E10 fuel

Submitted: Saturday, Nov 03, 2018 at 16:18
ThreadID: 137424 Views:1387 Replies:8 FollowUps:20
Gday
Just a post for Saturday night . What are your opinions for on the use of E10 iin my darlings car. Nissan Maxima. Just wondering about the long term use,

Muzbry
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Reply By: garrycol - Saturday, Nov 03, 2018 at 16:33

Saturday, Nov 03, 2018 at 16:33
No real issues for post 87 cars designed to take it and are used regularly but older cars can have trouble with rubber components and even modern cars not used much can get a bit of water in their systems.

You buy BP regular unleaded and you are basically getting E10 anyway at a regular unleaded price anyway - why I dont but BP fuels.
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 07:56

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 07:56
garrycol, what makes you say BP Regular unleaded (91 RON) is the same as E10 (up to 94RON)? E10 contains 10% Ethanol (hence the name), Regular unleaded does not. The problem with E10, particularly in locations where not a lot is sold, is that the Ethanol can settle out, so you may not be putting a 10% mix into your car, it may be 0%, or it may be much higher than 10%. In Qld for example, the state Gov. mandated that at least 4% of all petrol sales in Qld must be "Biofuels", therefore more E10 is sold in Qld than in Vic.

Below is a copy & paste of an article from carsguide.com The statement regarding E10 having mostly replaced ULP is misleading, as it is not true for all states. E10 is not as readily available in W.A. N.T. & Tas, also not as readily available in regional Vic.

E10 vs Unleaded
What is E10? The E in E10 stands for ethanol, a form of alcohol added to fuel to make them more environmentally friendly to produce and use. E10 fuel has largely replaced the old basic fuel we knew as 'Unleaded' and which carried an octane rating of 91RON.

The key difference between E10 and unleaded is E10 is made up of 90 per cent unleaded with a blend of 10 percent ethanol content.

The ethanol helps to lift its octane rating to 94RON, but that doesn’t translate into higher performance or improved mileage as the alcohol content actually increases fuel consumption due to the fuel’s energy density (or how much power you get from each litre of fuel burned).

The battle of E10 vs 91 fuels is largely over as E10 has mostly replaced the more expensive 91 unleaded.

When it comes to choosing in the ethanol vs petrol debate it's important to read the owner’s manual of your car, or the sticker behind the fuel door, to see what the manufacturer recommends as a minimum grade of fuel safe to use in your car.

If you’re unsure if your car can run on ethanol fuels check on the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries website.

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Follow Up By: garrycol - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 09:26

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 09:26
Have you tried to buy BP regular unleaded lately - not available at any of my BP stations - only their Regular Unleaded 91 with up too 10% renewable ethanol - others call it E10.
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 11:40

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 11:40
Where are you located?
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 11:52

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 11:52
NSW/ACT

See Mikeee5 Comment below noting similar:

"The comment about BP 91 is interesting. At a BP servo I saw a small sign which stated that the 91 that they sell may contain up to 10% ethanol, even though it is not coming from the E10 pump. Be careful."
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 10:56

Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 10:56
I have to say, I have never seen such a sign, and I use BP on a fairly regular basis, however, I use Diesel, so I might have missed it. This sign may also be referring to E10, as they also supply 91 RON Regular Unleaded. E10 RON is legislated at 91 RON, but can be as high as 94RON.

Refer to this link:
https://www.bp.com/en_au/australia/products-services/fuels/regular-fuels

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Follow Up By: garrycol - Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 11:48

Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 11:48
Understand but as you can see from a few of the responses good old normal unleaded is missing from BP garages - certainly in NSW.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 11:54

Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 11:54
I believe they have regular unleaded and unleaded 91 which contains up to 10% ethanol.

I guess some bp servos will have both and others will just have the unleaded 91.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 14:27

Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 14:27
Here is a pic of the petrol bowsers at my local BP



You can see their Unleaded is really E10 - there is no dedicated E10 pump and no dedicated Unleaded 91 pump - just this bastardised Unleaded 91 pump that has Ethanol added.

To be fair to BP their price for this was 159.9 and the only other garage in the area that carried E10 was also 159.9 and at that garage normal Unleaded 91 was 161.9 which was a similar price to normal Unleaded 91 in other garages.

BP is up front in telling people that their fuel has ethanol in it but just not calling it E10 - but they do not sell normal Unleaded 91. So if you dont want E10 to have to buy the more expensive 95 Unleaded or their 98 Unleaded.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Tuesday, Nov 06, 2018 at 05:51

Tuesday, Nov 06, 2018 at 05:51
Mate, don't think they ever sold branded unleaded 91without ethanol. It has always had it added.

The straight branded on the pump as Regular Unleaded has no ethanol unless they have now stopped supplying it and forced the change to Unleaded 91
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Tuesday, Nov 06, 2018 at 06:53

Tuesday, Nov 06, 2018 at 06:53
Garrycol, still some in Vic selling straight unleaded.

9900Eagle, where did you get that info from? Up until the biofuels push a few years ago, Ethanol was never added to petrol for “normal” consumption, perhaps for some racing fuels, but not for general use. Up until the early 2000’s, TEL (Tetra Ethyl Lead) was added to all petrol to boost octane, but this is not Ethanol.

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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Tuesday, Nov 06, 2018 at 07:29

Tuesday, Nov 06, 2018 at 07:29
Macca think we may have wording problem. What I was saying is a BP pump marked as "Regular Unleaded" had no ethanol in it but bp then introduced pumps marked "Unleaded 91" which is the one with ethanol in it.

I believe BP still offers "Regular Unleaded" but many servos have simplified things and only stock "Unleaded 91" with the ethanol.
and they sell it as that as marked on the bowsers.

Just an observation in our local area, I use Mobil unleaded from a mobile branded servo here in Qld and I have noticed different bang for buck fuel loads. I know they have to sell at least an average of 4% ethanol in the fuel by local law, so I often wonder if different ratios of ethanol have been added to the fuel to comply, from no ethanol to 10% ethanol. I am also pretty sure the servo doesn't tamper with the fuel after it is unloaded.

We now travel mostly around town in our small car, on the same routes and at the same times, we fill every fortnight and the distance is usually around 400 to 450k so there is at least a workable base for comparisons. The amount often varies around 8 litres per fill or 2 extra litres per hundred K, I suspect and it is only just that, the extra fuel consumption is attributed to the adding of ethanol to the fuel.

I know I have done back to back runs of over 400k on the same road with similar temp and weather conditions and found similar results using straight unleaded on one journey and E10 on the other.
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Tuesday, Nov 06, 2018 at 10:46

Tuesday, Nov 06, 2018 at 10:46
9900eagle, you may be correct about the wording issue, sorry, my misunderstanding. You are probably right with regard to service stations just stocking Unleaded 91 with Ethanol. In Qld, the legislation states that Oil Companies must sell a certain percentage by total volume of Biofuels, and in the case of petrol, that bio additive is Ethanol. Not sure what this percentage by total volume is, could be as high as 25%. As far as the amount of additive in petrol is concerned, with E10, it must contain no more than 10%, E85, no more than 85%.

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Reply By: Member - Murray R (VIC) - Saturday, Nov 03, 2018 at 20:09

Saturday, Nov 03, 2018 at 20:09
Muzbry
As Garycol has said E10 is not a friend of older cars as it can eat and turn rubber hoses to mush. There is a lot of rubber hoses in the fuel lines of the maxima. don't be tight buy 95 LOL

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Reply By: RMD - Saturday, Nov 03, 2018 at 21:00

Saturday, Nov 03, 2018 at 21:00
Does it have a petrol cap Advice label stating E10 is ok? Does it have a knock sensor to detect detonation and able to alter the timing to suit the octane rating and get the most out of it? E10 has less energy within the fuel and it may use more fuel for same distance and of no benefit cost wise or power. It shouldn’t harm engine parts though.
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Reply By: Jackolux - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 08:31

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 08:31
In Victoria E10 is listed as E10 and I believe it's about 94 RON
I'm in Queensland ATM and , I see 91oct , biofuel + 10% Ethanol on the pumps
is it 91 or 95 here in QLD .
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 08:39

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 08:39
Jackolux, as far as I know, E10 is legislated to have a minimum of 91 RON. However, it can be as high as 94 RON, and most Oil Companies state their E10 is 94 RON.

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Follow Up By: Batt's - Thursday, Nov 08, 2018 at 05:05

Thursday, Nov 08, 2018 at 05:05
I wouldn't worry to much about the exact octane level as it has probably already decreased by the time we get it from the pumps. The weather plays a part in it also in summer it's less volatile. Exposing it to air like when stored in a tank with a breather like your car or lawn mower also it last longer in a completely sealed container. Just pump it in and drive that's all I do.
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Reply By: Mikee5 - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 08:51

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 08:51
The comment about BP 91 is interesting. At a BP servo I saw a small sign which stated that the 91 that they sell may contain up to 10% ethanol, even though it is not coming from the E10 pump. Be careful.
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Reply By: Gronk - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 19:41

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 19:41
Guess what, all cars have a manual.....usually kept in the glovebox....and if you read it, it will tell you what fuel you can use !!
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Follow Up By: Member - johnat - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 20:00

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 20:00
What? Read the manual? What kind of fool are you?

When ALL else fails ... RTFM.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 15:40

Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 15:40
Manuals come in a sealed plastic wrapper but with no opening instructions.
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Reply By: splits - Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 21:50

Sunday, Nov 04, 2018 at 21:50
I don't think E10 is ever going to go away. The percentage of it will most likely increase. Its emission reduction seems to be its main advantage.E85

Craig Lowndes said in that link that it made no difference to performance but there was a massive reduction in exhaust fumes.

Its other advantage is its octane rating. Higher octane petrol if often mistakenly seen as being able to produce more power. It is only a measurement of a fuel's resistance to detonation.OCTANE

The paragraph at the top of this page mentions detonating prematurely.DETONATION Fuel should never detonate at any time but it should explode at the right time. An explosion is a rapid but controlled burning of the fuel mixture that builds up pressure and gives the pistion an extended push down the cylinder. Detonation is an instantaneous ignition of the entire fuel mixture that hits the top of the piston like a single hammer blow.

It is usually caused by excessive heat or pressure in a cylinder. This can come from things like struggling up a steep hill in too high a gear or a faulty cooling system.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 15:39

Monday, Nov 05, 2018 at 15:39
Not sure you can differentiate between detonation and explosion. A land mine is sudden and when detonated it explodes, not a vontrolled burn. Detonation is the onset of an explosion. In an engine cylinder you never want explosions, only controlled burn rate to heat the air with subsequent useful expansion.
In a firearm the primer is the detonator and it initiates a controlled burn of powder charge in chamber. If it explodes = no firearm.
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Follow Up By: splits - Thursday, Nov 08, 2018 at 07:44

Thursday, Nov 08, 2018 at 07:44
Not sure you can differentiate between detonation and explosion. A land mine is sudden and when detonated it explodes, not a vontrolled burn. Detonation is the onset of an explosion. In an engine cylinder you never want explosions, only controlled burn rate to heat the air with subsequent useful expansion.
In a firearm the primer is the detonator and it initiates a controlled burn of powder charge in chamber. If it explodes = no firearm.
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I am just going by what I was taught as first a motor mechanic and then as an RAAF armament fitter.

I have also had a licence for surface blasting in WA.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Nov 12, 2018 at 00:28

Monday, Nov 12, 2018 at 00:28
The definition of fuel combustion in an internal combustion engine is a controlled, but very rapid burn.

A normal fuel burn can be defined as an explosion - but a better definition of an explosion is one where the speed of the reaction is virtually instantaneous, resulting in serious damage or great destruction.

Detonating cord explodes at a speed not less than 6400 M/sec. Black powder can either burn very rapidly or explode - but when it explodes, it explodes at a speed much less than the explosive in detcord.

Deflagration is the rate at which a flame front moves through a solid mass of propellant.
Deflagration is literally a burning due to a transfer of heat in the material, which separates it from detonation, which is a chemical decomposition caused by the passage of a pressure wave through an explosive.

In an internal combustion engine, the flame front is ignited by the spark plug long before the piston reaches TDC (between 10 and 40 degrees on average).
The flame front then proceeds rapidly through the fuel-air mixture, at an even and controlled burn rate.

However, if the conditions are right, the fuel-air mixture can detonate - effectively, a very rapid and destructive explosion.
Detonation in an engines combustion chamber occurs beyond, and outside the flame front generated by the spark plug.

Detonation in a combustion chamber is initiated by a combination of heat and pressure on the fuel-air mixture, beyond the smoothly-burning flame front, and is characterised by an extremely rapid explosion of the fuel-air mixture, resulting in a major shockwave, generating pressures well beyond the normal but rapid pressure rise, that is caused by the fuel-air mixture burning at the flame front.

The resultant extremely high pressures caused by detonation, is what causes engine knocking, and this very often results in engine damage.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: splits - Monday, Nov 12, 2018 at 21:42

Monday, Nov 12, 2018 at 21:42
Thanks Ron. There is a difference between detonation and an explosion but to the general public and the media, anything that goes bang is an explosion.

My old dictionary mentions the words " shock wave" in its description of detonation. It does not include it in its description of an explosion but it does included the burning of fuel in a car engine.

The old WW2 60 lb rocket was propelled by cordite and so was a .303 rifle bullet. It burnt progressively in both and pushed the bullet along the barrel and the rocket through the air.

The head of the rocket contained about 18 lbs of TNT according to my Air Force instructors. When it hit the target, the primer detonated and sent a shock wave through the TNT which detonated instantly hitting anything within reach with an instant shattering force. There was nothing progressive about it.

I have used detonating cord but not in the RAAF. It certainly has some power in it. Wrap it a few times around a heavy steel pipe and if it does not cut it in half instantly, it will leave it looking like an hour glass.

Have you seen this video? Texas City I think this would qualify as a detonation.
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Reply By: Member Kerry W (WA) - Wednesday, Nov 07, 2018 at 13:58

Wednesday, Nov 07, 2018 at 13:58
Hi Muz,
Dont know from your post how old your darlings Maxima is, but they are reputed to have one of the best engines ever made - worth looking after.
We have 2 Maximas an early one with 350,000ks and a near newish one with 45,000ks - the last thing I personally would put in them is E10. They do recommend Premium. Occasionally the older one gets 91 by mistake and it seems OK. The newer one just goes too well to even think about putting lower quality fuel in.

The main reason I own 2 Maximas - (apart from the build and comfort quality) is that I am a reluctant car seller - I find a good vehicle and I keep it till it dies. The older Maxima just wont die and still feels like a gutsy limo - 21 years so far...(touches head muttering "touch wood").
So as you mentioned, the "long term" I thought I'd add my two bobs worth.

Maximas from what I have experienced and learnt are one of the few really low maintenence and reliable vehicles on the road - the J32s rarely give trouble - was going to buy a high k J32 Maxima a few years ago so I asked a few Nissan service centres what went wrong with them after a few years - all said - nothing - we only see them for regular services. Ended up with a near new one and am expecting 10 trouble free years at least from it. So my point is - personally I wouldnt risk it - fuel and oils are cheap compared to repairs and replacement.
Kerry W (WA)
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