Toyota LC

Submitted: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 at 21:07
ThreadID: 138412 Views:2472 Replies:6 FollowUps:25
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Just recently came across a new 200 series with a flat battery on the Gibb River Road towing a large van they had no jumper leads & no ideal, when I lifted the bonnet it had 2 tiny Battery’s & linked as one is this the way Toyota has gorne & there was no room for anything else under the bonnet. it was crap when Nissan did this with the 2.5ltr Narvra Is this standard?
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Reply By: IvanTheTerrible - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 at 21:29

Tuesday, May 28, 2019 at 21:29
Been like it on some Cruisers, some Hiluxs and I think a Triton to for quite a while. The Cruiser's dual setup has a greater battery capacity then a single. Usually on high end Cruisers like the Sahara. The Navara was done because of space restriction and the need for a high capacity cranking battery. We put a decent primary battery in and use the other position for a auxiliary battery
AnswerID: 625831

Reply By: Rob A2 - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 09:37

Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 09:37
If it's a new LC200 they are fitted with a single starting battery. So if it is and has two the first question is if that replacement dual battery system is working correctly. Tiny batteries does not provide any indication of what type and capacity so very hard to come to any conclusion from that.

There are plenty of very good dual battery systems for LC200 et al but we've seen some pretty ordinary ones installed as well

Not carrying jumper leads in an automatic 4WD is a pretty optimistic approach IMHO

Rob
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 13:25

Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 13:25
Rob A2, if it’s a GX, I think they still come with two cranking batteries, at least my MY17 GX does. Of course, Toyota may have upgraded the GX since I bought mine.

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Follow Up By: Member - TonyV - Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 21:40

Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 21:40
Jumper leads on any modern car with electronic injectors and fuel pump.

A flat battery = no push start unless there is sufficient charge to keep the ECU's awake.

TonyV

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Reply By: Member - Boobook - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 15:04

Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 15:04
Literally, thousands of 200 owners have installed a large cranking battery and a large Aux Battery under the bonnet in the factory locations.

You can put an NZ 70 as the cranker and an even larger DC31 as the Aux. There is even space for a 3rd battery under there.

New GXL, VX and Sahara's come with one large battery and a large spare battery location. The GX has 2 x N50 batteries but in trays built for N70.

I am not sure why that person has a problem. Its quite simple.



Tony
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Reply By: Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 18:03

Wednesday, May 29, 2019 at 18:03
Duck,

Were they driving and came to a stop, or did you meet them at a campground? Your post does not make that clear.

If it went flat while they were driving they have bigger issues than small OEM batteries.
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Follow Up By: Malcom M - Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 06:29

Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 06:29
like an alternator. They're good for that.
Any flashing lights on the dashboard?
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Follow Up By: RMD - Friday, May 31, 2019 at 17:11

Friday, May 31, 2019 at 17:11
Malcom M
Probably not flashing but simply ON indicating no charge. A small generator with a 240v charger to keep supplying the vehicle electrics is a great addition to a big outback trip, or enough solar to run the rig.
I have a 35cc Hondawhipper snipper motor linked to a small alternator solely for that purpose.
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Follow Up By: duck - Friday, May 31, 2019 at 22:33

Friday, May 31, 2019 at 22:33
They were stopped & left the lights on (Kalumburu rest area cnr of Gibb & Kalumburu rd) had been waiting for 3hrs for someone to stop & had jumper leads they said 4 vehicles had stopped but had no jumper leads, I stopped to have lunch & before I had climbed out the wife was on to it, so I put the leads on & let it charge up a bit before hitting the cruisers start, & all went well no spike of the computer
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 00:54

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 00:54
My pretty basic 2013 SR series Hilux has a beeper that warns you when you leave the lights on (even just park lights), the instant you turn the key off.

Surely the new 200 series has the same system? How could they miss that warning beeper??

Did they just wonder what that funny noise was? - and just wandered off and left the vehicle without figuring it out?? Or were they both as deaf as posts??

How do some people manage to even get to the level of owning a 200 series, without figuring out what a warning beeper noise is all about??

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 08:30

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 08:30
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Ron, some of the cars I have driven beep if you so much as blink. So maybe a bit like security sirens..... you ignore them after a while. lol
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 10:45

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 10:45
Guys,

My MY17 GX Cruiser does not have a beeper to let you know you have left the lights on. However, they will turn off automatically after about 30 minutes. From the comments from the OP, (two small batteries under the bonnet) it seems to suggest that this cruiser was a GX. The GX does not have many "bells & whistles".

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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 11:16

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 11:16
I think my 100 Series turns of after a set time of the motor not running. Surely the 200 does this.

Think you might find some people will not admit to having jumper cables on board for fear of damaging their own vehicles elect system.
Dave.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 11:24

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 11:24
Thanks, Macca, I wasn't aware the GX 200 series was so "basic" that Toyota don't even fit a warning beeper for lights left on, when you turn off the ignition.

This isn't really a "bell" or "whistle" - in this decade of new vehicles of modest cost, that come with a mind-boggling array of "high-level features" as standard, I find it pretty poor that Toyota don't fit a light-warning beeper as standard to the GX - particularly to a 4WD that runs to $70,000 or more off the showroom floor.

I cannot count exactly, the number of times in years past, that I've had to jump start vehicles at the end of shows, field days, etc - where someone has got so excited about viewing the show or field day, and they took off in a hurry from their vehicle, leaving their lights on.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 12:04

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 12:04
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Dave,

What you say about people having a "fear of damaging their vehicles elect system" may well be true, but their fears are misplaced.
Provided that you follow the simple procedure of attaching positive directly to the battery terminal and negative to a solid ground point, then there is no way that harm will come to anything or anyone.

The internal resistance (or more correctly, impedance) of a car battery is in the order of milli-ohms, well below one Ohm. This provides such a solid low impedance shunt path to any generated voltage spike that there is no possibility of such rising to anywhere near causing a problem.

In any case, to generate such a voltage spike would require some induction to be present in the jumper lead circuit and that simply does not exist in any significance.

This myth was born, not from actual incidences, but largely from the marketing perceptions of auto electrical products who could add a cheap simple voltage suppression device to jumper leads, label them as having a "Voltage Surge Suppression" and obtain more dollars for them. So much motivation can be achieved by presenting fear!

Now it may JUST be possible to generate a voltage spike further into the vehicle wiring where some inductance may exist, but even then, automotive grade electronic processors always incorporate protection to their power input circuit.

But no scientific argument I could offer is likely to change their minds. lol



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Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 12:24

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 12:24
All technically correct Alan but there are a lot of people out there who would still be asking ,"what's a positive terminal ? ".
Dave. :)

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 12:25

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 12:25
Allan,

Can you please advise the reason for connecting the negative jumper lead to a good chassis earth on the sick vehicle rather than the negative battery terminal.

If it is to do with the possibility of igniting gas from a spark, then is it necessary if the battery is sealed?

Is the order of connection really that important - especially if both batteries are sealed?

I follow the common procedure but I don't know why :-)
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 12:55

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 12:55
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Yes Frank, the technique maybe had some validity back with the old vented batteries as it could be theorised at least, that creating a spark close above the battery could ignite any cloud of hydrogen present. The likelihood in my mind was minimal to zilch. Not much hydrogen would be vented and any that was would rapidly dissipate. I never experienced it except once (see below).
And in the case of current sealed batteries, the possibility would be less-than-zero.

I referenced that method of attaching jumper leads because it has become universally accepted and I didn't want to ignite the usual flaming. (forum verbal, not hydrogen. lol)
In point of fact, I always attach the negative clamp directly to the battery post. I am seeking the best possible connection to both batteries.
However, it is one thing to have electrical understanding and experience and quite another to have absolute belief, usually gained from some bloke at the pub.

The exception I referred to above was long ago at Woomera Range where we had a whole bank of batteries in series on charge, gassing away madly with their caps sitting loosely on top, and due to mal-operation of the charger, I caused a spark at one of the jumper clips. There was an almighty flash and roar and all the caps were projected into the roof. Didn't do the charger much good either!
I have also had a battery "explode" due to an intermittent internal connection break. So it can happen. But I think not to sealed batteries, especially in open air. And if it did, would probably only harm your eyebrows.... and maybe your underpants.


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Allan

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 13:57

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 13:57
Thank you Allan, that's as I suspected but I didn't have the knowledge to convince myself to become unconvinced.!! :-)

Cheers

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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 19:10

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 19:10
Alan, not often i disagree with you but the spike that might cause damage comes from the alternator. With the load of 2 batteries after the car is started there is x amount of current being demanded so the regulator supplies enough power to the rotor to produce x amps. When the load is suddenly reduced by disconnecting the leads there is a fraction of a fraction of a second the magnetic saturation of the rotor remains high because of the response time of the regulator, this turns what was current into a high voltage spike.
Not so relivant these days because the regs operate in excess of 2 Mhz but in the old electro mechanical days was 2Khz or less.
The only way to ensure no spike is to leave the leads connected till the battery has enough charge to restart and shut down the engine , disconnect the leads with neither engine running. Not an option if the battery is faultty.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 22:34

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 22:34
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Qldcamper,

Firstly, disconnecting the donor battery will make little difference to the alternator output current as the recipient battery is still at a low state. And the regulator, having an analogue output stage is damped such as to respond relatively slowly. No switching occurs to initiate resonance reactions or nascent spikes.

Secondly, with a discharged battery having an internal resistance of about 50 milli-ohms shunting the 12v dc line, there is no way any spike, theoretical or real, is going to appear on circuits connected to said battery.
If there was any validity to your premise then the all of the electronics in the vehicle would be blasted every time the starter motor contactor opened.

But, if it makes you feel better, then by all means do it your way.
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 03:32

Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 03:32
Spoken like a true armchair expert Allan.
That was a theory tested and proven in a tafe college workshop, weather you think it is practical is up to you but it was used as a practical demonstration many times over.
My coments come from experience not theory or google.
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Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 09:02

Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 09:02
Our 2015 LC GXL single cab ute has a buzzer for headlights on, one for the handbrake and maybe a couple of others I haven’t found yet. The headlights only go off when you open the driver’s door.

Bob

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Can't remember most of it.

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Reply By: qldcamper - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 19:13

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 19:13
Toyota had provision for 2 batteries for 24 volt starting in really cold countries, they used a series parallel solenoid not fitted here. Must have been cheaper to use 2 small batteries than one big one here.
AnswerID: 625917

Follow Up By: Ron N - Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 21:40

Saturday, Jun 01, 2019 at 21:40
Qldcamper - Two smaller batteries taking the place of one large battery often have more CCA power than the one large battery.
Plus two small batteries are easier to lift in and out of battery compartments, one at a time.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 06:54

Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 06:54
Yes Ron there are several advantages as you say but do you think the accountants working in toyota engineering care if you struggle to lift them in?
Their reasoning would be purely yen driven, cheaper to buy many batteries in pairs per car rather that many different sizes for different countries.
I have done many dual battery systems doing as has been suggested here by splitting them but once come across a cruiser that was brought in privatly from Canada i think and it was fitted with a 24 volt starter so it had to be replaced with a 12 volt one and the series parallel solenoid removed.
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Reply By: Member - Boobook - Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 07:14

Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 07:14
Someone comes across a vehicle with a flat battery, in a remote location, miles from anywhere and gives them a jump start. Must have happened millions of times.

Only on EO will that turn into a long thread with discussions from people up to 4000km away on the engine layout design, causes of Spikes, comparisons of battery arrangements with other vehicles, what could have caused it, headlight and parker designs, and the advantages and disadvantages of 2 small batteries verses one large one.

The person that got the jump start probably hasn't given it another thought and will have happy, trouble-free motoring for the next few years.







Tony
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 11:51

Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 11:51
Yep, plenty of people out there, driving around blissfully in remote areas, with no clues and even less knowledge, no spares or tools - no ability to use them even if they did have them - and they rely on someone with the knowledge, tools and spares to turn up right after they've run into trouble, and help them out - at their helpers cost.

This then enables them to drive off gaily, care-free and worry-free, until the next vehicle failure in a remote area claims their lives, and they make up more statistics.

The Aboriginals are a classic, they have mostly even lost their ability to survive in the bush, after they break down.
So now we have to provide them with brand new Troopies regularly, so they don't die in the bush.

It's like owning a fire extinguisher - you almost never use it to put out your own fire, you usually expend it, at your cost, to put out a fire caused by idiotic road behaviour by others.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 15:44

Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 15:44
It isnt only on EO it happens, all forums are similar.
I think it is called learning, a sharing of knowledge just like sitting round a camp fire having a discussion, or in a pub before everyone had google in their pockets, the topic is constantly changing as the afternoon turns into night and hours pass.

Only trouble with google is that a lot of stuff on it is written by people that only think they know what they are talking about and that stuff is read by people that are trying to teach themselves about something who then believe what they read and spread the slightly incorrect version and eventually it becomes accepted as gospel, and when someone comes along that is a specialist in a particular field suggests the correct version they are shot down by the self taught experts.

Using big words and ratteling on for pages of made up crap is convincing for people that dont know but doesnt cut it when they come across someone that is more experienced in a particular field, but they have the backing of the masses that have been accepting their almost correct crap for years.

That is what forums have evolved into.

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Follow Up By: Member - DOZER - Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 18:18

Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 18:18
wonder what they were up to in the van to flatten both batteries.....i run 3 under the bonnet of my 200, just incase both mains go flat.
b4 you bag me out, walk a mile in my shoes, then your a mile away and have my shoes :)

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Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 19:10

Sunday, Jun 02, 2019 at 19:10
DOZER - If you read post No. 899255, you'll see Duck stated, "they left their lights on" (whilst stopped at a rest area, obviously).
Leaving all your lights on for an extended period without the engine running, is a guaranteed method for not being able to start your vehicle again.

Cheers, Ron.
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