20:54
The auto stop is annoying, especially when you forget to cancel it!

Can't remember actual fuel tank size, Slow, but would be good for nearly 800kms with some frugal driving. Amuses me that hidden under the bonnet is an engine about the size of a 30 pack of 4X Gold, with twin turbo & a big intercooler.

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Reply By: Ron N - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 21:19

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 21:19
Frank - I found a photo of the Pug 5008 towbar under their accessories page - and I'd have to opine that this lightweight-looking thing is a classic European towbar, designed to haul 5 x 3 trailers - and it does appear to me, that the 70kg towball limit quoted, would be correct.

My opinion as to its towing capabilities? - run away! - run far away! - and run away fast! ... [;^)

Cheers, Ron.

AnswerID: 618294

Follow Up By: franklKTM450 - Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 21:30

Saturday, Apr 14, 2018 at 21:30
Oh that's just crap. Kinda looks like the towbar on my rideon mower. I dont even want to tow my dirtbike with that thing.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 00:02

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 00:02
That is obviously from the European brochure and the European goose neck tow bar - they are illegal in Australia. The Australian tow pack will be different.

If the 70kg tow ball limit is correct it has nothing to do with the tow bar - it is in the design spec of the car. The only requirement of the tow bar is that its tow ball limitation has to match or exceed the tow ball limitation of the car. If the tow bar spec is lower than that of the car then obviously the tow capacity lowers as well.

I suspect that the dealers are going off the European specs and have not been told the Aussie specs - may very well remain at 70kg but it will not have that tow bar.

By way of example - my Range Rover Sport has a UK tow ball weight of 150kg with a goose neck tow bar similar to the Pug. The Aussie Spec is 350kg and has a specific Aust/USA LR bar.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 00:11

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 00:11
Garrycol - Well, that brochure photo was pulled directly off the Peugeot Australia website, and it is supposed to show Australian-spec Peugeots - and their accessories.

If it's showing European spec Peugeots and their accessories (that are different to what is being provided), then I would think the ordure could hit the fan when an unhappy customer comes to that realisation, and starts kicking up.

Under Australian Consumer Law, when providing sales information on a product, the company is supposed to supply accurate information relating to the precise product provided, not a product produced for another country.

To do otherwise, falls under the "deceptive and misleading conduct" section of the ACL.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 00:32

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 00:32
Well Ron if you took the time to look your will see all the vehicles in that brochure are left hand drive.

So following your logic these vehicles will all be sold as LHD in Aust .

Also read the small print at the end of the brochure.

"PEUGEOT Australia offers this information as a general guide to product speci
fications. All data is believed to be correct as at April 2018, however, as development is an ongoing process, changes may occur from time to time which will not necessarily reflected herein. Therefore, PEUGEOT Australia reserves the right to change specifications without notice. Accordingly, this information should not be regarded as an infallible guide to correct specifications, nor does it constitute an offer for sale of any particular vehicle. Whilst all care has been taken to provide you with information in regards to the general use of PEUGEOT
products, you should not rely solely on the information provided in this brochure.
Dealers are not agents of PEUGEOT Australia and have absolutely no authority to bind PEUGEOT Australia by an express or implied undertaking or representation. ........................................
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Follow Up By: franklKTM450 - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 07:24

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 07:24
I did send an enquiry to Peugeot Australia who referred it to a dealer in Geelong who couldn't answer the question because the brochure didnt contain the info. So, "you should not rely solely on the information provided in this brochure." - seems the dealers are going by the brochure and dont have any other technical info.

I would have thought ADR would require the downball be on the vehicle placard.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 11:36

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 11:36
Garrycol - Thanks for producing the fine print and alerting me to the purely European brochures and photos.
I'm not interested in buying a Pug, I was merely looking for the towbar info.

So it appears, that Philadelphia lawyers are the top dogs in Peugeot management.

You can be given any kind of BS information, as regards Pug specs and vital information - and it all comes with huge disclaimer that what you're looking at, or being told, is nothing like what you'll eventually receive in the metal - and they accept no responsibility for anything.

Just makes one wonder how you'd go with a warranty claim against them.

The brochure disclaimer gives one a fair idea that you'd be on a hiding to nothing once they pulled out the lawyers to dispute your reasonable claim.

It's little wonder the ACCC has car manufacturers and dealers in their sights when it comes to fair, honest, and legal treatment of their clients.
The old "Wood ducks" term comes to to mind, when you read that fine print in the Pug brochure.
I think Frank has the right idea, a Hyundai is looking like a far better buy than a Pug.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:24

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:24
Frank - The original 1991 ADR 62/00 legislation for towbars, specified that the towbar information must be on the towbar itself, and the manufacturers makes and model listed on the vehicle compliance plate.
I have never seen any towbar information on any compliance plate - apart from heavy commercial vehicles, when there is usually a separate compliance plate.

There's a reasonably good article about towbars in the link below.

Trade RV's - towbars

ADR 62/00 has been updated to ADR 62/02, which is the current legislation - and the towbar marking requirements have now been modified to require adherence to the Australian Standard, AS 4177.2 – 2004 - 50mm Towballs.

I do not have a copy of AS 4177.2 - 2004, you have to purchase a copy of that Standard, at exorbitant cost.

However, the ADR 62/02 legislation also allows 50 mm towbar markings to be substantially relaxed, to only requiring the following markings ...

12.4 Marking

12.4.1. Up to 3.5 tonnes ‘ATM’

Both parts of a ‘Coupling’ specifically designed for use between LA, LB, LC, LD category and sub category LEM towing vehicles and trailers up to 750kg ‘ATM’, or specifically designed for use between towing vehicles and trailers up to 3.5 tonnes ‘ATM’, must be marked with the following information:

12.4.1.1. The ‘Coupling’ manufacturer’s name or trademark; and

12.4.1.2. the maximum allowable trailer ‘ATM’ and its units of measurement (kg for an ‘ATM’ up to 750 kg, and tonnes otherwise), at which the ‘Coupling’ is rated; and

12.4.1.3. the words “use with model (identified model)”.

It appears there is no longer a requirement for any towbar markings to be on compliance plates.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:44

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:44
Garrycol - I take issue with your statement that the "(that picture shows) the European goose neck tow bar - they are illegal in Australia. The Australian tow pack will be different."

Below is a link to the Towbars Australia page, where they show their towbar fitment for the superseded Peugeot 5008.

Note that it shows a European goose neck type towbar - and the information is that the towbar is "European designed and supplied (ER)", and "meets Australian Design Rules".

Towbars Australia - superseded Peugeot 5008 model towbar

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 15:39

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 15:39
Well there you go :-)
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Reply By: swampy - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 09:25

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 09:25
Hi
Sad very sad dealers and importers cannot give u important info .Many dealers treat people like morons yet they donot no themselves .
More interested in taking your money . No dealer gets my coin if that's the case.

If the vehicle has a towbar rating under 100kg I would give a wide birth to ,even for light work .
AnswerID: 618298

Follow Up By: franklKTM450 - Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 11:01

Sunday, Apr 15, 2018 at 11:01
Agree. It's concerning when someone is selling a product they dont fully understand. The dealer probably gives the salesperson the brochure and says go sell it. Makes me wonder whats the point of them. Perhaps no sales people = less markup.

The new Santa Fe is looking the goods. Need to wait for the release in July.
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