automatic boxes

not unless its factory will ya get that extended warranty
mechpete

Didn't include - bought the car with receipts showing where it was done and went back to the shop to discuss and they are doing it again. It's a shop in Thomastown Vic. Not going into names but they have a very good name/rep. L asked today about a trans cooler and they said no need for these type. Not interested in temp gauges - surely in this day and age one shouldn't need that type of gear? Previous owner was a lovely couple who upgraded to the disco 4 and had spent lots of $$ of TLC on it- no warranty - but wasn't expecting any - that's life with a second hand car.

You say you're not interested in a temp gauge.....why not ?
A scan gauge or similar tells you temp and many other things....a great bit of gear for people who tow.....as said, temp kills autos ( and motors ) and if the temp goes up, you either back off or possibly damage the auto !!

Gronk is correct, any auto running high temp with no cooler is making the engines, reserve of cooling vastly reduced, which means the engine is near to the limit too. When either engine or the auto or both fail, the whole rig stops for some unfathomable reason.
The Scangauge or similar WILL allow some monitoring so wiser driving can be implemented.
If overheating engine or trans, a slower speed with lower gear setting means the engine speed and cooling fan will be higher and therefore passing the fluids to be cooled through the heat exchangers more often in the same time. This means the temps will go down.

I too would highly recommend a big transmission cooler and temp gauge - just Google it there is a lot of info about trans coolers and temp gauges and changing fluids.

I have a Navara D40 auto and destroyed one gearbox and now have a new new and fitted an extra transmission cooler in addition to the factory one, a temp gauge to monitor the temps and change the transmission fluid every 20 000 km.

Karl

High temp kills manual boxes as well I had 5th gear do a bearing on a TD5 disco which by the manufacturer claims is caable of towing around 2t in 5th. A 40 deg day so lots of heat reflectting back of the road towing a 1.4t pop top, apparently the oil temp is usually 15 deg hotter around that bearing which is normal. So maybe a warning monitor could have saved me $3,500 back then.

The same ZF box that Ford uses - the Ranger uses the Ford version of the ZF and the Falcon and Territory used the ZF box.

Excuse my ignorance but what do you when temps go up? stop on the side of the road? - the mechanic said no need for a external cooler but will ask again if it can be done to the disco 3.

Did ask about using manual mode and he was of the impression is was a good idea but can't remember if you can hold it in 5th while cruising (that's what l did with our kluger (press the o/d button to turn it off) with a van and also what l did with our cruiser with a van - didn't use 5th gear just kept it in 4th and sit back and wait......... it was a 1hz! - car is at the shop at present.
Ta for the replies..

In a D3 the car will tell you in the form of a dash display if the the gearbox is getting too hot and you have no choice but to wait by the side of the road until the car tells you are able to proceed.

The D3 has a good transmission cooler as part of the radiator and most do not add an extra cooler but some have also added and extra one.

On the road you just tow in drive and let the gearbox do its thing. If in tight hilly areas it is better to go to Sport mode as it changes the shift points and hangs on longer in each gear. Don't compare your D3 with the Toyota as far as gearbox usage is concerned - they are different vehicles with different gearboxes and require different management - if you use the LR technique with the Toyota you may cause issues, and if you follow the Toyota technique with the LR you will not get the best out of it.

If there gearbox had failed after 80,000km then I would say it is an "abnormal" occurance or poor repair/maintenance.

Jack, there are a couple of ways to reduce temp in the box.

One as you said is to stop, another way is to reduce speed if the vehicle is working hard. On hills make sure the torque converter is locked up and not producing to much heat, this can normally be attained by using manual mode and dropping a gear, the box should drop gears earlier and will maintain those lower gears, it just won't change back up gears, so you will have to manually do that or shift back into drive mode. If you are on mountainous tracks at slow speed use low range, often the engine has heaps of torque in high range to pull up the hills, but the torque converter is slipping and the box is heating.

Best to get plug in temp gauge read the box temp.. They just plug into the obd2 port.

Heavy trucks have all the temps displayed engine, gearbox and diffs because often you have to back off with high ambient temps and heavy loads.

Ta Robert

Not overly fussed about the rebuild, just that it started straight after l had it serviced. The mechanic has been exceptional in his communication and explaining everything to me-he tells me the disco 4's aren't much different/better with towing - he does only European makes not toyota's and the like, hence why l'm trying to find out if the other makes suffer the same issues with long term towing . l didn't pay for the first rebuild but l'm up for about 4500-5k.

The disco's are awesome value for money and l can't justify the cost of an older 100 series or paying so much for a 200 series, looked at few but the resale/toyota tax is outstanding!-l'm still a Toyota guy at heart -you can't beat their reliability over the long term, just that the disco is so darn comfortable and competent but as the disco doesn't do alot of kms-sits in the shed as the second car-holiday car - our corolla/my work van does most of the running around.

l also recently had the radiator removed and cleaned out at the same time just for preventative measures, as the gearbox is cooled by the radiator also.

Such is life! Thanks...

Robert1660
A simple drain and refill, as you put it, is only a "part dilution" of contamination and degradation of the auto fluid. Because surface deposits remain and any metallic particles on the magnet will remain in the box with just a drain and refill. Hardly worth it. Like swimming in the non urinating end of the local pool.
Unless a fluid change of all fluid exiting the converter is achieved and caught in a drum and only fresh fluid administered to the auto will there be a significant cost/life benefit. Most places only do what you are having done and charge for a fluid change which it is not.
Pan off and clean, new filter and THEN refill and exit of all fluid is the only sure way to have the best possible outcome.

yep, thought of that - that would be the obvious solution.. Proper oil used -all mechanics agree - "life guard 6" if my memory serves me correct - it's the right stuff.
Still thinking the toyota's make a better box...... but appreciate the replies - there're alot of discos out there can't all be bad - just how it is.

To have a problem after 80,000km and now having a rebuild of the same box is NOT "how it is" at all. Almost inexcusable.
There has to be a particular reason or set of conditions which are present to cause the issue, and as you said many Discos are all OK. Unless you saw the correct fluid poured into the transmission you do not know what fluid is in there after the service despite a consensus of mechanics agreeing. The fact the box is now being worked on means no "lifeguard at all" to me.
Many boxes rebuilt in Australia use clutches from a dubious/lower quality than OE overseas supplier of clutch plates, trans shops use them and not OE parts. Many of the ones I rebuilt, the person I did the work for, if possible, bought damaged autos from Japan, most were Japanese origin, and we used the low KM internals instead of the recognized standard rebuild issue done in OZ with maybe sus parts. Never had any problem with the low km, used plates and internals.

"Finally, the "sealed for life" transmission is a marketing stunt, which system guarantees a short life for the transmission."

No where does LR claim this gearbox is 'sealed for life' - if you look at the service schedule it indicates 240,000km or 10 years (yes far too long) but adds this qualifier.

"The maintenance items listed, are those recommended for vehicles operating under normal driving, road and climatic conditions. More frequent attention may be necessary if the vehicle is subject to stop/start operation, extremes of temperature, dusty conditions, off road driving or frequent towing of trailers. "

Definitely not sealed for life.

Ozziecruiser, this previous ExplorOz discussion has a number of Disco 3 owners stating they were told the transmission was "sealed for life" - but then LR changed their tune after problems with constant heavy towing started appearing all-too-often, and then advised that as a "service enhancement", the transmission oil needed to be changed regularly.

Disco 3 transmission problems - 2009

I see, dusty conditions mentioned here and at other times as a service issue for "sealed for life" transmissions. Seeing most if not all run the auto before a transfer case, how does "dusty conditions" play any part in the servicing. If the dust can get in then fluid can be pouring out. No part of an auto's system is subjected to dust. They do have a breather filter for expansion reasons. Off road usually is easier on an auto because low range is being used, only hauling through sand will elevate the temp, measures to control temps is easy to fit. Therefore, off road is usually a reduced factor, not an increase.

People may have been told that they are sealed for life - but told by people who have no idea who have probably read it on forums like this.

The service is timing is as I indicated above - taken straight off the service sheet from 2005 so has not changed.

Thanks for the replies guys - starting to get off topic here l feel.... anything that says sealed for life is a pot of shit, my opinion/old oil never ends well, l'm no mechanic but know too many instances where it hasn't ended well- end of story, it's not the discussion here. l'm just after owners of other brands of autos and their experience with autos and l'm starting to think it's just part of the game with newer autos in general.

Won't be towing anything over 2 tonne with my disco again -period and will probably look around for a troopie/100 series manual once the kids leave home and l don't need the extra 5 seats.

Thanks again, guys!

Go to www.aulro.com and ask your question there where there are plenty of people who are familiar with these gearboxes - from experience not the internet.

Hi Ron
One would think the ZF gearbox’s are a great unit.
I was reading about the 8HP70 it seems they are in the Maserati, Rolls Royce. Iveco Truck just to name few.
They must be good to stand up to the punishment and horsepower of the above vehicles.

Cruiser 3 - There's nothing basically wrong with most ZF engineering - but the problem is that marketing and sales and vehicle design people interfere with manufacturing engineers recommendations.

All autos have a recommended maximum torque capability, and recommended oil change periods and recommended lubricants.
But sales, marketing and vehicle design engineers then try to extract the maximum from transmissions, by installing transmissions with minimal spare capacity, as regards torque capacity and oil capacity.

Then these sales and marketing people decide they can upgrade GCM's to gain a greater edge in sales.
Then vehicle owners decide they can run those transmissions in operating conditions that the original engineers never considered - extreme dust, deep water, high ambient temperatures, and heavy towing loads over vast distances.

Most Europeans are staggered at the vast distances in Australia. You could go through 10 countries in Europe in the distance we go from one State to another.
Perth to Adelaide is the approximately same distance as Rotterdam to Athens - and you're at highway speed all the way, Perth to Adelaide, unlike Rotterdam to Athens.

Then - ZF issue "licences to build" on their transmissions to other companies such as Ford.
But Ford are notorious for "cheapening" the construction materials and methods in anything they build, as the bean counters rule inside Ford.

Thus, Ford utilise pressings instead of castings, thermoplastic and nylon components instead of aluminium, reduce the number of components to save money, reduce the thickness of materials to save money - it goes on and on.

As a result, performance and life of transmissions then starts to suffer - particularly when the mode of use becomes severe.
The manufacturers don't really care too much if you blow a transmission long before you think it should have gone - it's more money to them, as they then get to sell more transmissions and parts.

Cheers, Ron.

Torque converter slippage is governed by the design of the torque converter vanes, and the speed that the torque converter operates at.

In the old days, torque converter specifications were supplied with a "stall ratio" number.
This is the maximum amount of torque a torque converter can produce when stalled - because torque converters multiply torque.
You rarely see "stall ratio" mentioned today, it seems it's no longer an important number, as it once was.

You can have "sloppy" torque converters with a high stall ratio, where there's a substantial amount of slippage, with a vastly-increased amount of torque output - as compared to "stiff" torque converters with low stall ratios, where slippage is minimised, and torque multiplication is reduced.
"Sloppy" torque converters will produce more heat because of their increased amount of slippage.

It's all to do with turbine and stator vane angles and shape, and the amount of oil recirculation within the torque converter.
Most vehicles today have relatively "stiff" torque converters to try and reduce slippage and heat buildup.

But - the operating speed of the torque converter is also important, as regards slippage.
As the RPM of a torque converter increases, slippage is substantially reduced - until, at maximum RPM, slippage is relatively minimal.
As the RPM of a torque converter is reduced, slippage increases, torque output increases - and heat buildup increases.

As most people tend to try to keep engine RPM's lower to improve fuel economy, they are generally operating their torque converters at a higher rate of slippage, than they would be, if the engine RPM's were much higher.

This is where lock-up torque converters come into their own. When towing at highway speeds, lock-up TC's eliminate slippage completely, and thus reduce heat buildup.
But accordingly, a locked up TC when towing at highway speed, places more strain on the motor - so this is the reason that the TC unlocks, once the towing load on the motor becomes much higher, as in climbing long steady grades.

Steep grades make it fairly obvious, that there's a need to unlock the TC or change back - but long steady grades, where the slope doesn't seem all that great, impose considerable load on engines and drivetrains, because the load increase is subtle, but very steady, and leads to rapidly-increasing heat load on the engine and transmission.

Cheers, Ron.

Wow, ok. Hence why no overdrive/keep it in 4th gear with a manual. Was just watching a you tube video on explaining manual gearboxes in 100-105 series, showing the size of the 5th gear and why they fail and why the turbo box is much stronger. my 105 manual was ok but l just left it in 4 th all the time whilst towing 2.5.tonne of caravan and put a brick on the pedal - ha ha.
Again thanks..

Those Patrols seem like a mighty fine thing - a mate has a GU/GQ? the newer shape with a 4.2. non turbo and he can't kill it - definitely stronger in the driveline from what l've heard.
For the extra effort of pressing an extra pedal a manual will be my next choice - you just get lazy when you have an auto - the disco is a fine 4wd, just alot more things that can go wrong-will miss if l end up selling it. My wife likes driving it rather than having to drive the tractor as she called the cruiser - it was compared to the disco.

Read and understood,Ron. Great info!. what mine was doing was slipping out of lockup in top gear even on a level road at 100-110kkm/hr. Just a quick rev up and the back to normal. Mech. said at lockup there is a clutch faceing on the converter which does the lockup and this can wear over time causing it to slip. This was replaced with a wider facing to spread wear load. Have had no further problems.

Pedro the swift
The lock up clutch facings cannot be replaced in a sealed torque converter. They are all made and welded together during manufacture. Usually, most times, nearly always, the torque converter is simply replaced with a new one. Only by setting it in a lathe and cutting the unit open at the seam can ANY work be done to repair a torque converter. There is no way to easily replace any internal part of a torque converter. Unless they did the above, bigger lockup clutch plates could not have been fitted. Be aware slipping of the torque converter is not the same as slipping of the lockup clutch OR slipping of the autos normal gear train clutches. 3 different concepts there.

Apparently cutting the torque converter open is exactly what was done. The mech. doing the work explained it to me.

Thanks for that - i will be asking the mechanic a few more questions when l pick it up later this week - rather keep than sell it, just want to know how to treat it when towing with it and not continually be worrying about it when it next shudders.... The previous owner did all the kms towing until l had it serviced.
Thanks

And everyone one on here has advised you how to tow with a Toyota gearbox not a D3 ZF.

Learn how to drive the ZF not the Toyota box - as I suggested go to AULRO and ask and learn on there.

OzzieCruiser - Would that be the AULRO section of the forum, where they have a 60 page discussion on the ins and outs, faults and foibles, woe stories and glee stories - all on the Disco 3 & 4 auto transmission?? [;-)

Disco 3 & 4 transmission - AULRO

Wow. If that’s the brains trust, god help you all. I hope by page 60 they worked out that the Ford boxes run different tranny oil to the zf’s.

This discussion is getting heated a bit like my poor old box did.............

It's all good that LR forum, l just wanted to know how other brands of autos faired with towing. I know Landys are far from perfect and neither is anything in life, l'll ask the shop what habits to get into, to help the box tow a bit easier and go from there.

Again thanks for all your replies..

Yes Ron that is correct but of course you have only picked one line of discussion when there is heaps more threads based on nearly 15 years of experience and changing experiences - at least Jack will learn the pros and cons and how to use the vehicle from people's personal experiences rather than arm chair warriors with Mr Google forming their experience base.

From ZF web page
Remanufacturing
Resource-conserving remanufacturing of used ZF units such as clutches, torque converters or transmissions. Assembly and testing processes as in volume production.

ta for that - they are based in nsw (if that's the same one your're thinking of) - bit far to take a car and/or gearbox. Had a chat to them just for curiosity sake in regards to towing with them - they just said to check your owners manual as each application of each gearbox is different and has different demands depending on what car it's in -blah blah blah - they are right but no definitive answer though but l guess they can't say anything that would bite them in the bum - so to speak...

Already read the owners manual when l bought the car.

I haven't towed anything heavy with the car except for a camper trailer 1.3 tonne to qld and our old caravan- 2Tonne for a bout 50 kms before we sold it just to get an idea what it was like to tow with compared to our old 105 cruiser (with air bags at rear)- night and day! Handling was noticeably better. Nice not to have to put on the WDH either with the air bag suspension which is an awesome bit of kit.

The place to rebuilt ZF gearboxes in Melbourne is A & B Automotive Remanufacturing Pty Ltd in Dandenong. I believe they are the authorised ZF service agents in Melbourne but you will need to confirm that.

They are familiar with the D3.

Perfect Mark, thanks for that.
Don't have it now? looking at the photo - how did you find the disco overall. It's a mixed bag with me -don't know what l'd replace it with - dollar for value wise. Such a nice/quiet ride but here in Ballarat nobody wants to touch it (auto /radiator clean out)- have a good indie that did the work that only does LR but if he is unable to fix them - not sure - no way l'm going to a dealer, which there is one now in Ballarat.

Disco was best car I ever drove, except when things went wrong. My problem was I blew the water housing on top of the motor and overheated the motor. To cut a long story short it was my fault and then it used water but we could only work out it was burning it through a cracked head. I traded and now have a Ford Everest. Not quite as good but tows beautifully. My wife says if I didn’t break the D3 we would still have it now.

Mentioned this to the mechanic about the old school autos that you mentioned and he totally agreed. Might have to go back to the old kingswoods/valiants v8's.... l did mention/show a suburban with a 454 auto to the better half and no reply - at all............
Classic reg-sits in the shed except for trips away, 4 x 4, drinks like a fish - who cares if the reliability is there. Any bloke is happy to work on them.

Might just roll up with one and face the music.

Thanks Swampy - l have been looking at older 4 x 4's

Going completely off topic - have you seen a company called ICON (derelict/toyo old 4wd's)- a yank making some magnificent cars.
If money were no object..

Swampy.
Good relative info there. Most people have never dismantled and repaired autos and only go on mechanics viewpoints. Most mechanics have never pulled one apart either and don't know how they work and usually only go on hearsay unfortunately.. Many here quote what the mechanic says or backs but many mechanics are not knowledgeable enough to be advising their customers, who HAVE to believe them because they are the perceived experts.

I like you comment about the building of trans to suit$$$$$$.
A Holden traumatic looked the same outside but had different internals to suit the budget and the engine power.
The only reason the posters auto began to suddenly slip/ shudder is, it was filled with the wrong fluid. The transmission didn't suddenly alter, all after a service. Very common occurrence.

I can only go by the invoice and the rep of the mechanic, which he has a very good rep here in town. In the end, l have a reco'd box but yes the wrong fluid seems to be the only reason for it - no one can give me a definitive reason for it (what a suprise) but it does and has happened before to other cars with similar boxes. That;s life, no point harbouring on about it. No one will ever know why........

Manual box is next and l can do the service myself-easy.

Jack
Putting it simply,
If the auto is/was working correctly before the service and not afterwards then the fluid is a suspect. Of course they will diagnose a rebuild, which may or may not be needed. However, IF they decided then and there to drain and flush out the serviced fluid and allowed you to drive it carefully WITH the correct fluid in there and possibly even flush that out fully and refill again with correct fluid, it may have restored the performance to the same as when took it there. You were not given the opportunity of that option. Yes a few litres of fluid, but quite a bit cheaper than a rebuild/changeover unit. Maybe the box might have to be replaced down the track, any box might have to, even a rebuilt one. I always think of saving a dollar while retaining reliability. You accepted the course of action, possibly many would robustly discuss the sudden change of the auto to achieve a more positive outcome.

thanks dozer! precisely the info l was after.......