The LDV 4wds are quiet impressive in my opinion!

Submitted: Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 11:32
ThreadID: 138123 Views:3404 Replies:8 FollowUps:38
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A contractor I've been working with , has just purchased a new single cab LDV 4wd ute, and it has been a real surprise to both of us as how well this thing performs on his thousand acre property ,which consists of some very rough and mountain country. The motor comes out of the same factory as the Colorado engine, and comes with all bosch electronics.

I know there are some on here that think these are a rattley piece of crap, but i can tell you this, in the LDV they run a lot quieter and smoother than my 4D56 Mitsubishi and Toyotas D4D 3.0 l. when idling. The wheel base is a tad longer than most,and their chassis is excellent creating a good ride and load carrying capacity

Not trying to sell these things LOL!, but for the Dollars they must be very competitive.

Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: Member - Bigfish - Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 12:15

Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 12:15
Sorry mate...If is isnt a $120,000 toyota it cant possibly be anygood........
AnswerID: 624834

Follow Up By: axle - Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 13:33

Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 13:33
LOL!!



Cheers.
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Reply By: Ron N - Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 12:43

Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 12:43
Axle - The LDV utes comes with the Fiat-built 2.8L VM Motori engine, which is the engine also used in the Jeep and the Colorado.

VM Motori is an Italian company formerly owned 50% by GM and 50% by Fiat.
In 2013, Fiat bought out GM's 50% share, and VM Motori is now 100% owned by Fiat.
The VM Motori engines are reliable enough, but often a little undersized. The LDV engine is 110Kw, which is barely enough power for a ute that size - particularly when LDV rate their utes at over 6 tonne GCM.

The auto transmission in the LDV is built by Punch Powerglide, a European transmission manufacturer formerly owned by the Dutch DAF company.

DAF went bankrupt in 1993 after forming a Joint Venture with Leyland Trucks (a Rover Motors subsidiary) in 1987. The JV company produced vans in Britain, known as LDV vans (Leyland-DAF-Vans).

LDV went bankrupt in 2008, after being purchased by the Russian GAZ company in 2006. The intellectual rights of the LDV company were sold by the liquidators of LDV to a Chinese company, Eco Concept, in 2009 - which company then sold the rights to SAIC (Shanghai Automotive Industrial Corporation), who builds the Chinese LDV utes, and who operates under the brand name Maxus.

SAIC has Joint Ventures in place with VW, GM and Iveco - so it is sourcing its technology from the worlds biggest auto manufacturers.

The Chinese utes fall down in four areas;

1. The build quality does not have the intense attention to detail that is a hallmark of the Thai/Jap built vehicles. The Chinese are gung-ho when it comes to attention to detail. A regular feature of Chinese vehicles is trim falling off and switches coming apart. They have a way to go, to match Japanese build quality.

2. The Chinese fail to appreciate the importance of building a "Brand Name" and sticking with it, and building the reputation of that "Brand Name". Classic examples of "Brand Name" value are Caterpillar and Ford. Both have spent decades defining and refining their respective brand names.

The Chinese will sell you a vehicle this week called East Wind and next week it will be a Lon Jing - and from a different factory. Their lack of understanding and appreciation in this area is abysmal.

3. Technical and parts backup for Chinese equipment is pretty appalling. Language translators in China are in short supply - and technical language translators, even more so.
I know about this area, because I have an English-Italian friend who made a very good living from translating English technical manuals into European languages - in itself, a minefield of varying descriptive terms.

Conversion of technical language back and forth between English and European languages and Chinese - and then supplying Chinese-origin technical information in English, produces "interesting results" - as we regularly see with Chinese-sourced assembly and use instructions for their products.

4. The Chinese vehicles are cheap, aimed at the "low-end" of the market, and have resale values in accordance with their cheapness.
You are struggling to sell used Chinese utes, even low-km ones.
I have seen them sell at auction for as low as $4000, for low-km vehicles, and the auction houses struggled to get bids on them.

In time, the Chinese will probably lift their game as regards ute build quality, performance, technical and parts support, and resale value.
But it won't happen in the near future, it will take many years to achieve that.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: axle - Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 13:31

Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 13:31
Hi Ron, I can't dispute what you have posted, but from what I experienced out there driving this thing around, is the fact that the Chinese built utes are not to bad
for the dollars invested....Although depending on the individual circumstance,it would probably be better to run the thing into the ground,and hope not to much goes wrong...lol.

As far as resale values go the Chinese vehicles are at the bottom of the tree for sure,..but having just got trade in prices for the wifes Toyota, and a late model Triton ute, i'm bloody thinking resale values on most vehicles are very low these days.

Cheers.
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Follow Up By: AlbyNSW - Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 20:00

Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 20:00
I guess there are a number of ways you can look at resale value. I know a guy who bought a Great Wall for 20k and sold it for only 10k 12 months later but his outlay was only 20 k and his loss 10k
Whereas the Toyota etc buyer has outlaid more than double that and yes he will get a better resale value as a percentage but will still lose more than 10k when selling it
If you can live with the Chinese jobbie and it does what you need it to do it can be a very cost effective option
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Follow Up By: Cyberess - Sunday, Apr 14, 2019 at 18:44

Sunday, Apr 14, 2019 at 18:44
Ron N replied:
> 4. The Chinese vehicles are cheap, aimed at the "low-end" of the market,
> and have resale values in accordance with their cheapness.
> You are struggling to sell used Chinese utes, even low-km ones.
> I have seen them sell at auction for as low as $4000, for low-km vehicles,
> and the auction houses struggled to get bids on them.


Which Auction house are you able to get a 5 star Ancap rated T60 LDV dual cab for for $4000? I would love to purchase them for my kids, and what are you calling low Ks -- It's O.K. if the Auction House is down south as shipping to Darwin should be just $2500, anyway come back where you have seen T60 LDV going for $4000, I am very interested.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Apr 14, 2019 at 19:20

Sunday, Apr 14, 2019 at 19:20
No LDV's have come up for auction yet, they are too new to the market. I didn't specifically state "T60 LDV" vehicles at auctions, I said, "Chinese utes".

Here's a 2012 one offered at $4000 for the last 4 days, with no bids.

Great Wall V200 dual cab at auction

Here's a 2012, turbo diesel manual X200 GW wagon - no bids at $3500, despite being on offer for 4 days, so far.

GW X200 for auction

Here's the current crop of Chinese utes and wagons on offer at Grays - the black GW X200 diesel started at $9 and it's made it to $209 with 4 bids, after 4 days! LOL
The blue X200 diesel with 89,000 kms started at $109 and it's made $309 after 4 days, with only 3 bidders!

Chinese utes and wagons for auction



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Follow Up By: Cyberess - Sunday, Apr 14, 2019 at 23:01

Sunday, Apr 14, 2019 at 23:01
Hmm you certainly can't get a 4x4 LDV T60 5 star Ancap rated ute for $4000, and for what I have seen the LDV T60 build quality is very different to the Greatwall V200 utes, and that would include panel fit etc.

Looking at your "LOLs" may I do a LOL at the "2007 Toyota Hilux SR 4x4 T/D Manual Dual Cab" that has a odometer reading of 121457 and does not have a bid on it as yet as well -- It appears to have been up for 4 days as well -- it does appear to be a nice ute, I am not sure what your LOLs are all about. ;)

That blue X200 diesel with 89,000kms that has made it to $309 in it's description it has engine noise (That could be anything) and it still has near 3 days left on it's bidding -- The usual bidding really only really starts in the last 4 hrs. -- still a diesel with engine noise could near to a right off.

There appears to be a heaps of D40 Nissans at near prices of the chinese utes as well, probably will sell for a lot more near the end of the Auction.

Dam it does not look like I am about to pick up a couple of LDV utes at $4000 each.
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Reply By: Michael H9 - Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 14:17

Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 14:17
Plenty of standard inclusions and good safety ratings, however, productreview.com.au has a lot of complaints about dodgy electronics causing intermittent failures. We all know brands like Land Rover suffer reliability issues from the sheer number of built in electronic gizmos. If you put all of those gizmos in a cheaply built ute then the odds of failure multiply. If I go by other cheap Chinese products, every second one is great, your mate might have bought one of those.
I'm not a fan of how they look either....
AnswerID: 624839

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 16:54

Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 16:54
Looks ? Nearly impossible to tell 1 brand of ute from another nowadays , that's why Toyota - Ford - Isuzu - Holden -Mazda ETC ETC plaster their brand name / model in foot high letters on the tailgate and lower door sides ....
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Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 18:07

Sunday, Apr 07, 2019 at 18:07
Chinese built BMW models don't seem to have and more reliability issues over their German and US built models.
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Reply By: Iza B - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 06:43

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 06:43
I'm having trouble resolving the contrast between the OP report of a happy customer against the comments that the ute is not likely to be a good buy because it is a Chinese produced product.

Local dealer started selling a Chinese produced product some years ago and initially had problems with several vehicles being returned on a flatbed. Dealer solved nearly all forward problems by dedicating an extra two and a half hours to pre-delivery servicing. Seemingly tiny things like hose clamps needing an extra turn and a blob of silicone on the back of a sensor plug and a torque wrench on most of the suspension components, dramatically changed the number of warranty claims. Service manager also made sure that panel alignment was checked before any vehicle made it to the showroom floor.Feedback to the factories caused changes to their quality control procedures. Telling potential customers about the reason for reputation issues, and their fix, got the dealership a lot of sales.

The five year warranty period for the LDV utes being sold now will have an effect on reputation and resale values.

Iza
AnswerID: 624844

Follow Up By: RMD - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 16:47

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 16:47
Isn't the idea of buying a vehicle is to have it perform well? Not having to give feedback to China to modify or fix issues, the panels should be ok from new. The suspension should be bolted securely on assembly, hose clamps the same.
The Chinese have had time to observe/steal all technology from all other makes and their issues and any failure rates.
Simply telling customers of faults and how they are fixed doesn't instill confidence when the faults and issues shouldn't even be there in the first place.
Australia has long been a dumping ground of vehicles from other countries and it continues today. Many well known makes fit into this category.
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Follow Up By: Iza B - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 18:53

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 18:53
A basic principle of TQM is the feedback loop. Particularly important in engineering processes and especially important in nascent technologies.

Might be useful to direct your comments to Boeing in regards the 737 MAX rollout.

Iza
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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 06:53

Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 06:53
How about Jeep, they are still riding on a reputation they earned decades ago.
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 07:52

Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 07:52
I thought Jeep were trying desperately to get rd of that reputation....
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FollowupID: 898398

Follow Up By: Iza B - Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 08:06

Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 08:06
Maybe Jeep should look to the example of the Chinese and do something about the poor reputation Jeep has these days.

Iza
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Reply By: David I1 - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 08:24

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 08:24
Having owned a Great Wall for 6 years, all I can say about quality issues is rubbish. Yes I had to get the Asbestos removed (under warranty), but other than normal wear items, it was very reliable. And cheap!. It was built from a parts bin,(ie GM Rodeo and Forenzo chasis suspension and body, Mistubishi motor, Toyota rear end). Only bits that were GW engineered were the gearbox and front diff. So I just purchased parts accordingly. I did in excess of 150,000kms and after 6 years traded it in and got $5 K trade in. For an out lay of $24K that was a great return. Try keeping any of the current models of cars and after 6 years only loosing $18K!!! Current owner loves it. Only problem with most Chinese cars is the low engine out put. That is because over there a car with more than 100Kw is then taxed to the limit. However the good side to this is that the vehicles delivered here have motors that are not over stressed with power boosters etc. And that is their main problem, they struggle to tow a 5 x 3 trailer.
AnswerID: 624846

Reply By: Member - McLaren3030 - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 14:41

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 14:41
The experience of my next door neighbor is that his boss decided to buy Great Wall Utes for the fleet. My neighbor’s vehicle was in the workshop having its transmission rebuilt about every 7 or 8 months. It was not just his vehicle either, of the 5 Utes in the fleet, 4 had regular transmission issues.

Macca.
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Follow Up By: David I1 - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 17:04

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 17:04
Must not know what the clutch pedal does?????
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 19:17

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 19:17
Not with 4 out of 5 failing, problems within the transmission itself.

Macca
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 20:27

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 20:27
I have 3 friends with 4.2 GU Patrols, all 3 manual gearboxes failed!
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Follow Up By: axle - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 21:16

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 21:16
what about Toyota as well !,..60..80..100series had crap manual gearboxes in the early days,....Hang on didn't the first of the v8s ..have strife as well?...Hmmm.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 22:05

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 22:05
Like alternators hanging in the mud, weak axles & tie rod ends breaking.
Not to mention Navara D40s breaking timing chains & destroying motors!
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 08:13

Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 08:13
Shaker & axle, yes these vehicles had problems, but not in the first twelve months. All of the issues you nominated with Patrols & Landcruisers developed over time, some as much as over 100,000 kms. As far as alternators being low in the engine bay, that is a design problem, not a mechanical issue.

Macca.
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Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 08:27

Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 08:27
It is a mechanical/electrical issue if you are stuck miles from anywhere with a duff alternator.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 22:10

Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 22:10
Also who would design a 4WD with a narrower wheel track on the rear?
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Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 10:45

Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 10:45
There are plenty of vehicles that have a narrower track at the rear.
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 14:30

Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 14:30
Shaker, not a fan of Toyota then?

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Follow Up By: Shaker - Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 18:44

Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 18:44
I think Toyota can be good, I still have a Prado, not a fan of the 76/79 series though.
I would be keen to know what other 4wds have different front to rear track.

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Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 20:35

Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 20:35
One of my cars has a wider track at the rear and the other has a narrower track at the rear.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 20:36

Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 20:36
Shaker - '47 to '65 Willys Jeeps LWB "Pickup" Trucks had a substantially different wheel track from front to rear.
The rear track was 63.5" (1620mm) and the front track was 57" (1448mm).

They were the stupidest-looking 4WD around, and they suffered a major drawback in soft going with the huge difference in track.

The Forestry Dept in W.A. had a few of these when I was in short pants in the mid-1950's. I don't know what happened to them.

Willys Jeep Trucks

I think there was another Pommy 4WD with substantially different front to rear track, but I can't remember which one it was.

The Landcruiser narrow rear track is a recognised problem, and it is the reason behind a lot of the V8 Landcruiser traytops and Troopies rollover incidents.

I believe it is also a factor in the too-common, rear wheel loss via stud breakage, of the V8 'Cruisers.
My nephew runs several heavily-loaded V8 Landcruiser traytops as service vehicles - and he's had one total write-off, due to a rollover, and had two of them lose rear wheels.
He's a sharp operator and good on maintenance, so it's not a maintenance issue.

The fact that several businesses now make a good living out of widening the rear track of the V8 Landcruiser traytops and Troopies is a good indication that the narrow rear track of these vehicles is a basic problem that requires attention - in particular when the vehicles are heavily loaded, or loaded high.

Cheers, Ron
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 21:21

Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 21:21
Ron, you are going back 50 odd years, they most likely learnt their lesson & Toyota should have been aware of the issues it can cause. If the Chinese had done it people here would sinking in the boot!

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Reply By: Steve in Kakadu - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 21:38

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 21:38
Make sure you keep the VIN # handy, it’s the only way the dealer can figure out what make of engine, gearbox or diff went into it. Apparently each run have a different combination.
Talk about a bitza.

I’ll keep my 200 thanks.
AnswerID: 624851

Follow Up By: OzzieCruiser - Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 22:20

Monday, Apr 08, 2019 at 22:20
Having to provide the Vin when ordering parts for any modern vehicle is pretty standard these days. I was in a Toyota dealer a while back and they would not even try to look up a part without a Vin. I bought some serpentine belts for a Mitsubishi from Repco last Thurs and even I had model and built date, they required the Vin before they could provide the belts.

So having to provide a Vin is not unusual.
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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 20:00

Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 20:00
Yeah you are right, however, nobody has had to use a vin to work out which manufacturers engine,gearbox or diff you have in a vehicle.
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Follow Up By: Iza B - Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 07:41

Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 07:41
You do need a VIN to work out what brand of Airbag is installing in your vehicle. And if you want parts for a Nissan Pulsar, you need the VIN when standing at the parts counter.

Iza
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FollowupID: 898418

Follow Up By: axle - Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 08:32

Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 08:32
Iza B


Not only do you need a VIN to obtain parts with most vehicles these days, a bottle of scotch at hand is also needed to calm one down from outrageous pricing.!!


Axle.
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Follow Up By: Member - shane r1 - Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 08:58

Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 08:58
Back in the early 90’s we worked on 80’s ford and Holden, probably pre using vin no’s. I remember having to check what brand of brakes (Pbr or Girlock I think) were on a particular vehicle because there were 2 brands used, running different brake pads.
We’re there different gearboxes in some of those too?
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 14:45

Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 14:45
Borg-Warner Australia supplied around 98% of the gearboxes that went into Holdens and Falcons in the '70's and '80's.

The only other gearbox suppliers, which supplied small numbers of gearboxes, were Opel, Muncie and Saginaw, and occasionally, ZF.

It's not hard to identify the gearboxes in that era, they were generally readily identifiable.
However, the likes of the Holden 4 speeds had around 3 variations, which variations had different gear ratios.
M20, M21 and M22 Holden 4 speed 'boxes all looked the same, but had different internal gear clusters and shafts.

The American GM vehicles used the M20, M21 and M22 designations, but these were a completely different transmission, built by Muncie.
The 327 cid and 350 cid Monaros used Muncie gearboxes, because the engines were straight American-built V8's, not Australian V8's, as were the 253 and 308 cid engines.

Now, if you want to discover real problems - the source is the bell housing bolt patterns!
You could have standard SAE patterns, or manufacturer-specific bolt patterns.

The Chinese have been following Western automotive engineering designs and patterns so far, but they have habit of changing the (Western-based) sources of their components, fairly regularly.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 11:27

Thursday, Apr 11, 2019 at 11:27
And way back when 'Borg Warner' first started in Albury supplying gear boxes for Holden and Ford the General Managers name was " Bernie" , actually Bernhart Schmitt , ie: Smith in Aus speak , who went from being a German immigrant in 58 as a mechanics assistant un-crating the 'parts' of wheat headers imported from Germany and assembled in Albury , his car was not a holden or ford even as the general Manager BUT a two tone 'lime green' NISSAN Cederic ...
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Reply By: Ron N - Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 21:38

Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 21:38
I'll know the Chinese utes have reached "mainstream" acceptance, when the fleet owners start buying them, and I see them on every minesite.

Bottom line is, the only people buying them, are the people who don't have any money, or who are too cheapskate to outlay the extra money for one of the "Big Four" make.

Farmers and station owners are pretty well-known for being tight with money (I have 1st-hand experience, I spent the first 20 years of my working life, doing contract work for farmers) - and they are happy enough to put up with a degree of vehicle unreliability, because they generally have multiple vehicles.

Yes, the economics of buying cheap and selling cheap are O.K. for some, provided you don't mind some degree of poor finish, and some degree of unreliability.
The old adage still holds true in the 21st century - you get what you pay for.

Cheers, Ron.
AnswerID: 624868

Follow Up By: David I1 - Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 23:41

Tuesday, Apr 09, 2019 at 23:41
Having done the Canning twice in my Great Wall and not breaking down, but seeing and hearing over 10 other brands and makes being towed or with issues I think I know which vehicle is more reliable. Also having done the Simpson both ways I know which vehicle is more economical than any Toyota, Nissan or Mutsubishi. People who have never owned a Chinese car are usually the first to rubbish them. Just like people who have never owned a Jeep or a Landrover. Toyota reliability was/is a thing of the past which Toyota still play for all its worth. Hence the extra you pay for their vehicles.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bigfish - Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 07:42

Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 07:42
Some also buy them because they dont like getting ripped off with the intial toyota tax...Pay an extra 20k upfront so the resale value gives you a warm fuzzy feeling at sale time!
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Follow Up By: RMD - Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 08:50

Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 08:50
David I1
Most people buying these vehicles are for work reasons and almost all of them have a tax plan to be able to depreciate them and still sell afterwards, ie not losing much money at all, therefore they will buy them over dearer vehicles.
Some not work related Private owners might have a good run from them but often that is not the case.
Axle mentioned "quiet", I don't think they are overly quiet. Maybe he meant something else.
You mentioned Jeep and Landrover. Just two instances.
A neighbor recently bought a Jeep V8 and has had it 6 months, "most unreliable vehicle he has ever owned", most of that 6 months time it was at the dealers, he said. He had now sold it.
A bloke I worked with bought a LandRover diesel Discovery a few years back and up in the Pilbara with 7000km on clock it chaffed through the auto fluid hose to cooler. Lost all auto fluid in 30 seconds. This on a new vehicle purchased 3 months before. Flat tow with van 4000km to get any service was the result.
You don't have to own one to know of problems with any vehicle, that doesn't stack up.
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Follow Up By: David I1 - Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 09:04

Wednesday, Apr 10, 2019 at 09:04
As I said we all know someone who owns one but not people who actually owned one(ie me). I also own (now) a Landrover because it can tow my van. So far it has done 120K and nothing has happened. I am wondering when it will given all the negative comments I hear from people who dont own one. Yes it is a late model D4 so I dont want to hear about LR in the 1970 - 2016. I also bought a Toyo 76 with an auto at the same time thinking it would be better for out back touring re reliability etc. It is no way as good as the D4 in every respect, service costs, fuel usage and COMFORT. Luckily my son is a Toyota fanatic and bought it. I have no alliegence to any brand but I also know what I like. But each to their own I guess.
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