Tyre problem

Submitted: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 12:09
ThreadID: 136745 Views:2411 Replies:18 FollowUps:21
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I've now had both rear tyres (Toyo Open Country LT265/65R17) on my Pajero undergo a separation of the outer skin right around the bead and am inclined to view this as a tyre fault. The tyres have done about 30,000km from memory, and are probably half or two thirds worn.

Both were still fully inflated and replaced as a precaution. I'd have thought they had always been operated with appropriate inflation so I'm a bit mystified as to what I might have done to them to cause such damage, such as I've never before encountered.

Grateful some advice from the experienced eyes here before I take the matter further with the dealer &/or manufacturer.

See attached pics.
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Reply By: Member - Penski - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 12:41

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 12:41
Looks like a tyre fault to me and as both are rears the flexing during acceleration is a possible contributor. What do you consider normal inflation for them? Have they had extended use at low pressure for sand or corrugations? You’re unlikely to have overloaded them with a 120 rating.
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Reply By: Member - shane r1 - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 13:02

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 13:02
I agree, that looks like a warrantable fault. When I was a tyre dealer , I would have definitely referred these tyres to Toyo. If your dealer won’t deal with the warranty, (some dealers don’t always go for warranty)speak to Toyo directly.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 13:40

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 13:40
The dealer is infringing Australian Consumer Law if he refuses to address warranty issues.

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Follow Up By: Member - shane r1 - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 16:33

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 16:33
I didn’t word that exactly how I wanted.
What I meant to point out is that a lot of customers wouldn’t know if a tyre has a problem that is warrantable. And dealers don’t necessarily just offer to try for a warranty claim.
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 14:13

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 14:13
Hi Paul

That seems very strange indeed and as the others have said, looks like a tyre fault. Did you get 4 at one time and have the same on the front?

What did the tyre store have to say?

We have the very same tyres, including the very same size and they are over 2 years old now, and I rotate them every 5k, and have stretched it to 10 k after a big trip away last year.

I am saying now that they are the best tyre that I have had on the Prado, far exceeding tyre wear compared to my previous Bridgestone LT697's

All the best and please keep us informed on further updates.



Cheers



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Reply By: Idler Chris - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 14:17

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 14:17
Hi Paul,

Check the inside of each tyre. They should look like new. If the surface is a bit powdery it indicates they have been run at low pressures.
If they look good on the inside I would say you have a warranty claim.
Cheers,
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Follow Up By: Member - pete g1 - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 15:14

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 15:14
IC..can you expand on the parameters you've described please ?
What causes the "powdery" indicators ..where does the this powder originate from ?..
Is it a break down of tyre chemicals ?
caused by low pressures ?

not critical comment, merely seeking explanations from a well travelled member.
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Follow Up By: Member - J&A&KK - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 20:12

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 20:12
Pete

As Chris states the inside of the tyre should look as new.

Any white powdery looking deposit is caused by excessive heat as a result of the rubber compounds “decompounding”. Whilst low tyre pressures and excessive side wall flexing may be the root of the problem it’s the resultant heat within the layers of the tyre that causes the structural damage. Outside tyre wall temperature and inside tyre air temperature may not necessarily be representative of the temperatures within the tyre layers. According to Bridgestone prolonged temperatures of 80C or more, anywhere within a tyre layer, will cause permanent damage. The damage may be minor at the first occurrence but the damage will continue to grow due to the fact that the physical and chemical properties of that particular layer/location have been permanently altered. For the worse.

Trust this is of use.

I am sure Toyo will be most interested in your situation. It looks unusual damage for a quality tyre and I am sure Toyo will wish to understand the cause.

All the best John
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Follow Up By: Idler Chris - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 21:06

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 21:06
Hi Paul and John,

Thanks John you have answered pete g1 perfectly.

I have tyre monitors with the sending units strapped inside the tyre to the rim. Tyre monitors in this position give very accurate tyre temperatures. If I ever see the temperature above 70 degrees I will either put more air in the tyres, drive slower, or stop and have a cup a tea. Or all three. As John said heat is a killer of tyres.

Rubber is porous. Tubeless tyres have a coating on the inside to seal the rubber and so prevent air loss. I am not 100% sure this is true, but I believe that it is this coating that breaks down and becomes a whitish powder with the flexing of being under inflated and driven too fast causing excessive heat. As an aside, this coating is a bit abrasive and is the reason for not putting a tube in a tubeless tyre as it won't last that long due to the abrasion.

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Follow Up By: Member - J&A&KK - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 23:06

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 23:06
Chris

I agree that a TPMS with internal sensors will give a more accurate tyre interior air temperature than external sensors.

However what I learned in my discussions with Bridgestone is that temperatures within the tyre layers can be, at times, much higher than the internal air temperature. It’s these inter layer high temps (prolonged > 80C) that cause the problems. One example they gave me was a tyre rubbing on a metal mud flap bracket ( laboratory experiment).The heat generated in a narrow band of the tyre caused layer separation and eventual catastrophic failure. However the international TPMS sensor temperature never exceeded 70C.

The air temperature represents an approximate average of the case temperatures. That said the temperatures you see on internal TPMS sensors are very helpful in managing tyre pressures in normal operating conditions.

Trust this is useful.

Cheers John
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Reply By: Member - Paul B (WA) - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 14:49

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 14:49
Thanks for the replies guys. They've usually had between 35 & 45 psi in them at road speeds, depending on the load and whether towing our 1400 kg camper. I generally tow in the constant 4WD setting to spread the tyre wear a bit more.

On rough tracks, that tends to be reduced to 25 or 30 psi if travelling slowly (ie less than 50 km/hr) and from time to time they've been down to 10 psi in soft sand, but I do have a really good compressor that bumps them back up fast.

I don't have the tyres to check the insides of them but I'll ask the dealer about that.

It was on the inside of both tyres (ie under the vehicle where it wasn't readily apparent) that the separation occurred, so I wondered whether a heavy load over the independent suspension caused them to splay out at the bottom a bit more. The car was certainly very well loaded for the trip to Ooldea (2500+ km) with 4 adults and gear, but I never noticed the tyres splaying out greatly.

Like Stephen L, I had hitherto liked these tyres, which seemed to perform very well in a wide range of conditions.
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 15:15

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 15:15
Good luck on the replacement.

I do have to say that I always had problems with my Pajero ( NM ) with independent rear suspension when towing ( 160kg downball weight )

It always wore out the inside of the rear tyres. There is a lot more pressure on the inside of the tyres than the outside. That was my immediate thought when I saw the tyres and the fact that you have a Pajero.
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Reply By: Member - pete g1 - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 15:02

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 15:02
strange failure around rim beading ?

being self reflective , most times I've experienced tyre issues of that magnitude I've deducted it's incorrect tyre pressures......however a mine field of variables compound to drain the brain's rational assessment.

pressure v's temperature v's cruising speed v's axle weights v's wind loads v's pavement type (dirt/bitumen/corrugations)..better than good vegie soup !!!

But, the other responses noted running tyre pressures...
That's seems to be the background issue whenever we have these discussions.

I'd really appreciate the final resolution explanation, be it from the dealer or Toyo, as it only helps us ALL to understand this eternal issue of tyre failure.

happy travels
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Tuesday, May 29, 2018 at 21:58

Tuesday, May 29, 2018 at 21:58
"I'd really appreciate the final resolution explanation, be it from the dealer or Toyo, as it only helps us ALL to understand this eternal issue of tyre failure."

I'm with you Pete. Very keen to see what Toyo's response is. Would be handy to know the dealer also because on face value he's not someone I want to be buying tyres from.

We've had a lot of good reports on the Open Country from forumites so I've put it on my shortlist for future tyres BUT I'd like to be confident that they stand behind their product.
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Reply By: Member - Penski - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 15:18

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 15:18
Even stranger that they were both on the inside. You didn’t mention the Pajero model but I have an NW with OME suspension and Polyairs and haven’t seen this sort of issue. To me the pre NT or maybe NS looked to splay out more than the later models. You run the same pressure range as I do and similar loads so it will be interesting to hear the outcome.
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Follow Up By: Member - Paul B (WA) - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 16:18

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 16:18
It's an NS 2007 but with an OME suspension.
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Reply By: 9900Eagle - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 16:48

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 16:48
Won't go into the speculation on why this happened, but I do know Toyo and their reps don't back away from warranty claims when they are genuine. I run very similar pressures to you and mine are fine, they probably have about 10,000 K left in them before I will replace, vehicle 90% of the time weighs 3T and tows 2.5t.

Have given them some serious crap on steep rocky tracks, and not one bit of chipping or damage.

When I looked at your pics old rag tyres jumped into my brain.

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Reply By: splits - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 19:36

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 19:36
You may find the pressures you have been using have had something to do with this, particularly when you have had them down to 10 psi. Have a look at the Wrangler at 15 psi at the bottom of this page.WRANGLER Imagine what that would be doing to the sidewalls in straight line let alone when cornering . I know some manufacturers recommend reducing pressures in off road conditions but not all of them do.

The MRF cross ply beside it is the type Beadells use for their cross country desert trips. They reduce the pressures but not that low.

Just out of interest, this car was driven seven days a week on sand for two years. I drove it and another identical one for three months during that period. Those tyres had plenty of pressure in them and near smooth tread but they took us everywhere on that beach including up on the big sand dunes.

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Follow Up By: Member - Paul B (WA) - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 20:44

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 20:44
When they were down to 10 psi (or even lower, it was to get out of very soft sand on a beach and they would have been pumped up again pretty much straight away.

If a 4wd tyre can't handle that, they shouldn't be on the market, so I really doubt that is an issue. Different matter if they've been driven at speed on near flat tyres - these haven't.
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Follow Up By: splits - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 22:18

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 22:18
When they were down to 10 psi (or even lower, it was to get out of very soft sand on a beach and they would have been pumped up again pretty much straight away.
-----------------------------------------------------

That was the only thing I could think of. They may be 4wd tyres but they are not sand tyres and 10 psi or lower is extremely low. I doubt if Toyo designed them to go that low. The pressures in the sand tyres on the RAAF car in the photo that I posted were more like street pressures and were occasionally used on the street for short periods without changing them but they still worked in soft sand. .

With pressures that low, the tread will remain in contact with the sand but the wheel may be wallowing from side to side and stretching the sidewalls. It may even be possible to "bottom out" the tyre so the rim is virtually sitting on the inside surface of the tread area and crushing the torn part of the sidewall.
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 07:30

Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 07:30
Hi splits

You will find that thousands of responsible Australian four wheel drivers will have lowered their tyres that low when in soft dune country, weather it is beach or desert driving.

I have done it a good number of times, and never suffered that problem.

If it was a cause, them there should have been thousands of reported cases.


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Follow Up By: splits - Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 11:05

Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 11:05
Stephen

It is an unusual problem and even after working in the motor industry for sixteen years and looking at net forums since 1998, I have never seen anything like it.

Tyre separation problems usually involve sidewalls and tread areas but this one is right on the edge of the rim. It is as though the rim has cut into it . One possibility that I have not thought of until now is is the rim spinning in the tyre due to the low pressures. It may not cause sufficient damage to cause this the first time it happens but repeated attempts to get out of bogs in sand could eventually do it.
Wheels spinning in the tyre is common enough with low pressures and is the reason why bead locks are available.

A spinning wheel will rip the valve of a tube in a tyre but not in a tubeless. It may happen to many 4wds but the driver would most likely not be aware of it when driving in a straight line. The first sign could be rolling the tyre off the rim when turning. I have seen that happen once and have heard about it many times.
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Reply By: Tourist - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 19:48

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 19:48
I had almost identical problem with rear tyres (Toyo Open Country 265/70R 16) on a 79series Landcruiser Ute (see attached photo). Damage was on inside of wheel so not immediately obvious when inspecting tyre condition. Fortunately it was picked up at service before any disaster. Four tyres were fitted as a set but only rears damaged at around 25K. I was travelling with a slide-on camper. Pressures were varied depending on gravel/corrigations/sand/bitumen. I have TPMS so had info on temp as well as pressure. Temp was never above 60C and majority was 45C to 50C.
I talked to a Toyo rep at Farmfest and he would only say it was “low pressure running”. I had individual wheel load data that I sent to this rep and he provided advice from his “tech department “ on suitable pressures and that matched what I had been running. I took it up with my dealer who I have worked with for several years in managing a fleet of vehicles and he trusted my word on pressures/conditions etc. He took it up with Toyo and was able to get the tyres replaced on a two for one basis, without any admission of liability from Toyo or confirmation of cause.
The LC had std rear axle with the addition of Polyair airbags, which seems to negate suspension splay as being a cause.
If I still had the tyres I would love to compare manufacture/batch dates to see if there was any correlation I.e. a bad batch. My dealer had fitted many of these tyres to vehicles in our fleet and we had not had any similar problems - hence why I bought them for my vehicle.
So I have no solution to offer but you may find this experience interesting, Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Paul B (WA) - Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 20:45

Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 20:45
Thanks very much, very interesting. VERY interesting
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Reply By: Member - David M (SA) - Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 14:17

Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 14:17
Thanks for what turns out to be a timely post Paul. I'm up for a new set and was considering Toyo's. Will now stick to my original past choice's of 697's.
Cheers,Dave.
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 20:01

Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 20:01
Hi Dave

It has not put me off, as my Toyo's are just fine and superior to my previous 697's and have travelled more than 90% of true outback roads with no issues at all so far.

In that distance, I would have had to replace my Bridgestone's, as I never let them drop below 50% tread wear and very soon we are off again, with another great trip that will put at least another 12k on the tyres, and providing I have no issues, will be nearly twice the distance from any of my previous 694 and 697's



Cheers



Stephen




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Reply By: Munji - Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 14:27

Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 14:27
There seems to be some common issues here. Tyres on the rear and on the inside. Why not other tyres and on either side. Further, I would not eliminate the air bags as a contributor. Seen gravel roads destroyed by road trains running air bags.
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 17:42

Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 17:42
Munji.

I agree with your common issues observation.

But "Seen gravel roads destroyed by road trains running air bags."

How is that?

Just curious, that's all.
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Reply By: JR - Thursday, May 24, 2018 at 18:50

Thursday, May 24, 2018 at 18:50
Am I correct saying both examples delaminated on the raised white lettering side?
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Follow Up By: Member - Paul B (WA) - Friday, May 25, 2018 at 09:02

Friday, May 25, 2018 at 09:02
Yeah probably, although I never took that much notice. Both tyres delaminated on the inside of the tyre, being the side under the car facing the othe tyre
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Reply By: Member - Paul B (WA) - Friday, May 25, 2018 at 09:10

Friday, May 25, 2018 at 09:10
Not sure I’m going to get any joy here. When I followed the dealer up the other day, he had not, contrary to my express request, made any representations to Toyo and had dumped the tyres at the tyre disposal facility at the local tip. I had to email him the photos in my initial post with a demand he take it up with Toyo.

Nor, it seems had he even ordered me the replacement tyre to complete the set.

I suspect I’ve made my last purchase from them. So much for getting good service where the man who owns the store runs the store!
Paul B Kalgoorlie

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Follow Up By: Shaker - Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 18:21

Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 18:21
I would assume that you still owned the tyres & had merely taken them to the dealer for assessment. In which case he had no right to dispose of your goods & in this case any evidence should you have wished to take the matter further.
I would suggest that as the tyres were in his care, he owes you a pair of tyres!
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Reply By: KevinE - Friday, May 25, 2018 at 21:31

Friday, May 25, 2018 at 21:31
Sorry mate, but that stands out like the dog's whatsits as the rim damaging the tyre from being run at low pressures.

The reason that it's only damaged the inside of the tyre is that your Pajero has independent suspension.

The independent suspension compounds the problem by many fold.

Every time you add weight to the rear wheels, the inside edge of the rim is closer to the ground & the the outside edge actually lifts up off the ground.

Add a fridge to the back of the car, add some luggage, add a caravan/camper trailer on the tow ball & there you go.

What may seem like an acceptable tyre pressure with a live axle, is way too low for a car with independent suspension.

I've never owned any Toyo tyres & likely never will, but I don't believe that the tyres are faulty, or caused your issues.
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Follow Up By: Member - Penski - Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 19:56

Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 19:56
Kevin I wonder if 10psi is just too low for a tyre of that profile. I haven’t had any issues on the Pajero but as I mentioned earlier the NS onwards doesn’t seem to have the camber change of earlier IRS Pajeros. I can see that the big profiles on small 15” rims favoured by serious off-roaders could go low due to their high volume but in this case with a 65 (or was it 70?) profile on a 17” rim maybe it just doesn’t leave enough air to support the weight. My experience is limited to about 18psi on that profile. Just a thought but 10psi does seem low.
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Follow Up By: KevinE - Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 20:34

Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 20:34
Hi Penski, I agree 100% with your comments :)
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Reply By: Member - Andrew - Friday, May 25, 2018 at 21:41

Friday, May 25, 2018 at 21:41
Really a bit left field here but I have seen that damage before. It was caused by the tyre having the wrong bead profile that as a result did not fit the rim profile correctly. Because the tyre was flexing at the wrong angle it damaged the internal structure of the sidewall at the stress point creating the sort of damage that you appear to have. Running low pressures or high loading would exacerbate the issue. When you think about the flexing of an independant rear end you could imagine that the inner bead area is the most highly loaded part of the tyre.
I realise that it is not logical that this is your actual cause but perhaps the tyre design is meant to handle different rim profiles and is not a problem on live axles or full road pressures.
Any way its just another thought to add to the discussion.
I do recall that the Ford explorer rear tyre failure issue was supposedly related to excessive tyre lateral movement caused by the effects of indipendent rearsuspension and low tyre pressures overworking the tyres.

Interested to know what the experts finally decide.

Regards
A
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 17:32

Saturday, May 26, 2018 at 17:32
Andrew has nailed it, AFAIC. Here's the relevant info relating to bead/rim profiles.

Wheel-rim profile variations

Cheers, Ron.
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Reply By: Navneet G - Monday, Jun 18, 2018 at 13:28

Monday, Jun 18, 2018 at 13:28
Hi Paul

I hope you are doing well.

Sorry about late reply, but I just thought to check how you going with your research in this matter, Please call 1300 699 699 Ozzy Tyres (https://www.ozzytyres.com.au) , to get advice direct from the expert.
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Reply By: Member - KenD - Tuesday, Jun 19, 2018 at 23:59

Tuesday, Jun 19, 2018 at 23:59
Hi Paul, I see that our faithful old Eagle is on the market again. I hope it goes to a good home as it did with you. You will appreciate the QSB of your new FFC as things could be tight in the Eagle. I like the FFC with little need to worry about the ground.
We are heading to WA again in a few days via Alice, Kintore, Sandy Blight, Surveyor Generals Corner, Warburton, Connie Sue to Cocklebiddy then home for blues at Echuca. Will be travelling with 3 other vehicles though ours has the only trailer.
I have just put 4 new Toyo AT2s 245 x 75 on the Disco. I found your post a few days later so hope mine don't go the same way!
Good travels.
Regards
Ken D

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