Dual cab question

Submitted: Sunday, May 06, 2018 at 20:24
ThreadID: 136659 Views:2210 Replies:8 FollowUps:21
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Just been on a outback qld road trip, & saw a lot of Isuzu dual cabs towing vans ? I was thinking I needed a cruiser wgn to be completely comfortable towing? I was only thinking of a 20 ft van , maybe it’s the price difference, ?
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Reply By: Paul E6 - Sunday, May 06, 2018 at 20:39

Sunday, May 06, 2018 at 20:39
A ute would have a greater towing capacity than a wagon, on paper.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Sunday, May 06, 2018 at 20:44

Sunday, May 06, 2018 at 20:44
Also the Dmax seems to return very good economy towing.
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Reply By: mountainman - Sunday, May 06, 2018 at 21:42

Sunday, May 06, 2018 at 21:42
Simple fact is you can buy 2 isuzus for maybe 3/4 the price of the 200series.
Simple maths dictate alot of purchases
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Reply By: 9900Eagle - Monday, May 07, 2018 at 04:34

Monday, May 07, 2018 at 04:34
A friend tows with a 2015 Isuzu dual cab and his weights are over the factory gcm. He has had a lovells suspension upgrade that legally lifts his gcm and gvm.

He has had no problems with it and it is on the road full time.
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Reply By: Ken - Monday, May 07, 2018 at 10:35

Monday, May 07, 2018 at 10:35
Unless you to to a large American dual cab the current range of small dual; cab utes do NOT have a greater towing capacity than a LC 200. On paper they are the same but when you have a decent load in them most can't tow 3.5 tonnes. A LC 200 without an upgraded suspension has troubles too as their load capacity is small and quickly eaten up by accessories, fuel and passengers.
My guess is it is primarily a price consideration for the popularity of dual cabs as tow vehicles.
Ken
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 08:48

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 08:48
You hit the nail on the head there. Wagons are heavier than utes. An LC100 is lighter than a LC200 and can carry more disposable load than the LC200 when towing the same van.

Utes are much more capable of carrying more loads but on the other hand don't travel with a ute towing a van with no load in the back of the tug. If you do so then the vans weight is much heavier in comparison to the tug than when towing with a LC200.

If you think you need a Cruiser for comfort then you are getting very soft. I have towed with utes more than wagons and find that the utes are not far behind the wagons. It's only be very fussy people who will be concerned by the difference. If you are that fussy then maybe you should be looking at a Mercedes, BMW or a Toureg.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 20:57

Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 20:57
If you think you need a Cruiser for comfort then you are getting very soft


Have you towed with a Cruiser ?
I like a cruiser for comfort, ease of towing because of the extra power, heavier weight which makes for a safer tow vehicle, and more safety features such as more airbags than most utes.

If you are doing lots of towing, who wouldn't want the most comfort they could afford ??

If you can't afford a cruiser, then you buy what you can afford, but you don't whinge about someone who has a better 4wd....for towing..
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Reply By: Athol W1 - Monday, May 07, 2018 at 11:04

Monday, May 07, 2018 at 11:04
Ray
I am one who had a LC200 towing a 3.03t 21ft van and could not get any where near to being legal weights, being about 450kg over the permissible weight of the LC.
I now have an Isuzu Dmax with an ARB OME GVM upgrade and, with the same gear being carried, am now compliant with all legal weight requirements.
I have also found that, apart from the traffic light derby's, the Isuzu is doing just as good a job of towing but with about a 25% fuel saving. The savings go a lot further than fuel with such things a tyres being around 40% savings per set at approximately the same service life, also in Queensland there is a substantial difference in Rego costs, there is around half of the depreciation cost and the list goes on.
After having owned both vehicles I will be staying with the Isuzu, and I do agree that the LC is a very nice and comfortable vehicle.
Regards
Athol

Edit. At any given climb I found that the LC and the Dmax would most likely be in the same gear when towing, the Dmax will select 6th gear at a little over 60kph whereas the LC would not select 6th until over 100kpg (Not towing in each case, all towing restricted to 5th in the LC, and D in the Dmax unless engine braking required)
AnswerID: 618722

Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 06:50

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 06:50
I have a 200 series and love the power while towing.To say a dual cab of any sort goes close is just bias. Fuel economy is correct, but the extra 2 l/hk saving will come at a decreased life of the engine.....all things being equal..

What logical reason is there to say a dual cab is a better tow vehicle than a wagon type 4wd ?
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Follow Up By: Gbc.. - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 07:17

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 07:17
I think what he is saying and I’d agree is that the baseline requirement to tow 3 tonne has never changed. What has changed is the number of cars that now do it easily. You might love the v8 but there is certainly no need to have it. The big engined low payload and comparatively inefficient cruiser is probably losing relevance if anything. They used to duke it out with patrols at the top of the tow capacity but neither has had any capacity upgrade to speak of while the commercials have now joined them. At 3 t tow a dmax can still have pretty much 1t payload as well - before any gvm upgrade. That’s enough for a lot of people and it shows on the road. Grey nomads are snapping them up.
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Follow Up By: Athol W1 - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 07:40

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 07:40
Gronk

I am stating my observations in relation to the ability of each vehicle to 'do the job', I am referring to documentation in relation to anything to do with costs of running.

I owned a 60th Anniversary 200TTD for some 5 years and covered over 170k in that time and over 85k of that was towing covering most of Australia's main roads/highways and some not so major as well, that vehicle was changed for a 2015 Dmax which also towed the same van around Australia covering over 70k with over 36k of that towing before an upgrade to the current 2017 vehicle with the GVM upgrade which has so far covered 5.5k with 3k towing. The indications are that this current vehicle is out performing the previous 2 when towing. When it comes to the hills as an example the climb South out of Sofala was some 4km in 1st gear in the LC but the current Dmax auto changed up to 2nd after the first pinch.

I am not saying that the LC is not a great vehicle, but most of us retirees are also looking at the economies of operation, including depreciation, and as such there are some very good alternatives.

Regards
Athol
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Follow Up By: David I1 - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 09:32

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 09:32
Athol, in a strict accounting sense depreciation is a "sunk cost" you have already spent the money and you really dont get it back until you trade in many years diown the track. The purchase of a vehicle is mostly on first impression and ability to do the job. Obviously running costs are a consideration, but a 1 or 2 ltrs per 100 k more is not a lot if you have a comfortable car and you like what you drive. I would never own a dual cab or a single cab for that matter. I dont need a tray out the back and i think they are agricultural in comfort when compared to the car I drive. But that is my opinion and what I have suits me for what i want, and most importantly what I can afford to purchase and run
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Follow Up By: Athol W1 - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 10:25

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 10:25
David

I do agree that the depreciation is a 'sunk cost' and it is not realised until you dispose of the vehicle, but working on a 50% depreciation over 5 years (and this would be a conservative loss) then there is a substantial difference between 50% of $100k and 50% of $45k, and at 5 years (working on the above assumption) then I can afford to give the Dmax away and I would still be in front, and this does not include the additional interest that would be payable if the vehicle was financed, or the interest lost through the additional monies not being invested.

As for your assumption about the fuel savings I can tell you that the LC200 towing the current Jayco Silverline caravan from Darwin to the Gold Coast via Broome and the West Coast AVERAGED 22 l/100km in 2015 and the Isuzu Dmax doing the same trip towing the same van in 2017 AVERAGED 17 l/100km, and that is a substantial $ saving.

The usual difference between the 2 vehicles when not towing 12 to 14 l/100km for the LC and 9.5 to 11 l/100km for the Dmax, and you may say this is not a major consideration.

Regards
Athol

Regards
Athol
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 22:51

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 22:51
It was mentioned by GBC that a lot more vehicles can tow 3T easily now.

I personally don't know of any that can tow 3T easily. Apart from the new high output Amarok, I don't know if any ute ( apart from the yank ones ) will tow 3T easily. The old preferred ruling of a van not weighing ,more than the tow vehicle has certainly bitten the dust, especially since even the car makers coming up with unrealistic tow limits to "compete" with their opposition.

If you are towing a van up that big hill out of Sofala with a 200 series diesel and you can't get out of 1st, then the van is way too big for it. And to imply that a Dmax did it more easily is rubbish.
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Follow Up By: Gbc.. - Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 07:02

Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 07:02
Perhaps you’d better reread the thread. You are trying to tell people who are already doing it that something can’t be done. I also tow 3+ regularly with a Ute that isn’t a v6 or a v8 and it also does it easily. It appears it's not just the cars which are struggling to remain relevant.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 22:34

Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 22:34
Your idea of easily is a personal opinion. I never said it can't be done, as there are plenty of people doing "it", but that doesn't mean they are doing it easy.
Even though you may choose not to, fuel usage one reason, if the tow vehicle can't stick to the speed limit, uphills included, then I wouldn't call that towing easily.
Everyone might like to push the limits, but 2.7T of ute towing 3T plus of van is not my idea of fun. Nor would I like to tow 3T with my 200 series either.
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Reply By: Jackolux - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 10:39

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 10:39
We have just returned from a trip of just over 11800k , towing a Tvan with a Space Cab Dmax , it is a very economical vehicle it returned 13.2lt x 100 for the whole trip , I always travel at 100kph plus a couple , trucks / roadtrains never catch and have to overtake me and I rarely have to overtake them , best of 11.3 when the Tvan was unhooked and a worst of 16.7 a lot of lowrange at Lorella Springs , not towing .
But we are looking to upgrade to a Wagon and yes I would have to rethink my load
the GXL LC200 only has a carry capacity of just over 600kg
We are also considering the Y62 V8 petrol Patrol , it has a lot more bang for your buck than a LC 200 and is less money , carrying capacity is +175 kg over the GXL
The Patrol Ti makes the GXL LC look like a poverty pack .
I can see why there is a lot of Dual Cabs towing it's the lower purchase price but also the extra carrying capacity.
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Follow Up By: mountainman - Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 04:14

Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 04:14
Dont be too worried on haggling for a bargain on the new patrol.
They are going dirt cheap and dealers are happy to get them off their books because they just arent selling.
Definitely use that and ring around to even get a better price...
Catch a bargain !
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Reply By: Kumunara (NT) - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 14:26

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 14:26
The best dual cab for towing and comfort is the V6 Amarok. 550 nm at 1400 revs and 580 nm under boost.
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AnswerID: 618741

Follow Up By: Gbc.. - Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 19:54

Tuesday, May 08, 2018 at 19:54
They are sending it to 190kw/580nm base in the update to knock off the Mercedes v6 diesel which was just released.
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Follow Up By: David I1 - Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 09:23

Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 09:23
Am I missing something here or not. Carrying capacity is when the vehicle is not towing. If towing to a large extent, carrying capacity is irrelivent as it comes down to GCM or GVM or whatever. You cannot load the vehicle up to its max carrying capacity, and then hook a 3.5T van on the back. When I tow, my vehicle is basically empty, except for my portable fridge, and a few loose ends. Why? because the caravan carries everything I need. Also we need to compare apples with apples. A Tvan is a light camper trailer and is nowhere near 3.5T so comparing fuel usage is really an unfair comparison when considering towing a brick like a caravan.
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Follow Up By: Gbc.. - Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 09:42

Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 09:42
The car in question (dmax) and most of the other bigger dual cabs will suffer no payload penalty when towing the aforementioned 3.0 t.
I.E. in very rough figures you can put 1t in the car and still tow 3.0 t. The 1t must include the ball weight of the van though.

They all drop off payload as you approach a 3.5t tow figure. If you hook up 3.5t to the dmax the payload drops to just over 500 k.g. The others are similar (ranger/hilux/bt50 etc)

Toyota 70 series I believe retain full payload rating at 3.5 t tow, and landrovers have generally been the same or similar but I haven't looked at how the new ones get rated.

You need to allow for ball weight as payload but other than that you are covered.
You need to specifically check your vehicle and your van to work out your individual numbers.
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Follow Up By: Member - silkwood - Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 18:21

Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 18:21
Is the "auto" in the V6 Amarok a dual clutch transmission? If so, how does it go reversing with a load on? Do you need to get any mods? Volkswagen DSGs are not exactly known for their reliability or efficacy generally, particularly when towing in reverse.

Cheers,

Mark
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Follow Up By: Gbc.. - Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 19:14

Saturday, May 12, 2018 at 19:14
No dsg in the amarok. The first series had a habit of spitting torque converters but after that they aren’t too terrible. No low range is going to load them up in reverse though when towing off-road. They have converter lockup in every gear though so they don’t heat up like a normal box where you’d be looking for low range.
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Reply By: Deejay - Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 20:06

Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 20:06
Ray, I'm going to get nailed for saying this as I've said it on this forum before, and that is LC200s are not value for money and are greatly over-rated. As a former mechanic on a fleet of them (and 100 & 80 series), I can assure you they suffer just as many problems as all the other makes - particularly with their ECU. You could buy any other make of car and have enough money left over for a unit at the Gold Coast. Having worked also on a variety of dual cabs, that's what I would buy and pocket the money left over for accessories or fuel for a trip. Yes, LC200s are powerful but they are thirsty. Y62s pull like a 14 year old but we have a few in my club and they are even thirstier! Amroks are problematic. My nephew is currently engaged in a dispute with the VW dealer about major ongoing problems with his ute and my neighbour is the warranty guy for a multi dealership and says VW will strenuously argue all but the most obvious warranty claim. So to answer your question, buy a Japanese ute, spend some money on a suspension upgrade, save the money and have a good holiday.
P.S I don't own a Pajero but I've met several very happy owners! Maybe that's a possibility.
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Follow Up By: IvanTheTerrible - Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 21:38

Wednesday, May 09, 2018 at 21:38
A local mechanic has had trouble with timing chains on the 200 series
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 04:39

Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 04:39
Had a beer yesterday with a 200 series owner that had traded his turbo 100 series for.

He said he had problems with sensors and fault codes and he he wished he could have kept the 100. His comment was, it was just so reliable but was getting a little long in the tooth and small things kept showing up.
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Follow Up By: Gbc.. - Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 08:00

Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 08:00
$32k for a replacement motor from Toyota when they let go at 130kms too.
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Follow Up By: Gronk - Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 20:48

Thursday, May 10, 2018 at 20:48
$32k for a motor if they let go at 400,000 as well. Although that figure seems highly inflated.
How much for a replacement Ranger motor, when they let go at 100,000 ???

While everyone seems to like banging on about 200 series problems, I have one and know 5 others with ones ranging from 2008 to 2018 and have not heard of ONE single problem with any of them.....the oldest has done 200,000, then 160,000, 130,000, 60,000 and the new one 2,000.
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