Are our road laws a joke between states ??????

Submitted: Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 12:01
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Hi all ,
As most are aware the ""L"" driver being fined shows up the absolute joke the differing road rules between states . Some vehicles cannot be registered in some states and others require reapplication for re engineering when changing states .

Australia is suppose to be a national road system with a national modification rules and national licensing regulations .

This virus has demonstrated how very far away from national governance we are .
A BLOODY long way !!!

The common sense national regulations work the state based bullshit that overrides and overcomplicates . Politicians announce these rules [who trusts a polly] and the coppers enforce these rules like drones , without thought . Its no wonder certain sections of road users are disgusted .
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Reply By: Member - Bigfish - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 14:17

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 14:17
The girl on "L" plates got fined because of social distance and essential leave rules. Not normal road rules. Like you, I agree...we need a national approach to road rules, licensing and registration..
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Reply By: Dave(NSW) - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 14:33

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 14:33
If you think that's bad try being an interstate truck driver
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Reply By: dindy - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 16:25

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 16:25
So the police 'drones' should not do their jobs properly because you've identified inconsistancies in legislation across various jurisdictions? What would you have them do?
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Follow Up By: smwhiskey - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 17:28

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 17:28
Actually its a wonder that the police can even be expected to do their job properly. Perfect example is the P Plate rule differences between QLD and NSW. (particularly Red Ps)

Might have changed now but when my eldest was 17 the Max speed limit for red P platers in NSW was 90km/h. In Qld, its whatever the posted limit is (so up to 110km/h).

But the law was such that the respective speed limits are based on the state where your licence is issued....not the state that you're actually driving in. So a Qlder in NSW can still drive at 110 but the NSW P plater in Qld must still do a maximum of 90.

How the hell is a cop in southern NSW (where one presumes this situation isn't an everyday event like it would be in the Tweed) ) supposed to remember this particular rule and not incorrectly book the Qld driver for being 20 over the limit?
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Follow Up By: Hoyks - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 19:06

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 19:06
You drive to the conditions imposed by the authority in the state that your permit was issued, so its not a problem. It is amusing riding with my daughter on her L's, rounding up caravans on the Pacific Highway

It has worked in my favour though, I had Qld L's for the bike, so should have only ridden with a fully licensed rider, but was over the boarder and got away with it for a year before getting around to doing the test.

I'm sure the cops can cope with what are essentially minor differences between the states.
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Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 00:21

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 00:21
smwhiskey, Victoria is the same as QLD P platers can do the posted limit
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 08:33

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 08:33
I believe that you are bound by the laws of the state you are currently in, not by the laws of the state your license was issued in. Of course, I could be wrong, but I believe that is how most other road laws are applied.

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Follow Up By: Hoyks - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 08:47

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 08:47
No, you are bound by the conditions of the permit.

"Driving interstate with a Queensland driver licence

If you are driving interstate, you still have to adhere to the conditions of your Queensland licence.

You will also have to obey the rules of the Australian jurisdiction you are driving in. To find out if any other conditions/restrictions will apply to you when travelling interstate, contact the transport authority for the Australian jurisdiction that you will be driving in."
https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Licensing/Driving-interstate-or-overseas.aspx
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Follow Up By: Member - McLaren3030 - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 09:04

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 09:04
Hoyks,

I think you have misinterpreted the statement. I believe it means that you cannot exceed the conditions of your Qld issued license, if the state you are in has a higher standard. Also, if the rules of the state jurisdiction are that a P plater can only travel at 90 kph, then that is the speed that your P plater cannot exceed, regardless of where your license was issued. That is the “rule of the Australian Jurisdiction you are driving in”.

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Follow Up By: Hoyks - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 10:05

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 10:05
No, because the permit/licence allows you to drive the vehicle and may stipulate a bunch of conditions, it is then up to you to follow the road rules for the state that you're in.

Conditions may include only driving an auto, wearing glasses, having a medical certificate, having a curfew, only driving to work, there are a few, but a reduced speed limit for learners and P platers isn't one of them.

My daughter has not long got her P's, I was working in NSW, driving back and forward to Qld and getting her to do some of the trips. 100hrs in the passenger seat, so I made sure I was all over it.

"Learner and provisional licence holders
There are no specified reduced speed limits in Queensland for learner or provisional licence holders. You should drive according to the speed limit and the conditions for the road on which you are driving."
https://www.publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/5c6d042b-2aa3-4755-bf88-0cd2015889c4/resource/796607ec-c458-4955-80e2-2b7f551079c7/fs_download/00900_trb_yktd_book-2019-web_27-03-19_lowres-copy.pdf

"Speed limits
An interstate or overseas learner, when driving in NSW, must not drive/ride faster than the posted speed limit or any lesser maximum speed limit if one is applied to your licence by your home state or country."
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/licence/visiting-nsw.html
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Reply By: Member - David M (SA) - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 16:57

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 16:57
When "if"we get on top of this Covid-19 might be a good time for some serious changes Swampy.
Get rid of the state governments. This nation will never reach it's full potential
with them.
Get rid of the ABC. "Except Landline"
Get rid of the Unions.They lost their purpose and credibility a long time ago.
Dave
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Follow Up By: Gramps - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 17:31

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 17:31
Time to put your hard hat on or duck.

Regards
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 18:43

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 18:43
Yeah Gramps, That could be bumpy ride....
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 23:36

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 23:36
I like the ABC. The commercial channels on radio and TV are complete and utter drivel.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 19:19

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 19:19
Your trust in profit-driven media and some employers/businesses and their political supporters is heart-warming David. Others would probably consider your opinion to be extremely naive and/or ignorant - including, for example, the thousands of underpaid workers whose fate was recently exposed not by Murdoch, not by government organisations set up (in part) for the purpose, but by unions and the combined investigative reporting resources of those "lefties" (roflmao) NINE - fka Fairfax - in collaboration with the ABC.

If you think Landline is the only worthwhile product from the ABC then maybe this is the perfect time to broaden your horizons, and perspective. For example you'll be hard-pressed to find better radio than "CONVERSATIONS"- also available as podcasts. I defy even the most hardened conservative to find left/right bias in that great program, although I concede that some minds are so conditioned that they assume bias even where it obviously doesn't exist. I highly recommend Rake for a good larf if you haven't seen it, or Newton's Law if you're a fan of the fab Claudia Karvan. You might catch some of them on Iview if you're lucky. Suffice to say that the list of quality ABC TV and radio programs is longer than the list of tax evading companies operating with impunity in this country (boom boom), and that's quite a feat.
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 22:22

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 22:22
Naive/Ignorant. Bit cutting there Bazooka,but written like a true lefty/greeny
The mention of underpaid workers always brings Bill Shorten to mind for some reason.A fine upstanding Union man/leader. It's always good to see the ABC and the Unions in collaboration, gives me hope for the future. I'm just waiting for them to do an open " in depth"story on the Industry super funds. Little bit murky in there if they dig deeper than last time.
Thought you would be more of a The Drum/4 Corners than Conversations.
As for Rake or Newton's I would put them in the same category as Benny Hill.
If you know of any companies evading tax in this country I suggest you contact the ATO ( boom boom) Don't know why I put that in. Seemed the thing to do:)
Any ways, lets have a look at the Unions involvement in the massive loss of industry/jobs in this country.Steel works,Holdens , all the way back to Ansett.
Take a bit of time off from watching Rake and have a look at the EBA's insisted on by the Union. Even the CFMEU took a deep breath.
Does what you would call "the big end of town" ( thanks Bill) need to be hauled over the coals? Of course it does.
Dave.Ex Union Rep
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 11:59

Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 11:59
Apologies to swampy.
--------------------------------------------------------

"like a true lefty/greeny" Dave? Sounds like something from an IPA song sheet but in my experience those labels are usually a true reflection of an ideologically-bound conservative. I'm surprised you didn't get socialist in there somewhere. Truth be known I'd be proud to be called a Greenie but that would be doing real Greenies like many farmers, capitalists, economists, scientists and ordinary Aussies making a real contribution and impact a great disservice.

Seems to me the choices wrt media are stark. There's intelligent well-researched and argued commentary, and then there's News Corp. I'd refer you to the annual media surveys which ask about trust, bias etc but I think the shock might be too much on top of this pandemic.

Seeing as how you brought it up, how did the RC into the unions and your mates attempts to shoot Shorten down go? In respect of nailing particular unions and individuals along with their unlawful/disgraceful conduct it turned out to be an expensive and obviously tainted fizzer. We deserved better. A community and government actually concerned about corrupt and thuggish practice would have had very wide terms of reference, chosen an independent Commissioner, and included big business in its probes. As for Shorten - I was a detractor until I saw some of his community meetings and the progressive policies Labor took to the last election. After seeing Albo's efforts to date I now know why the parliamentary Labor Party chose Shorten.

The numerous companies avoiding tax using a range of measures are well-known to the Tax Dept, politicians and many informed and concerned Aussies Dave. Daresay after we come out of quarantine and face the enormous national debt challenge a few more complacent and ignorant citizens might also finally take some interest. I'd suggest they start at tax concessions granted to gas producers by Howard and Costello - at a cost of $90B to the national coffers.

About a third of all big companies pay zero tax in this country iirc. A little online searching and reading will help you find them. You might for example ask yourself how the privatised Sydney Airport managed no tax on its billion dollar earnings in at least the first ten years while other privately owned airports such as Melb and Auckland did. The trick there was/is to keep the company in debt and its financing costs high. All quite legal of course. Naive doesn't begin to describe anyone who thinks that large companies like SA with many million/billions of turnover paying no tax is reasonable. Companies have used and will continue to use all sorts of tax avoidance techniques until laws are tightened. The Tories did that to some extent in the UK with their so-called "google tax" and even our Lib and Labour govts have made small steps towards fixing rorts such as profit shifting and transfer pricing. The list of large, zero and near zero taxpaying companies should you bother to find it will show there's a very long way to go.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 16:45

Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 16:45
Bazooka, and apologies to Swampy also, you missed one.

When the current government tried to let the banks get control of the industry based superannuation.

Glad that fell on its head with the banking royal Commission as the union based funds are way better performers than the others.

BTW. the next labour prime minister is not even even been elected to parliament yet.

Nuf said no more poly ticks.
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 17:37

Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 17:37
"union based funds are way better performers than the others."
Dig a little deeper Eagle.
Cut and paste from the FIN and my last comment.

The performance of a few large funds hides the chronic underperformance of a multitude of 33 sub-scale union funds –which explains why every "compare the pair" union fund campaign uses selective averages which may not compare apples with apples. These funds collectively manage $94 billion in retirement savings.
Minister Kelly O'Dwyer is right to challenge the assumption that members of union funds must "stand by and watch as their retirement savings are spent on straight-out political advertising, or dubious sponsorships of union congresses, or on superannuation liaison officers who are in fact union officials being paid out of super funds".

Members being shafted by their Reps ?
Dave.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Monday, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:36

Monday, Apr 13, 2020 at 10:36
I'll say no more, from 2019.

ANZ and AMP named as worst super fund providers in Australia for their high fees and poor returns.
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Reply By: Notso - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 17:15

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 17:15
Ah, yes, the perennial question! Unfortunately Australia is a Federation of Sovereign States and as such the states have control over various aspects of our lives. Can you imagine being a national company trying to comply with the multitude of laws that impinge on our daily business.

Unfortunately, it would require majority of Voters in a Majority of States as well as an overall majority to change things. So given the size of various egos around Aus, I don't think anything is going to change anytime soon.
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Reply By: OBJ - Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 19:45

Friday, Apr 10, 2020 at 19:45
Our entire Constitution is a joke. The original plan for Federation was a US styled government arrangement. Forrest got his nose out of j oint because he thought WA might be disadvantaged and h eld the rest of the country to ransom for his idea of Federated states. That is why we have the debacle now .. different rules and laws, duplicated services, and at one stage a heap of different rail gauges.

That is why many people now are calling for the abolition of States. But you get the bogans who don't want it because there will be no State of Origin.

So, Swampy, you are correct., they are a joke. And nothing will be done.

As a side issue .. under our Constitution I understand the Northern Territory has the legal right to both own, test and use nuclear weapons. I got this snippet from a young law student who was studying the Constitution as part of his law degree. I think most law students have to do it, but this guy was interesting to have at a c amp fire. I have not read the Constitution to verify his claim.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 21:28

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 21:28
I'll preface my comment with the observation that almost nothing is absolutely certain under the Constitution until it's tested in the High Court OBJ. That said, although I haven't studied the Constitution in any detail, I doubt your law student's view is accurate simply because ultimately "Defence", "Foreign Affairs" etc are (fairly) specifically federal responsibilities under the Constitution. Additionally, the Northern Territory (and the ACT for that matter) is fundamentally less independent in respect to its rights/legislative powers than the States are. The Fed govt can overrule NT law and can and does legislate for the Territory - a recent example being euthanasia laws iirc. One thing the Constitution states clearly is that where Commonwealth and State laws conflict, Commonwealth law prevails.

It's a very complex issue but there are plenty of reasons to abolish the States and at least as many to keep them imo. Thirty years ago when politicians were less dogmatic I may have thought otherwise. The overriding factor for me is the declining quality and uncompromising ideology of many of our federal MPs (both sides). Personally I'm grateful for the buffers that States and Territories provide even if I often don't agree with their policies or politics. Governments, both Fed and State, need to be regularly turned over and turned out.
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Reply By: Kenell - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 14:37

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 14:37
Hey Swampy I think your post has been vindicated by the responses with their varying considered and conflicting opinions on how the laws operate. I agree that in this day of mobilisation it is a debacle. The roundabout rules particularly in Qld have been debated long and hard on here and are particularly dangerous for interstaters. The one that I found really dangerous though was the overtaking lane position in NSW. In Vic oncoming traffic has a double line when there is an overtaking lane in place. Last year whilst in NSW I was following a semi and as we approached a reasonably steep hill he started de gearing so I indicated to pass him but as I pulled out a semi coming the other way also pulled out to overtake a car. They were on a single downhill lane with only a broken line separating them from the overtaking lane. Now I was far enough back to be able to return but imagine if I had been closer to the vehicle I was passing before I pulled out. The power of a fully laden semi coming downhill at me with my camper in tow.
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 16:39

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 16:39
"The roundabout rules particularly in Qld have been debated long and hard on here and are particularly dangerous for interstaters. "

Here is the clearly explained roundabout rule in Qld.

The written rule is identical in NSW - in fact, I think is written the same way in all states - that is, there is NO MENTION of giving way to the right in the rule. Just give way to a vehicle already in the roundabout.

That could be a vehicle on your left. The video in the link explains it clearly.

But if you're the vehicle on the left and you apply the rule, prepare to be T-boned and the victim of ignorant road rage because everyone, incorrectly, believes the rule is " give way to the right".



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Follow Up By: Kenell - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 16:52

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 16:52
I think you'll find Frank P that in Qld you have to indicate as you leave the roundabout even if you are proceeding straight ahead. As you have said you only have to yield right of way to any vehicle already in the roundabout nothing about giving way to the right. As far as indicating is concerned the true test should be what you would do if the roundabout was removed. If proceeding straight through (second exit) do nothing but if you are taking first or third exits indicate accordingly. In all other states as far as I am aware anyone with a left indicator on is taking the first exit ie turning left not proceeding straight ahead.
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Follow Up By: Hoyks - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 17:30

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 17:30
If you read the NSW and QLD road rules, in relation to roundabouts, they are pretty much word for word. You only have to indicate when turning left and right, going straight ahead its not strictly required, the wording is 'if practicable', although on big roundabouts it is advisable.

"118 Giving a left change of direction signal when leaving a roundabout

(1) If practicable, a driver driving in a roundabout must give a left change of direction signal when leaving the roundabout.
(2) The driver must stop giving the change of direction signal as soon as the driver has left the roundabout."

NSW Legislation


"118 Giving a left change of direction signal when leaving a roundabout

(1)If practicable, a driver driving in a roundabout must give a left change of direction signal when leaving the roundabout.
(2)The driver must stop giving the change of direction signal as soon as the driver has left the roundabout."
Qld Legislation
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 17:31

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 17:31
Kenell,

" I think you'll find Frank P that in Qld you have to indicate as you leave the roundabout even if you are proceeding straight ahead. "
Yes, as in other states.

The " Video of signals at roundabouts" says and shows that if proceeding straight ahead, do not signal when entering the roundabout. Then as you approach your exit, signal left. NSW says do that as you pass the exit before yours. That tells vehicles waiting beyond your exit that they don't have to wait for you.

NSW has the same rules and so do other states that I've driven in. NSW als has the proviso to signal your exit "when practicable" because some roundabouts are too small to do it the way it's described.

" In all other states as far as I am aware anyone with a left indicator on is taking the first exit ie turning left not proceeding straight ahead."
Correct. You only indicate left when entering the roundabout if you intend to take the first exit. Otherwise don't indicate left until you are approaching your exit. NSW says do that as you pass the exit before yours.
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 19:10

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 19:10
I've lost count of the number of times a dummy has travelled around a roundabout with their left blinker on. They'll actually exit at one stage or another I suppose.
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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 19:13

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 19:13
Hello - no idea what the rules are for roundabouts in other states but I would find it hard to believe that you dont have to indicate when going "straight ahead" thorough a roundabout in any state.

It's a circle so hard to go straight ahead anyway and the purpose of indicating is to advise other road users of your intentions. Other road users will have no idea where you entered the round about (you know you are going staight ahead but no one else does) so if you dont indicate prior to leaving they will assume you are continuing to another exit. Its pretty easy, as a minimum, just indicate left when leaving. Well thats what I do - can't see how I am confusing anyone.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 19:36

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 19:36
Kenell, there are not much difference in the rules for roundabouts in all our states. I suggest you have a look at the rules for your state and then compare it with Qld.

Greg the explorer is onto it.


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Follow Up By: Kenell - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 20:30

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 20:30
The point of the original post and my response is again vindicated. There aren't vast chasms of differences between states on the roundabout rules but the differences that exist are relevant and end up creating a culture. Words like "where practicable" etc make all the difference. If we had a true national code such differences wouldn't exist and the examples respondents have highlighted would all be the same rather than similar.
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Follow Up By: Hoyks - Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 20:52

Saturday, Apr 11, 2020 at 20:52
NSW and QLD are exactly the same. I quoted the text from the legislation from both states.

Indicate left if turning left as you approach, indicate right if turning right as you approach, going straight ahead don't indicate.

Indicate left as you leave. On really small roundabouts you might be lucky to get 1 flash before leaving, so that isn't really practical for indicating your intention.
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Follow Up By: Gordon B5 - Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 10:10

Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 10:10
I've read this a few times now, a local constable here in SA I was talking to once explained it to me as we have National road rules but it is up to the states to interpret them and thats why we have lawyers and depending on findings by the courts thats how they are interpreted. not my idea his.
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 10:26

Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 10:26
Assuming that a person is turning left because their left blinker is going can and has lead to fatal consequences.
Dave.
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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 11:14

Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 11:14
Dave, that can happen on any intersection anywhere, so roundabouts can't be singled out.

Better to at least have some clue what the other vehicle is doing, because if you don't the roundabout fails to do what it was designed for. Traffic flow.







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Reply By: Bazooka - Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 14:00

Sunday, Apr 12, 2020 at 14:00
Can't recall exactly how THIS QLD STUFF UP panned out but it's a classic example of what you said swampy. From memory the Minister backtracked but where did that leave owners who were fined etc? I remember reading that after the outcry the Minister claimed that interstate vehicles could be driven legally on QLD roads as long as they were compliant in their home states but - according to reports - that's not how QLD Transport and police operated during the crackdown.
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Reply By: Alan H11 - Thursday, Apr 23, 2020 at 07:16

Thursday, Apr 23, 2020 at 07:16
I have to say that one of the things which was a challenge in visiting Australia for a long trip in 2019 was to find that the laws varied from state to state. This in itself is not a big issue, since (as noted) Australia has chosen to be a federation of states, similar to Canada for example, where there are different road rules in different provinces.

The challenge was finding out what the rules are... it was a bit of a worry to pass a state boundary and have no information readily available on what the rules are in that state. The "Travel Safely in Australia" leaflet is good, but makes no mention in its advice to drivers of the fact that the rules are not the same everywhere in the country.
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