Yeah, I shouldve known better...

Submitted: Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 14:17
ThreadID: 13691 Views:1959 Replies:3 FollowUps:9
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Hi all, just reading Erics post re the dud cars doing the rounds and thought I would tell you all about my latest hassle with a Used Car Dealer impersonating a human being... About 5 months ago I decided to sell my 2000 model Mitsubishi Challenger, car had just clicked on 100,000 ks. Was in fantastic condition, ARB bar, IPF spots, OME suspension, basically all the fruit from ARB... I advertised it at a fair price (26k) and didnt get 1 bite.. So I decided that I really needed to get rid of it seeing as I had already bought another vehicle. So I went to a dealer (whom at this stage will remained un-named) that was recommended to me by friends who had consigned their vehicle with (they didnt have a hassle, car was sold and paid for within 21 days) and signed the relevant paperwork for an agreed price of 24k and left the car with them...

Alarm bells started ringing about 3 days later when I saw my Challenger being driven by a really fat old guy that looked alot like the dealer... So after 2 weeks I ring up to see whether my car had sold yet... they told me that a deposit had been taken and that they were just waiting for the finance to come through.

I ring a week after that and they said 'congrats your car has sold, you will be paid within a fortnight'... At this point I will tell you all that I had a lease on the car and the finance company was owed 19k of the money... I called up exactly ten days later and was told that I would be 'paid by the end of the week', sure enough at the end of the week they gave me a cheque for just over 4k (of which the balance of 19k was to be paid by the car yard direct to my finance company), that cheque promptly bounced. I got angry and went back to them and got another cheque, guess what? Bounced again...

The third time I basically threatened a little physical violence and was 'granted' $4300 in cash... That was 4 weeks ago, now they still owe my finance company the outstanding amount and just informed me that the Dept of Fair Trading has shut them down due to insolvent (sp) trading...

I have been told that I will be covered via the DFT compensation fund for the outstanding amount on my car, but could wait up to 3 months for the money to come through, in the mean-time I have to pay the interest on the stopped finance payment.

I am sure there are reputable guys out there doing consignments, but pleaes guys and girls, beware the Used Car Dealer, they can be real sh$t bags...

Cheers
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Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 15:08

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 15:08
Hi Robb
I must have missed something here, The dealer or anyone else can't on sell the vehicle without ensuring title.
The only way to do this is to pay out the finance company.(They own it you rent it "Lease it")
If your car has been onsold by the dealer then the new owner does not own it the finance company still does and can take it anytime from the new owner.

In Victoria all vehicles under finance are registered on the vehicle securities register and so any prospective purchaser can check the title has been assured.

The way I would understand this is that the Dealer has in fact sold a car they don't own.
Beside this being fraud I believe it would also constitute theft.

By the way Fair Trading is not responsible for insolvencies sounds like more Bull$hit to me, I would go and see the bloke personally.
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Follow Up By: Member - Robb (NSW) - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 15:14

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 15:14
Hey John, I am not sure on the ins and outs of this, but from what I understand, when a registered MTA dealer sells a vehicle, they are given a certain amount of grace time on that vehicle to honour the title.... The reason (allegedly) that they pay their insurance attached to their dealers licence is to cover themselves for this type (among others) of thing... Maybe a dealer out there can help with some advice... BTW I have spoken with the DFT and they have the case at hand...

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 15:33

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 15:33
Robb I have traded many company vehicles in to dealers on a 3 years rollover basis.
I obtain the payout figure from the finance company and it is good to a certain date.
I get the dealer to reconfirm the figure and date direct with the finance company.
They give me a cheque for the difference between the payout and the agreed tradein/purchase price.
In every instance the dealer has confirmed to me that they HAVE to pay out the finance company to ensure title BEFORE they can resell the car.
I alway have the payout details including date payout figure is current to on the paper work.

I must say that I have never consigned a vehicle in the fashion that you did and it seems that the NSW car market system perhaps lacks the control that we have in Victoria.

At the end of the day, sorry to say, it's your lease contract and it is a problem for you big time if the finance company want you to pay up as security is held in most instances on the vehicle itself and you must have possesion to ensure that security.
Good Luck I don't envy your situation, but I would take restitution out on the big fat fella (Ba$tard) with a cricket bat if it was me.

I genuinly hope it turns out OK for you.
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Follow Up By: Leroy - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 16:14

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 16:14
The bloke that has bought the car from the used car salesman has the real prob as the car can be repoed from him as it used as security for the finance!!

Leroy
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Reply By: Member Eric - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 18:52

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 18:52
Ok , I dont know about the laws in NSW , but in Victoria , it is ilegal to consighn a vehicle . Unless it i to a auction house . As a dealer , you may only sell a vehicle that belongs to you and is placed in your police book and a invoice or transfer notice can be produced . Now the vehicle belongs to neither person , ( as John said ) it belongs to the finance company .

Now this is were it stinks . A finance company will not finance a vehicle that already has a lean ( finance ) . Unless they agree to pay the finance direct to the original finance institution . You have the right to ask your finance company to reposes the vehicle and to have it re sold . Now I dont know if there is another lean on the car , or it was just time buying from the dealer about the car been approved on finance .

If the new purchaser bought the car on a personal loan . Then you have the upper hand . Contact the new owner and find out if he paid cash / personal loan / or HP
If he got HP . Then he can question why they didnt do a title search on the vehicle before they aproved finance .

You should jump on it now . If the vihicle is not paid in full & money wasnt exchanged , then you have the right to report the vehicle stolen .

JJUMP ON IT NOW . Do not let this take its own course , it will only get messier
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Follow Up By: Member - Robb (NSW) - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 19:08

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 19:08
Thanks Eric, from reading a few of your posts in the past I know that you are in the loop... The laws in NSW may differ slightly though...

The story that I have been told from the Office of Fair Trading and the Dealership is that when a person buys a vehicle from a Registered Motor Traders Association Dealer that guarantees them title to the vehicle in question.

The next course of action for the people who are in a loss situation (i.e myself and Esanda Finance) is to the Dealer, the Dealer in their role as a licenced dealer (by the way, the Office of Fair Trading told me that THEY actually own all of the licences and grant them to people) are liable for this loss. When the dealer cannot pay the outsanding debt, you then make a complaint to the Dept of Fair Trading who investigates. The Dept of Fair Trading then determines whether the dealer can keep trading. If they deem that the debt cant be paid, the DFT then relieves the dealer of their licence and closes their business.

Any debt that the Dealer has incurred directly related to supply of motor vehicles is then cleaned up by the DFT by way oftheir insurance fund especially set up for shonks that go out of business. The only exception to this is if the vehicle in question is deemed a commercial vehicle or luxury vehicle. This person is then sued for the outstanding moneys by the DFT.... Thats all what was told to me by the investigator at the Dept of Fair Trading today... Not a nice situation either way...
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Follow Up By: Member Eric - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 19:53

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 19:53
I would also contact the finance company and have a chat with them . This will not be the first time this has happened to them, they will be in the know on what laws you have on your side . You are safe in the fact that the finace company still owns the vehicle and there title overides everything . They "do" have the right to re-po the vehicle
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Follow Up By: Member - Robb (NSW) - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 20:37

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 20:37
Yeah mate, spoke to Esanda this arvo at length... They are cool, they said that this obviously happens more than you would think... You are right about them still owning the vehicle... This is why the Dept of Fair Trading was set up to protect consumers... In the first instance the people that bought the vehicle from the dealer, and in the second instance the Creditors (Myself/Esanda)... I am going to go to the RTA tomorrow morn with all of my paperwork and ask for the details of the new owner, if I dont get any joy there I will go to the cops. I dont want to leave any stone unturned... Basically the idea of paying for a car that I no longer have in my posession is not appealing.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member Eric - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 20:51

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 20:51
Dont waist your time at RTA , they cannot give you the info even if they wanted to . They can only confurm a address if you supply the details .

Go straight to the police , they will contact the new owner and have him contact you . You can ask the officer in charge to try and contact him whilst you are there .

Explain to the officer that you have been dudded by the car yard , do not offer to much info because they will tell you that you have it under control and ask you to go away and let it take its course .

Remember that you are assuming alot here .
You asume that the car yard HAS sold the car
You assume they have finance on the car

For all you know . They are using the car to drive around themselves
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Follow Up By: Member - Robb (NSW) - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 21:10

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 21:10
Ok mate, thanks for the advice... I am pretty sure they have sold it, I have made surprise visits to the car yard and never seen the car... I will go to the cops and tell them the bare facts... I recieved a letter from the RTA 3 days ago saying that the registration on the car has been cancelled due to the plates being handed in... I assume that this means they have sold the car interstate??...
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Reply By: Member Eric - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 23:03

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 23:03
it could have been sold interstate , or they could have re registered the car ,so it dosnt come up on VSR ( vehicle security registar ) .

My question is this . Who gets a car from interstate under finance ? how would they do the paper work ?

To get finance , the finance company will only issue money if the vehicle is currently registered in the state that the purchaser lives in .

Now this is a long shot . Is your car Blue with a gold Winch bar?
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Follow Up By: Member - Robb (NSW) - Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 23:18

Friday, Jun 11, 2004 at 23:18
No mate, its green and champagne with an ARB non winch bar... 31in BFG MT....
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