IFS and its bad wrap.

Submitted: Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 19:31
ThreadID: 14067 Views:3291 Replies:18 FollowUps:41
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IMO unless your big on competition events, seriouse rock crawling and or cross country work IFS is just fine.

I go just as far in my IFS cruiser in tough terrain (air lockers fitted) as others in solid axel vehicals with very minimal issues. I'm led to belive that many people that have alot to say about IFS have never owned an IFS vehical (please correct me if Im wrong)

Obiously IFS dosn't bost the front end articulation of a solid axel and IFS undercarage in between the control arms is subjected to more abuse and will hit tera firma if you hit the peak of a dune for instance at speed as aposed the bouncing over it as a solid axel would but hey, is it really that bigger deal? It just means you might have to go a little slower. IMO many cases in IFS equipted bush work you just require a little less speed or a little more shimiying and evasive manouvers to conquer the obsticals/track.

I Know im on a bit of rant here. It just anoys me a little that so many people give IFS such a bad wrap. Ie. A rencent post proclaiming that IFS vehicals (specificaly a LC 100) couldn't handle a "Moderate" track". This is rubbish providing a few simple bolt on mods are made.

Don't get me wrong, I know solid axel has many advantages over IFS but where IFS lacks, as I said it just takes a bit more effort, less speed etc to go most places a Solid axle will go.

Also many people that are new to 4by and 4x4 iliterate come here for advice on vehical choice and I would imagine many of these people trawl the archives as aposed to posting looking for thier answers. It would be a real shame if some peoples choices where partialy influenced by peoples disire to bash IFS into the ground and say in words that IFS is no good for bush work.

"(Long sigh)".............Ok I've had my rant. It's just my opinion and I needed to vent it.

PS. Excuse the bad spelling...........I'm a shocker!

Cheers.
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Reply By: Sparkie - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:15

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:15
Very good point.
I have a Jackaroo and as I don't do any serious 4wding but I am happy with the performance on rough tracks. I must say that although I did a bit of research on it I still bought a 4wd with IFS because it is my first 4wd and the fact it drives well on sealed roads it is just as good on dirt( and most times the dirt road only has corrugations). I think as long as you have a little bit of articulation on the rear any 4WD is very capable of road. I personally havent got a lot of knowledge on the subject as I am a NEWBIE but of all the off road driving I have done I never had her on three wheels so bad it had to drop a long way to the ground.I dont think a lot of the people who look on this site are into serious rockhopping and so I say IFS, IFS, IFS, OI, OI, OI.

Sparkie(IE not Y) ;-)
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Follow Up By: Schevchenko - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:28

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:28
I am the monster who submitted the original post re a moderate track and ifs and the spare tyre. All I asked re this was how cruiser owners coped with these limitations. Everything has limitations, I just don't know why Toyota have set the bar so low. I can drive a pulsar more places than 90% of all owners are LIKELY to take their 4wheel drives. And it handles much better than any cruiser. So what.
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Follow Up By: Alex Callaghan - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:52

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:52
Schevchenko said

"I can drive a pulsar more places than 90% of all owners are LIKELY to take their 4wheel drives. And it handles much better than any cruiser. So what."

Funny guy...........

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Follow Up By: Schevchenko - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:04

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:04
yeah i said that, and thanks for repeating it. glad it brought a smile to your face!
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Follow Up By: Alex Callaghan - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:20

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:20
Easy Tiger ;-)

You can't drive your Pulsar 90% of places that 4wheel drive owners could POTENTIALY take their 4WD's. Could you now? So respectfuly, I don't think any of this has anything to do with the bog cruiser that Joe Blow bought Mrs Blow to ferry the kids from school to soccer training etc. So having said that, your coment seems erelavent? (yeah.....a little comical though ;-)

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Follow Up By: Schevchenko - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 09:39

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 09:39
Alex - you said "IMO unless your big on competition events, seriouse rock crawling and or cross country work IFS is just fine".
I just thought I'd be silly and point out that the same logic applies for a trusty pulsar! Actually, I can't take a pulsar anywhere a 4wd could POTENTIALLY go. Sometimes its more about attitude than vehicle capability though. ;-))
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Reply By: Savvas - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:20

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:20
Alex ... most IFS 4bys will handle a moderate track with no mods.

I agree with you, unless you're into seriously hard stuff an IFS Cruiser, Prado, Pajero, Jackaroo, Pathfinder, etc., will handle most terrain. All comes down to the driver's skill and knowing the vehicles limits.

I have an IFS Jackaroo and have only had it stuck once, in extremely soft sand. In that situation, live axle v IFS would have been irrelevant.

The IFS Jack has never let me down even on tracks where I had doubts about my own ability. Commonsense is the key.

You know the old saying ... something along the lines of "a good tradesmen never blames his tools".
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Follow Up By: Baz (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:38

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:38
Hey you forgot the Explorer, after all it's the 4x4 that started it.

I don't know what all the fuss is about.

Baz.
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Follow Up By: Savvas - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 08:13

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 08:13
Sorry Baz ... of course, Explorer is another fine IFS vehicle
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:25

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:25
Actually Baz, not to be too nit picky but the First Jackaroo two door in the early 80's started the 4wd IFS argument, and their were many other before the explorer like the feroza in 1987 and the vitara.
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Reply By: Member - Stephen M (VIC) - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:22

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:22
Alex:

i couldn't agree with you more... i've had the 100GXL with the solid axle and now i have the IFS .. and unless you're into extreme stuff then the difference is minimal and more than made up for by the improvement in ride and handling...

steve
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Reply By: Crackles - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:32

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:32
Too true Alex. It's only on extreme driving where a solid axle shows any advantage over IFS & for 99% of drivers it doesn't matter. IFS has the advantage though when it comes to road holding & comfort. Take a ride in a 100 series or Prado in out back Oz and you would feel how far the solid axle is behind.
Some of the IFS however do leave themselves a little unprotected & look like they could sustain damage when it gets rough.
Cheers Craig
HZJ105 (solid axle)
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Reply By: Member Eric - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:48

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:48
I will agree with some of your points , but how soft is soft ? If you are going to go off road once a year , it dosn't matter . The people who are screaming are people like myself who see thats happening down the line . I have probably 1 to 2 years of my 80 series left and willl then upgrade to the solid 100 series , after than , my only hope is that there will be a kit available to get rid of the IFS and adapt a Solid axle front end .

I know this is goint to upset some of you , But I dont care if ifs is better on the road , I didnt buy a 4by to drive it on the street . I also am not faised what people want in a 4by , who are never going to take off road .

I also hate that people, excuse a company like Toyota, for not at least making a option , solid or IFS

In my eyes they still have lost sight of the big picture , of why they became number one .

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, Just rmember that this is only my opinion. And like yourselfves I am entitled to it
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Follow Up By: Baz (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:06

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:06
Hey Eric remember me.

SOLID AXEL
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Follow Up By: Baz (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:07

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:07
Spelling
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Follow Up By: Member Eric - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:37

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:37
Your not going to let that one go are you lol
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Follow Up By: Baz (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:39

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:39
Sorry mate just kidding, last time i promise.
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Follow Up By: ChrisB - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 09:32

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 09:32
'I also hate that people, excuse a company like Toyota, for not at least making a option , solid or IFS '

Eric,

Are you aware that Toyota make 4 models of Land Cruiser 100 series:

Standard Live axel
GXL Deisel Live axel
GXL Petrol IFS
GXL Turbo Deisel IFS

There always has been a choice!!!

That's why I don't understand what all the who ha is about. I personally have a GXL Deisel live axel and it's the bees knees. It was around 10 grand less than the turbo one so if I choose to fit an after market turbo I'm still better off.

I really do think Toyota made a huge mistake by not supplying 4WD Monthy with a non-turbo GXL 100 series for their 4WD of the year.

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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:27

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:27
Eric on group trips I'm normally leaving the solid axel vehicles behind mate. You'll come around, 5 years ago you were probally saying the same things about coil springs.
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Follow Up By: Keith Scott - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 12:27

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 12:27
chrisB, how do you find the power of the standard cruiser? Do you feel you need more power? I have read those motors were not really designed for a turbo, unlike the nissan 4.2. Is this an issue? I am looking at the standard cruiser amongst others for future purchase.
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Follow Up By: ChrisB - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 14:15

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 14:15
Keith,

I never driven a turbo cruiser so, no I don't feel like I'm missing any power. It keeps up with the traffic without a problem and when I'm cruising at 100 kms it's silky smooth. If there is a steep hill and I'm traveling at below 85 kms then I'll usually have to change down to 4th. I've had the car just over a year now and have racked up 45000km and it's got more power than ever before. Maybe when I drive a turbo one then I may say it's lacking in power, but hey it's a 4by not a drag car.

But take mine off the black top and get it in low range then it's great. I've got a 50mm lift and haven't yet replaced the original tyres, but even with them on the traction is great cause the articulation is fantastic. Looking forward to some MT/R's though.

The last thing I'm impressed with is the fuel consumption average of 12.6 to 13 l/100kms. On last years trip to Fraser from Melbourne I was getting over 1100kms between fills with the standard 145 litre tanks on the drive up.

I originally wanted the Standard but went with GXL due to the constant 4WD. It's my 3rd cruiser (I've also had a Pajero) and I'm too lazy to get out and lock the hubs in these days.

Hope this was helpful.
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Follow Up By: Member Eric - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 17:46

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 17:46
Exacly Chris , they sell a diesel GXL ( non turbo & only auto )
Pertol V8 ( no option for Riggid )

Standard diesel , comes rigid .

It sounds like they can do options , why not give people the option for riggid or ifs .

Now Jeff ,,,, I dont know were you go 4 wheel driving or what you call 4 wheel driving , so I wont like you to eleborate on that. I have never seen a ifs vehicle perform as well as a riggid in what we do , now before you all start comparing sizes , what we do , is look for tracks and trail that need to be walked negotiated and planned before going , now call us mad , but thats what we like doing . So on what WE do , IFS is like telling me open diffs are better than lockers
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 18:33

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 18:33
Sorry Eric, I didn't realise you and your friends are the only people who do any serious 4wding.
I was so proud when I used my snorkel the other day and crept through my sons paddling pool.

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Follow Up By: Member Eric - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 20:10

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 20:10
Now don't go putting words in my mouth , I never said anything of the sort . My comment is to you , and I asked you to eleborate on what you call 4 wheel driving , Some people call touring on dirt tracks 4 wheel driving others call rock crawling 4 wheel driving . A simple answer as to what you do is enough. I am not here to bag you in any way , just explain to me what you do that you leave your mates behind and what cars they have . I have a mate with a shorty Paj with ifs mind you , that goes everywere hard and fast . Its not the vehicle that makes him do deathtifing ( spelling ) things , but the nut behind the wheel , the guy is simply mad . You may be a fantastic driver with great off road knowledge , thi still dosnt meen your ifs surf is better that a riggid axle vehicle . It the simple theori of tracktion , the more you have the further you will go , now when you get wheels in the air , traction is out the window . No one is saying that the new cruiser isnt a 4 by any more , its just not as capable as a riggid .( do you at least agree with this ?)
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Follow Up By: ChrisB - Friday, Jun 25, 2004 at 16:33

Friday, Jun 25, 2004 at 16:33
Eric,

The GXL deisel 100 series, rigid axel, comes in a manual. I have one.

Chris
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Follow Up By: Member Eric - Friday, Jun 25, 2004 at 18:42

Friday, Jun 25, 2004 at 18:42
Sorry Chris , that was tipo , ment to say that it dosnt come in auto . They will sell a manual non turbo .

I asked if they could fit it with a auto box and they laughed . If they would sell me a non turbo auto , I would be happy , after market turbo and job is done .
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Reply By: Rosco - Bris. - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:48

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:48
"This is rubbish providing a few simple bolt on mods are made."

Seems to me that says it all.

You shouldn't have to.
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Follow Up By: Alex Callaghan - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:00

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:00
You dont have to. I for one chose too so my vehicals off road capabilty was enhanced just as many people with solid axles chosse to equip there vehicals with airlockers etc to enhance their off road capability.

Not a must but it helps.
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Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:54

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 20:54
Hi Alex,

Whilst I have previously owned an IFS 4WD, my last 2 were live front axles. One reason I didn't buy a 100 series 4.2TD was the fact it had IFS. Now, I fully achnowledge that IFS gives noteably better on-road handling, but that comes at the cost of off-road ability.

An IFS vehicle will handle off-road tracks very well, but at the end of the day they will not go as far as a live axle (in similair vehicles). Also, take the 100 series as an example (it was the one I seriously looked at), it can only safely be raised 35mm from standard. That amount of lift only gets it level compared to the back end! Any live axle can easily be raised 50mm and heaps more with an engineers certificate.

Next issue is wheel travel. OK, a locker will certainly help, but its much better to have two wheels on the deck and spread the load over both wheels than have one wheel in the air and only one wheel driving. A vehicle with no locker, but both front wheels on the deck, will get more traction than a single locked wheel.

Another problem with IFS is the rubber boots on the CV joints. Live axles CV's are fully protected by the axle housing and contained behind a steel socket joint. An IFS is only behind a rubber boot. Tear this boot and the CV will be shot very shortly.

Look, I am NOT trying to "bash IFS into the ground", but an IFS vehicle is at a definite handicap compared to a live axle when the going gets tough. While it will handle moderate tracks well, as the track gets worse its limitations start to show. But don't forget the significant advantages of IFS on the road. Realistically, most 4WD's spend far more time on the blacktop and this is where IFS shines.

Unfortunately you cannot get the best of both worlds with one axle system. IFS for on-road and off-road, but live axles rule once the going gets really rough (but suffer the majority of the time on the blacktop).

Cheers

Captain
Its not what you drive, but how you drive it!
LC 200 + AOR Quantum

Member
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AnswerID: 64731

Follow Up By: Billy - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:05

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:05
Another excellent addition Captain.

Having owned a Jack prior to the GU, I'd add the following:

Rear articulation is more important than IFS vs Solid FS. A Jack (which if memory serves has more rear articulation than a Patrol and one of the best rear ends in the business) will go way further than a solid FS Hilux for instance.

Anyone who reckons a IFS vehicle is better on corrogated roads has obviously not tried to keep the shocks up to one. High frequency oscillations will kill the shocks in no time and way before those on a solid FS which sail over most of them.

Just my 2 bits.

Bill
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Follow Up By: Baz (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:33

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:33
I'd put my money on IFS on corrigation any day, only got to look at desert racing, Paris to Dakar, OZ safari & so on & so on & so on. When you want to go fast on rough roads independant suspention all the way around is the only way to go period.

Baz.
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Follow Up By: Baz (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:35

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:35
Spelling again !!! no t in suspension ya bloody dill.
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Follow Up By: Alex Callaghan - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:40

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:40
Not going to argue with any of that Captain. Agreed. I'm not denying that solid axel has advantages over IFS in seriouse terain.

Just think IFS gets a bad wrap is all.



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Follow Up By: Alex Callaghan - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:49

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:49
"I'd put my money on IFS on corrigation any day, only got to look at desert racing, Paris to Dakar, OZ safari & so on & so on & so on. When you want to go fast on rough roads independant suspention all the way around is the only way to go period"

Bloody good point Baz.

The fact that each wheel can move up or down and not effect the other (move independently) and the vehical in effect floats on top of this speaks for it's self as far as corrigations go.



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Follow Up By: Billy - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:01

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:01
With respect, I think you blokes missed the point. If you have a look at the shock set up on those buggies and so forth you will see what I am talking about.

Regds

Bill
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Follow Up By: Leroy - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 23:50

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 23:50
Many good points Captain and most are the reason I now own a live axle vehicle. The big problem I found was keeping the 2 front wheels on the ground. As soon as one lifted you lost all momentum. Hence you often had to take a greater runup to keep the momentum over the ground where you would lift a wheel. I also changed a few rubber boots, cv's...... I don't miss IFS!!

Leroy
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:30

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:30
It depends how much clearance a vehicle has stock doesn't it, I have no need to lift the tojo as it is very adiquate for even very rough terrain. Sure I could give it 1" or 2" if I really wanted to without sacrfising much travel, but I don't need to. Why do 4wd owners feel they need to be 6' off the ground to be able to go anywhere...
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Reply By: Davoe - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:11

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 21:11
good points but In think someone else said it - a company like the big t should offer a choice in their upper specced models its not like the solid front end is discontinued technology for them
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Reply By: Utemad - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:18

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:18
You know what I hate?

Someone came up to me today and said "Why don't you buy yourself a real 4WD?"

"My shortie will get further than your ute"

Now, I know that his 45 series shortie would in SOME situations.

However I know that my Rodeo goes off road far more often and to harder places than this w----r ever takes his 45 series!

I think he just says these things to justify why he still drives a rusted, old, uncomfortable piece of crap.

Utemad
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Follow Up By: Baz (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:28

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 22:28
ROFLMAO, well said.
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Follow Up By: Leroy - Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 23:52

Wednesday, Jun 23, 2004 at 23:52
Don't under estimate the Rodeo. I drove mine to all sorts of places and people (mainly Cruiser and Patrol owners) were very surprised of how capable it is.

Leroy
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Follow Up By: Utemad - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 07:46

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 07:46
Yes. I have driven past a few 'bigger' 4WDs in order to snatch them out :)

I think one of the main reasons is that I know the limitations of my ute and drive around those limitations. However some 'bigger' 4WD owners think they are invincible and suffer the consequences.

Utemad
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:33

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:33
AMEN! LMAO.

Bloody oath, I go everywhere anyone else goes, without any problems, but I do it in comfert and saftey.

Don't worry guys, when you are forced to change over you'll come around. LOL

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Follow Up By: uppy - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 18:37

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 18:37
Hi guys, Ive got live axles so what.I travel alot with Jeff wa and it has never been a tissue,so what if one car doesnt have this or that.Whats the big deal when you think about it.I find weight more off a problem with my school bus(gq) and getting hug up on my live axles
regards uppy
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Reply By: Goran - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 01:34

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 01:34
On the end of the day no one has said that IFS 4WD's can not go off road. They can, but there is a lack of wheel travel and more damage and wear to components.
It is just that live axle is so much better for a vehicle that should be designed to go off road. Trouble is , most of the Independent suspension equiped vehicles are NOT designed with prolonged off road use in mind. There are too many advantages in live axle set up to mention them all here. Just measure ground clearence on IFS Cruiser front axle. See what i mean. Those bits are just begging to be ripped off by the boulders.
To those people that own IS 4wd's i have one thing to say. You are missing out on a lot of off road capabillity. I am a Toyota fan but i have to say that IFS on the 100 series Cruiser is so flimsy and weak, the only thing i can compare it to(by strenght) is rear coil mounting on GU Nissan Patrol. It is that bad.
Alex, independant suspension belongs on a Commodore, not on all terain vehicle.
By the way, my Commodore could travel "moderate" tracks with independent front with, as you say few bolt on mods. Where does it end ? You have a car with great donk in it, but if you want to rely on lockers to get you trough better carry couple of spare axles with you.
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Follow Up By: Utemad - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 08:02

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 08:02
What I would like to know is why is it that people take a 4WD and spend heaps of money on it so for the 1% of the year it is on a tough track (not just offroad but actually a tough track that requires the mods) it might make it ok. While the other 99% it is either on road or 4WDing in an area that it was capable before the mod anyway?

I've seen it happen. People get stuck somewhere so when they get home they spend a crapload of money on their vehicle. When they go back to a similar place they get stuck anyway. Although with the added bonus of a lighter wallet and a vehicle that no longer handles as well on the road. I think people would be better off investing in driver training to find how to correctly tackle the obstacle. Even just read an article on how to do it correctly would be better.

The only performance enhancements my vehicle has are BF Goodrich KO tyres and a K&N washable air filter. Both are better on and off road.

I understand the guys who spend a lot of time travelling around this country but there are also a lot of spec'ed up fourbys that never see the dirt. Isn't it bad enough that they buy a Cruiser to do the shopping but why do you need a bullbar, spotlights, rear tyre carrier etc to do that. Of course there are many people in between these two extremes.

Anyway just my thoughts.

Utemad
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Follow Up By: GaryW - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 14:23

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 14:23
Goran said "Just measure ground clearence on IFS Cruiser front axle. See what i mean. Those bits are just begging to be ripped off by the boulders."

I can't let that comment go unchallenged.

My IFS LC100 measures 245mm off the ground to the lowest point of the suspension at the front wheel. 325mm at the front center diff. and 240mm at the rear center diff. The lowest point on the vehicle is the rear center (live axle) diff.

Clearance is IFS's upside. Granted if the 'boulders' are next to the wheel tracks then Bang! the suspension will take a beating. But if the boulders are in the center of the track then the diff housing (on a live axle) cops it and then forces one wheel in the air.

IFS has many limitations but clearance isn't one of them.

Wheel travel is. Overcome by front & rear lockers.

Gaz
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Follow Up By: Goran - Friday, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:32

Friday, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:32
Utemad, i don't understand why anyone in the right mind would buy 4WD and not take it off road. Commodore and other street cars are much better and cheaper for city use.
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Reply By: Topend - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 08:54

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 08:54
Hi Alex,

I have owned a Troopie with leaf springs then a 90 Series Prado and now a LC 100TD. All were fitted with OME suspension only. I was surprised to find that on the same track the Prado proved to be the most capable when rock hopping, then the Troopie close behind with the LC 100TD third (the LC 100 TD has never seen this track).
Before fitting the OME suspension to the LC 100TD it was really below par. Approach, departure and ramp over clearances were the main problem. Getting that 35mm lift at the front made a huge improvement but it still falls behind the other two.
Having said that it still fits my needs.

Topend
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:39

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 11:39
But the prado has IFS, so what that says is it is not IFS at fault, it's just poor design on the 100LC as far as clearance etc goes.

And regarding parts being ripped off IFS vehicles, I laugh at you!
I was driving my little feroza down some very steep rocky terrain, driving too fast and being an idiot (as I pretty much always was in that little car, it was hell fun!) and I locked it up and slid straight into a huge rock going down a steep gravely hill. Stopped the car dead on the bash plate which was then pushed and bent around the front diff.

Backed it up in low range, charged in 1st low and pushed myself over it using the front diff bash plate. The little beast never missed a beat.
Same scenario in live axel vehicles - time for a new diff.
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Reply By: The Banjo - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 13:50

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 13:50
I want the last word...................word.
AnswerID: 64847

Follow Up By: Leroy - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 15:14

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 15:14
I think you got it!

Leroy....doh!
0
FollowupID: 325860

Reply By: srowlandson - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 17:09

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 17:09
IFS vS Solid Axle is one of the debates not worth getting into. BUT....

I have owned both (Hilux then Patrol) and now Prado

I classify my 4wding as extreme. Harder than the average person on this site.

I would say my prado will go anywhere i took my patrol and hilux
and it will do it with more comfort 99% of the time
the few meters that the patrol would be more capable is nothing compared to the other 99,270km's the patrol drove where IFS would have been better

There is no shame in winching a few meters because the prado's IFS limited its ability.

I also think most people under estimate IFS and have a phobia about it. if you haven't owned one, or driven one, don't comment.

Lastly, my old sayng is always true.

A good driver will take a bad car further than a bad driver in a good car.

I'll take my prado places a lot of patrol/80 series / solid axle 100 series owners would never get to from sheer experience and know how.

Steve
AnswerID: 64893

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 17:51

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 17:51
So what happens in 2-5 yrs IF that long, when there is no option for live axle??

If you cant see the direction of 4wd's heading soft as a 102yr old man, they you are blind!
AnswerID: 64903

Follow Up By: Member Eric - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 20:15

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 20:15
There is no shame in winching a few meters because the prado's IFS limited its ability

How do you answer that ?

so were is the off road abily in ifs , the fact that they almost bottom out in pot holes ?

or were you talking about road handling ?
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FollowupID: 325941

Reply By: Member - Paul T- Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 18:20

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 18:20
Bloody pnuematic tyres, they have the major disadvantage of going flat when you least expect it. Look what progress does, we should go back to the days of solid rubber.

Just my ten cents worth

Cheers

PT
AnswerID: 64908

Reply By: GO_OFFROAD - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 20:11

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 20:11
Thats a very good old saying of your Steve....LOL

Now, it would be interesting to see how many IFS knockers here have actually owned an IFS 4wd of reasonable build and travel [not lux/jackeroo/ mitsu t bar set ups] and / or have had the confidence in thier ability to 4wd something they think may be inferior.....

I have heard all the lame stories on why its no good, from horse and carts being replaced by cars, to coil vs leaf, EFI vs carby, bias ply vs radial etc etc etc....

I have had some extreme live axle vehicles, and now an IFS coil set up, and given i do alot of 4wding, I still drive mostly road to get there and back, and would never go back to RFS for what I am using the vehicle for.

And with the way 4wd tracks are going, what do you think you will be able to do all the tracks in shorty?

[a hint- any of the softroaders currently available....]

AnswerID: 64932

Reply By: Leroy - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 22:42

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 22:42
"IFS 4wd of reasonable build and travel [not lux/jackeroo/ mitsu t bar set ups]"

Gee you've just cut out a large percentage of the IFS market!

But I think it depends where you take your car to play. Here in Vic I think a live axel vehicle is more capable over our terrain here. I walk up hills/steps etc that I had to previously give my vehicle a bit of stick. Also I had to modify the front end to get more height, ball joint flip and spacers, cutting bumpstops, cranking torsionbars, etc and all this to fit larger tyres and try to keep wheels on the groud. The one thing that really hasn't been mentioned is that a live axel has better 'ARTICULATION' hence being able to keep those front wheels on the ground. IFS front ends have so limited downward travel hence they cant keep that drooping wheel in contact with the ground. This leads to other problems when that free spinning wheel hits the gound; broken diffs, cv's and I even broke one of my ASIN manual hubs.

Leroy - the one who now keeps both wheels on the ground!
AnswerID: 64974

Reply By: Tim - Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 23:33

Thursday, Jun 24, 2004 at 23:33
So what are all you hard core anti IFS people going to do when toyota bring out the next cruiser? Looks like its going to be independant all round!!!!
Which would be worse, an all independant LC or a NISSAN???
Tim
AnswerID: 64988

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