Lithium Battery, should I get one?

Hi. Chris

You say your full river battery is 9 years old and finally died. I think that is enough of an endorsement of their quality not to buy anything else.

You obviously know how to look after a battery of that type. My suggestion is to stick with what you know.

Cheers Greg

Chris
I have been using Fusion branded lithium batteries and both auxiliary in my vehicle, and also in the van for the past year. These are charged via Redarc bcdc1225D in the truck, and Redarc BDCD1240D in the van, and also a Projecta 35 amp smart charger for the 240v charging in the van. Solar panels are fitted to both truck and van.

The reason for the BCDC chargers is due to the 'smart' alternator being fitted to the truck (2018 Isuzu Dmax), and also you can not successfully run a Voltage Sensitive Relay with a mixture of battery chemistries, particularly when Lithium is involved due to the differences in their manner of operation. Lithium batteries do NOT drop voltage as they discharge until they are well down, whereas AGM batteries slowly and progressively loose voltage as they discharge.

Lithium batteries are NOT all the same, some battery manufacturers specifically require specific charging regimes, whereas others (Fusion for one) say that any good smart charger is sufficient.

Having used both AGM and Lithium batteries I will be staying with the Lithium, due to better quality power, the ability to supply a greater percentage of their rated output without damage, and their weight advantages.

Hope this helps.
Regards
Athol

I just took delivery of two 200 AH lithiums from EV Power in WA. They are for a new build so I have not had a chance to load them up yet.

According to EV Power, their LiPO4 batteries are happy with a 14.4 volt charge and a 13.6 -13.8 volt float, something that most conventional chargers will do.
I found them very price competitive and easy to deal with.

Their 100 AH battery is $985 plus freight. EV Power

Keith

I have 3 x 120 Fullriver agms in my rig. 9 years is good from a battery. Obviously your set up looks after the battery condition very well. I would stay with the Fullriver as the weight has been ok for at least 9 years. Lithium is a great battery but they too will be old technology. Was reading an article the other day about the development of solid state batteries. Way cheaper, lighter again, quicker charging, can be cycled right down and will be better value than lithium. About 5 years away.

$550 for Fullriver 150 amp/hr is cheap compared to at least double that for the lithium. As I said ...9 years is great from a battery....I,d stick with your winning formula.

I contacted EV Power and wanted to speak to someone about what I wanted to do, set up a bank of Lithium batteries in a boat to power an electric trolling motor (24v).
They would not let me speak to someone about this setup and was told I could only email my questions to them. I really did not know enough to ask specific questions and told the lady who I spoke to that but she would not help.
I then rang EV Works also WA based and spoke to Tim Brunner for about 15-20 minutes and guess who had my credit card number and an order for around $1500.00. I have spoken to EV Works since and Tim always has time to talk.

I have no affiliation with EV Works other than this and yes I'm more than happy to tell everybody I can about the lack customer service from EV Power.

I have been charging a couple of LiFePo4 batteries with a D250S for over a year without apparent issues. Have used both alternator and solar for charge sources. When charging using the D250S I keep and eye on the voltage and disconnect from charge when it is topped up. I have also added a Low Voltage Disconnect set to 11.8 Volts. Because I have two 50 Ah batteries, I charge and use in rotation. Currently getting 4.5 full days of cold beer out of the Engel from two fully charged 50 Ah Li.

I recently started using a new DC to DC charger that automatically disconnects charge at the top; does not go to float. I will now install the 250S in the Grandsons's ute to charge his new Li setup.

The weight saving alone is a compelling reason to go Lithium. Getting on in age now and one advantage for me is that it is seriously easy now to park the Campervan in the shade and put a panel and battery in the sun.

Iza

Hi Chris
Ctek say that the D250s is not suitable for Lithium Iron batteries as its charging profile doesn't suit. l recently fitted three Amptron lithium batteries to a caravan and they come with strick instuctions as to how they had to be wired up being that all cables had to be the same length to each battery from a central +ve and -ve point to get correct charging of each individual battery. I also wired in a Redarc bcdc1250D charger as this is suitable for Lithium batteries. You say that you only want to replace one battery so much of above doesn't apply to you, l said it to show that Amptron seem to know what their on about and that the van owner did alot of research and settled on them
Check out their web site and see what you think, just another brand.
Redarc also make other bcdc chargers that suit Lithium batteries in smaller amperage
Amptron batteries also have a built in BMS which you can look at that in two ways (1) if it doesn't fail alls good (2) if it fails it will deem the battery dead.
Between the battery and correct charger its not a cheap exersise if you have to take instalation into account as well.
As said above if your old if your old system worked well why not just replace you Full River battery at about 1/3 of the price of going Lithium.

Murray

Around mid 2018 I did a lot of reading up into lithium (lifepo4) batteries.

I was all ready to slap the money down for a 100AH Enerdrive & charger, but just couldn't justify the expense.

From what I found out Enerdrive & Victron are reputable brands. You'll see there are lots of brands of lithium batteries all roughly around the same price, I came to the conclusion that that is most likely as they are all manufactured at the same factory to the same specs and made to the same standard. Then there are batteries that are more expensive, possibly made at the same factory, but to higher standards.

I also had to remodel the inside of my truck as heat kills batteries and I wasn't going to put a $1000 battery next to my motor under the bonnet. This was a problem as space is very limited.

In the end I decided against it and went with a recommended $200ish AGM.

The real advantage of lithium is their ability to provide power to a load down to a lower depth of discharge than AGM, their ability to quickly recharge & their reduced weight.

Good luck with your decision.

The lithium carbonate market has collapsed badly in the last 6 mths, so I don't understand why lithium batteries are still so expensive.

In May 2018, Lithium Carbonate of battery grade was bringing 139,000 yuan a tonne in China.

However, at the start of this year, Lithium Carbonate had dropped to around 78,000 yuan a tonne.

It's interesting to see that Iza B's Hi-Max battery is made by the Optimum Nano Energy company (www.optimumnanoenergy.com).

However, Optimum shut down their Lithium battery production for 6 months, from June to December 2018, and made nearly all their employees take 6 mths off.

It appears there has been serious overproduction of Lithium batteries in China, largely due to distortions in the Chinese economic system.
The Chinese Govt was giving electric bus builders up to $150,000 per bus to build electric buses - but of course, the system was being rorted, so the Govt ceased handing out the subsidies.

This has left a lot of Lithium battery manufacturers in China in deep manure as they try to balance output with actual, unsubsidised demand.
These manufacturers are also carrying huge debts due to battery production expansion.

It will be interesting to see what happens from here on in - but I would expect that Chinese lithium battery manufacturers would be really keen to drop prices at present, to stimulate demand, so they can stay in business, and repay their debts.

Some interesting links ...

Optimum Nano slashes production to 20% of former output - May 2018

Worlds No 4 Lithium battery maker halts production for 6 mths - Jun 2018

Chinese Lithium prices stable at 78,000 yuan/tonne at end of 2018

Optimum Nano 50aH LiFeP04 battery

Cheers, Ron.

Chris,

I have in my van 360Ah LiFePO4 from EV Power (Rod Dilkes) Best thing I ever did. The batteries he supplied are happy with my existing lead-acid chargers as all (Mains, DC-DC and solar) have appropriate voltage options.

Half the weight, twice the useable power, long term cost of ownership equal to or less than lead-acid.

Check out my blog on a LiFePO4 conversion.

Cheers

I have had 200 Ah of lithium cells in my camper for over 4 years. I am using a Ctek D250s Dual and Projecta 240 Volt charger.

All is well - no problems at all. I also fitted a battery management system which cuts off the load if the Voltage of a single cell goes low, or the chargers if a cell goes high.

Another major advantage of Lithium batteries is that they maintain their Voltage right down to 20% SOC at least. Your fridge will run much better than with the dropping Voltage from a lead battery.

I won't be buying a lead battery any time soon.

Cheers
Numb Thumbs ;)

Talk to this guy @ DCS on the Gold coast $1199 for 100AMP
paul@deepcyclesystems.com.au

very knowledgeable I have one for the Van and so much better than a 125AMP deep cycle I had can now make my toast for breaky and have a electric blanket at night still power in the morning the old one would be flat 11V !


http://www.deepcyclesystems.com.au/marine-rv-12v-deep-cycle-battery-charger-trolling/12v-100ah-lithium

Having been involved in the Battery retail and fitting world in the last few years and having seen Lithium, AGM, Flooded technology out there. I personally have some doubts about moving to Lithium at this stage.

1: the battery cost per Amp hour is significantly higher, the average RRP for a 100AHr is around $1200, for a 200 hour is is around $3000 for Lithium

2 AGM and flooded come in various qualities as well. A Full River is a Century with another screen print coming form the Yuasa Korea Factory. At one point they also did the same spec as a Power House brand

3 cheaper AGM deep cycle are good for about 300 to 350 full discharge cycles, Better quality 400. Gel is designed for 600 or there about. High end flooded such as US Batteries are designed for a 1000 cycles.

Most Lithium Ion is only capable of about 300 to 350 100% DOD cycle. Iron Nano Phosphate has less capacity but greater cycle capacity but is not found in practice to do 2500 cycles as much marketing claims. They are typically able to do 1000

4 If the only reason if your looking around then stick with AGM or flooded at this stage based on price and in-use life which will be about 5 years. Lithium will also tend to have an in-use life of 5 years.

5 Lithium batteries do not like being continuously floated, Lead based tech does. This means having Lithium sitting on float with solar and other such items will kill them much sooner than the claimed life on the label. They have the advantage of not readily self discharging and will hold 80% charge after five years sitting on the shelf (if it is a good lithium battery), so lithium can sit around a long time between uses if there is no draw on them.

6 the misconception about lithium is 100% cycling, yes it will do full voltage until flat but doesn't like doing it all the time every day. Lithium does far better with partial discharge and will do the equivalent of 4 times the equivalent 100% cycles if only every partial discharge is no more than 50%. So if the battery is rated at 1000 and you only every 50% discharge it, it will last the equivalent of 4000 100% DOD cycles. (yep the maths is weird, its how the chemistry works)

7 Lithium batteries do build up dendrites between plates and this is rapidly increased with 100% DOD.

8 Lithium charges with constant voltage and constant current. All charges that do lithium and Lead acid change how they charge. Lead acid charging typically now has many stages including rippling voltage and voltage variances between stages. Lithium does not need bulk or absorption. The Victron range of chargers are a good example where the chemistry are defined. Sometimes the the battery manufacturer gets around this by making the battery smart, however this adds more components that can fail.

Finally all good Lithium batteries have a set of protection circuits in them (the only legal way to sell them), this will detect over and under cell voltages and will disconnect the cell from the outside world. This is to prevent shorts and other reactions that will lead to a cell rupture and fire. Once the circuit switches in no more battery.

At this point in time the price point still heavily counts against Lithium being truly viable. There are still safety concerns around them. If a battery does go is will not stop burning until you are out of lithium. It is still proving a big problem in motorbike start batteries.

Personally I stick with Lead technology as it is not worth the Money. Century do a 100AHr AGM for about $480 RRP, I personally see no point in spending a $1000 plus to do the same job.