Canning Tvan change of wheel size.

Submitted: Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 17:24
ThreadID: 138475 Views:1837 Replies:6 FollowUps:14
It amazes me that people who run seemingly successful businesses cannot respond to a simple email about their product. Thanks, Track ...

Now ..I have a 2007 Canning Tvan which is currently running on 15" x 6 stud wheels. I have recently upgraded my tow vehicle and now have 16" x 5 stud Landcruiser wheels and would like to match them on my Tvan.

Do I just buy the hubs or do I need backing plates etc etc. Suppliers, please?.

Appreciate your help and advice with my thanks in advance.

Cheers
OBJ
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Reply By: David G (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 17:36

Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 17:36
Hi OBJ. I know your pain with Track.....
Until recently I had a Tvan on which I changed the wheel size from 15" to 16" Land Cruiser rims without any clearance or brake issues.

Cheers
AnswerID: 626015

Follow Up By: OBJ - Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 18:55

Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 18:55
Thanks, David.
Did you just get new hubs? Or did it have to go all the way back to backing plates?
Cheers
OBJ
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Follow Up By: Member - nickb "boab" - Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 19:49

Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 19:49
When i changed mine it was hubs only ( not tvan)
Pitty we are not in the same state , got the 5 stud hubs sitting in the shed ... lol
Cheers Nick b
VKS 737 ( 0915 )
Wish the missus was as dirty as the tailgate of my bukky ....

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Follow Up By: David G (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 21:29

Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 21:29
OBJ.

I changed nothing except the rim size. 15" off, 16" on.
No new hubs or backing plates.

David
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Reply By: RMD - Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 20:12

Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 20:12
When purchasing a Tvan all they do is fit the hubs you want with the correct stud pattern. You can do the same. The brakes and back plates will be in the same position. However, depending on the offset the axle is longer ,ie outward from the swing arm to suit the track you asked for. You will have to know the wheel offset and width of rim so the rim will fit without fouling. A bit of checking of relative positions but can be done easily.
You didn’t say why offset wheels were on the Tvan and the offset of the 5 stud ones you propose to use. That might be the deciding factor rather than rim dia. Eg. There is a big difference for a Tvan axle swing arm setup for offset of a 60 series LC rims offset and those used on an 80 series. It is a nightmare for Track to advise because they can answer you but the info provided by the owner may not allow an accurate response.
AnswerID: 626018

Reply By: tonysmc - Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 20:25

Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 20:25
Changing the hubs isn’t an issue, it’s comes down to the offset of the wheels you put on it that can create a problem and you may therefore need to replace the axle so the tyres don’t rub on the springs/chassis or overhang outside the guards.
Lay the old and new wheels on the ground and measure the distance from the ground to the back of the wheel centre. You should be able to work out from there if the wheels you want cause an issue.
AnswerID: 626020

Follow Up By: IvanTheTerrible - Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 21:08

Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 21:08
I run Landcuiser hubs on my trailer running Dmax rims. Same stud pattern and they run the same track as ny ute. If I put Landcruiser rims on they'd stick out a mile. Different offset and would run a much wider track than my ute
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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 21:11

Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 21:11
If you increase the tyre rolling diameter you will reduce brake effectiveness, so technically they will need to be re-certified to comply.
Not likely to be a technical problem, but the paperwork should be done to stay legal.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
AnswerID: 626022

Follow Up By: Member - Bigfish - Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 09:59

Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 09:59
Many thousands vehicles have larger diameter tyres fitted legally and no certifying needed Peter_n_Margaret. Why would the vehicle need to be recertified?
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FollowupID: 899676

Follow Up By: Shaker - Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 14:45

Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 14:45
In Victoria the maximum increase in diameter is limited to 15mm.
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Follow Up By: splits - Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 14:50

Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 14:50
Why would the vehicle need to be recertified?
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Putting aside any legal issues, the problem with larger diameter tyres is they increase the leverage on the brakes and the vehicle takes longer to stop.

They also increase the cornering side forces on wheel studs, bearings and even axle flanges.

One major example of axle flange failure was caused by fitting large wide tyres to the rear of little feather weight T bucket hot rods when they became popular in the late 1950s and sixties. Most of those cars used the heavy 9 inch Ford rear axle and many snapped the axle flange clean off despite these heavy axles being used in full size Ford sedans, wagons and even the F100. They were big heavy cars and utes but they did not break their axles in standard form.

That is an extreme example but unfortunately all kinds of trailers, caravans etc have considerably more wheel problems than the cars towing them. That has been well known since the early days of motoring.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bigfish - Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 15:22

Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 15:22
But it still would not need recertification...
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Follow Up By: RMD - Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 17:12

Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 17:12
Splits
That wouldn't be because the rims on the rear of rods were made with almost maximum negative offset and was twisting the axle all it's life. All the forces were well outside the designed area of where load should have been taken.

Shaker
On tyre size isn't 3% allowed as an increase in dia? on most common sizes that equates to around 24mm dia increase. Accepted by the rim and tyre associations.
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Follow Up By: IvanTheTerrible - Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 17:39

Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 17:39
May be a moot argument anyway considering most 17's are a lower profile than 16's you may find the overall diameter change may be minimal if any.
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FollowupID: 899690

Follow Up By: splits - Friday, Jun 07, 2019 at 09:20

Friday, Jun 07, 2019 at 09:20
RMD

It was most likely the huge offset that broke the axles. Unfortunately that does not change the fact that far too many trailers and vans have suffered major wheel, studs and bearing failures. Many have even snapped the end off their axles.

The first box trailer that I made was in 1963. The axle consisisted of turned down FJ Holden stub axles fitted into and welded onto the ends of a piece of water pipe from the local hardware shop.

I used it, and regularly overloaded it, for eleven years then sold it to a relative in rural NSW who did the same thing for many years and often on unsealed roads.. The axle never failed because the stub axles, hubs and wheels had been designed to work together by General Motors. It was more good luck than good management that the pipe I used was also up to the task.

The problems encounted by trailers and vans comes from design faults. Few if any manufacturers have the design and testing facilities of car manufacturers. To make matters worse, many say they will fit whatever wheels the buyer wants. If I was to buy a new van or camper trailer, I would stay with whatever wheels the manufacturer used in the hope they got it right. I would not be fitting something that I thought was better.



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FollowupID: 899705

Follow Up By: Ron N - Friday, Jun 07, 2019 at 12:10

Friday, Jun 07, 2019 at 12:10
Or you could buy a camper, 'van or trailer with Chinese axles, bearings and hubs - and hope like hell they stayed in one piece, when the going got rough.

I went along to an MDC campers "surplus inventory auction" recently and it was quite eye-opening seeing the amount of axles, hubs, brakes, bearings, and wheels, that were up for offer.

Part of the problem was obviously regular design changes in the axles, brakes, mounting plates, and hubs and bearings, that was leading to "surplus stocks" of units, that were not "current".

The second obvious feature of the sale was the sheer number of half-dismantled axles, hubs, brakes and bearings, where it appeared many units had been "cannabilised" for parts - no doubt to meet urgent demands for replacement parts, where there had been failure on a clients camper or 'van.

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 899709

Follow Up By: RMD - Friday, Jun 07, 2019 at 14:28

Friday, Jun 07, 2019 at 14:28
Ron
Why wait to see if the parts hold together in the rough stuff? They usually fail during use in the easy stuff.
The axle steel quality is rubbish, the bearings the same, coupled with hardly any lubrication and poor adjustment of bearings sees them vapourize if used anywhere.
The cannabilising of parts is only prolonging the time until the pain revisits.

The majority of people who pack grease into wheel hubs do not use sufficient grease to provide a long life of bearings. If Chinese quality bearings then the demise is almost predictable.

I once got into trouble with a foreman who claimed I used too much grease in large semitrailer hubs. I used 3 times the grease others did. Their bearings lasted 12 months and then the cost was ALL bearings in 4 large hubs + minimal grease.
My liberal use of grease, meant no replacement of costly bearings and regreased after each season of use saw the same bearings last more than 4 years and at least 4 times the distance of other grease conscious workers.
Foreman conceded, grease was good.
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FollowupID: 899717

Follow Up By: splits - Friday, Jun 07, 2019 at 15:25

Friday, Jun 07, 2019 at 15:25
Ron

The subject of poor quality Chinese products comes up constantly on net forums. The Chinese are not stupid and many of their engineers have studied in our universities. I am inclined to think the biggest problem is the Australian importers. If they want 10,000 two dollar bearings, the Chinese will make them. If they want them to be aircraft quality then that is what they will get but the price will be much higher.

I heard some prominent person talking about the rise of China on the radio a few years ago. He said we are not seeing the rise of China, we are seeing the return of China. They dominated world trade up to about about 400 years ago then withdrew into themselves. They are now coming back rapidly.

We are now seeing a steady increase in the sales of Chinese cars. I wonder if a trailer with Chinese wheel bearings will have any early problems with them if the bearings were genuine parts for a Great Wall ute or another popular Chinese car.
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FollowupID: 899720

Reply By: Phil G - Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 21:23

Wednesday, Jun 05, 2019 at 21:23
Wouldn't be too harsh on Track - they are pretty awesome if you provide the info they require.
If you currently have the 15" rims on your 2007 Canning, then I'm guessing you most likely you have the 130mm stub axle length that suits zero offset rims. You can measure the axle length as per this photo:
If your 5 stud Landcruiser is a 70series (takes zero offset) then they are compatible as far as offset goes.
Can purchase the 5 stud drums from Track in Melbourne - they used to me made by Melbourne Axle Works and came with the Tojo 14x1.5mm studs, but they no longer exist and I think you might have to purchase Alko drums which come with 9/16th studs. Try to get them with 14x1.5mm studs, same as your Landcruiser.

There are at least 3 different axle lengths for the Tvan to suit Prado offset (P30) and 100/200series IFS (P60) so you can appreciate there are heaps of variations out there. This question comes up every few weeks on the Track Trailer forum.
AnswerID: 626023

Reply By: CSeaJay - Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 10:38

Thursday, Jun 06, 2019 at 10:38
I ran 17 " wheels on my Canning of the same vintage. I did this so that I could swap the tires from van to car in an emergency.
Confirming it handled the 17" size, but noting if you run larger tires it will rub on full compression.
AnswerID: 626033

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