<span class="highlight">Solar</span> charging questions

Submitted: Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 09:45
ThreadID: 141212 Views:7519 Replies:5 FollowUps:17
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Hello.
I have a single solar blanket which I think works OK, however over the weekend I found out that I need more recharging ability than just that single blanket.

Is it possible to hook up more than a single blanket to a charging system?

Do the blankets needs to be of the same capacity (100W, 200W etc etc) or can you mix them?

Is there a risk of a more powerful blanket (200W) trickling into and damaging a lower capacity (100W) blanket?

I know there are two type of convertors/adaptors, MPPT and the other type I can't remember at the moment. Is the more efficient one, more noticeably efficient in the real world or only on paper?

Thanks for any help.
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Reply By: RMD - Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:12

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 11:12
Siringo
A 200w solar blanket will , most likely, have more output than a 100w unit and so it will try to discharge some of it's output into the 100 w panel while still being attached to the controller. Some panels/blanket have a LARGE diode in the output line to stop any back feeds, many do not. SO, it would be best to check the electrical setup each has. If using a 100w panel and a 200w panel connected in parallel to the controller the 200w, being higher voltage and amps output will almost negate the 100w. For best results the Panels/blankets connected in parallel should be of matched voltage and output ability so both feed similarly to the controller.
YES, a good quality MPPT controller, WiIL and DOES, provide more harvest of solar input and convert more of it to battery charge than a PWM, ie, on and off type of controller. I have three panels in parallel and read their input amps to an in vehicle MPPT charger. While charging, The solar amp input meter is always lower than the battery amp input meter reading because the MPPT unit, fast switches, and detects where the best panel output is, ie, the panel volts might be around16.7v and the 9amps BUT the battery is being charged at say 14v and receiving 11amps of charge at that same time.
Real not on paper,
I run my house 240v ac fridge on a 12v 1000w inverter system using two matched 250w panels in series, producing 65v or so. That energy which may get to 8 amps flow is used by the MPPT regulator to charge around 300AH of batteries. Because of the series connected panels and the higher voltage above battery voltage the MPPT unit can sometimes be producing 25-28 amps into the battery. When the regulator drops out of MPPT mode, ie, batteries close to charged, the difference of panel amps and battery charge amps is not much, 1 or 1.5 amps difference then. Most chargers have 3 or 4 modes of operation and switching of solar input so it varies according to the charge profile they use. for the type of battery used.
Most times I look at the monitor, the solar voltage is fairly high, ie, two panels in series, and the solar amps to battery charge amps is nearly always 4 times more amps than the solar amps because of the higher voltage the reg is receiving. MPPT makes good use of this ability. The regulator of course has to be able to withstand the full open circuit voltage of the panels to work this way. Make sure you buy an MPPT regulator which CAN handle higher voltages if EVER you decide to connect panels in series for your useage.
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Reply By: TrevorDavid - Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 15:57

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 15:57
G'day Siringo

Yes you can hook up more than a single blanket.

No they don't need to be the same wattage, better if they are, the most important thing is they are of the same or very similar output voltage. Blocking diodes help but are not essential unless one panel has zero output, eg a blanket thrown over it.

The two types of regulators you are thinking of are MPPT ( maximum power point tracking) & PWM ( pulse width modulation). MPPT generally recognised as the better.

Regards

TrevorDavid
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Follow Up By: RMD - Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 16:14

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 16:14
How does the MPPT regulator, track the maximum Power Point on two different ability panels linked in parallel? One panel has, in theory, twice the energy level available and that is what an MPPT works on. The sampling frequency and reading of two entirely different panels would make it a bit less than optimal I would have thought.
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Follow Up By: TrevorDavid - Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 16:40

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 16:40
Hi RMB

It would look at the total energy provided by they (now) solar array , not at the panels individually. If the panels were of different voltages it would look at the lowest voltage, which in turn would reduce the total power (watts) provided.

It would be better for each panel to have the same electrical characteristics but with portable setups its not always the case.

I also assumed a parallel array for this.

Others will have a better understanding than me; but thats how I see it.

Regards

TrevorDavid
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Follow Up By: RMD - Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 18:21

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 18:21
I see the moment the MPPT unit stops and samples the available voltage level the large 200w panel will be disharging electrons into the parallel 100w panel. The MPPT will seethat as a lower voltage than is actually being produced and probably switch the energy it thinks is there at a lower level. If the panels are used with two different controllers to charge the battery it might just work ok and provide a maximum charge outcome, seeing the panels are hardly likely to be delivering same same voltage at any time, unless miraculously tgey are positioned and tested in duch a way as the make that happen. I use two different mppt units and different wattage panel arrays to charge a system I use.
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 18:33

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 18:33
Based solely on my experience and not theory, I agree with TrevorDavid. I have three arrays that I can connect up to my van which has an MPPT regulator. They were bought over a number of years and consequently they do not share the same characteristics, specifically they have different Vmp, though all are nominally 12V panels.

One is 240watts of portable glass panels, the next is 200 watts of thin semi-flexible mounted to the roof of the van and the third is 2 x 100watt thin panels that belong to the ute, but that I can hook up to the van if I want.

With depleted van batteries on an ideal, cold, clear day with high sun and optimal orientation, I tried an experiment.

First, just the 200 watts rooftop by themselves - they gave 10 amps. Not the perfect result, but with the sloping roof of the van the panels cannot be ideally oriented to the sun.

Then I added the 240 watts of portable glass panels. That took the output from the controller to 28 amps, close to its max of 30 amps.

On that day I couldn't add any more as the regulator would have maxed out. But on another cloudy day I did the same experiment and added the extra 200 watts of panels normally reserved for the ute, for a nominal total of 640 watts. Again, I got close to the 30 watt max output from the regulator.

So IMO, you CAN add panels WITH THE SAME NOMINAL VOLTAGE (ie 12V) but with slightly different characteristics. You won't get the optimum result, but you will get an improvement.

Also, I have blocking diodes in the output of all my arrays so that a stronger array or panel cannot backfeed into a lesser one - all the "juice" goes to the regulator.


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Follow Up By: RMD - Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 19:16

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 19:16
G'day Frank.
I agree and think the blocking diodes would be a distinct advantage in MPPT sampling.
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 19:50

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 19:50
Thanks RMD. I do lose a little with a voltage drop over the blocking diodes, but the MPPT regulator seems to figure it out. I am very happy with what I have. Have not run the genny in anger in 5 years, despite being a power-hungry user. 360Ah of lithium helps :-)

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Follow Up By: Siringo - Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 09:59

Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 09:59
What your experiment showed is what I was thinking would happen Frank P.

The other thing I was overlooking was the max allowable current the battery/ies can take in while being recharged. There's no point having 40 amps available, if it/they can only accept 30 amps.

I know Victron and suspected of being good quality with regards to MPPT's any other brands I could look at?
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:41

Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:41
The rate of charge acceptance with lead acid batteries is highly dependent on the charge voltage offered. An extra 0.1 or 0.2V can make a significant difference.
Get the battery maker's specific charge and float recommendations and choose a solar regulator that is programmable so you can set them EXACTLY.
Also fit a temperature compensator. Batteries charge faster at higher temperatures and slower at lower temperatures, so compensating for that will optimise the charge rate.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:43

Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:43
EDIT: Peter posted while I was typing. I second his comments.

The ideal regulator is one where you can set the charging parameters to suit the target battery - ie, programmable. For lead-acid batteries this would include adjustments for max current in the Bulk phase of charging and the transition voltages from Bulk to Absorption and Absorption to Float.

Or, buy a multi-stage regulator with characteristics to suit your battery. Cheaper, but a less flexible arrangement should you wish to change batteries. Generic voltage parameters are usually ok, just buy one with a max current to suit your aux batteries.

Here is a good programmable lead-acid regulator at a reasonable price from Jaycar. Max output 30 amps. Anything in excess of that is just dumped. A number of folk in my van owner's club use them with good results.

If $$ are not too much of an issue, Enerdrive's DC2DC accepts up to 500 watts of solar input (750 if you use panels in series). It is also an excellent dc to dc charger, giving your house battery a tailored charge from the vehicle's alternator. It is totally programmable so you can limit the current if you want to. It is also suitable for lithium batteries should you want to upgrade.

Both the above have temperature compensation for lead-acid batteries.

I could also recommend the one I use, but a quick check of the manufacturer's website reveals it is discontinued :-(

There are many more out there!
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Follow Up By: Siringo - Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:54

Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 10:54
Brilliant. Thanks Frank & Peter for your help. I'll check out all the suggestions.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 15:05

Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 15:05
Frank, not only is your GSL discontinued but so is the referenced Jaycar one, although they do offer an alternative.

In my new vehicle build I have elected to use all Enerdrive...... solar, battery, management and chargers. Be aware though that the DC2DC 40Amp Enerdrive charger you referenced has a maximum input voltage rating of 45V. So there is need to evaluate the solar panels and charger before opting for a series panel arrangement.
My selected panels are rated at 22.8Voc so two in series could be as much as 45.6V and Enerdrive's specific response was that using these panels in series with the DC2DC charger was likely to damage the charger.
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 16:59

Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 16:59
Allan,

I wonder why Enerdrive left themselves so little wriggle room with that input voltage for nominal 24V panels. It invites series/parallel with 12V panels but I think it would cut out many brands, as you have discovered. Maybe it better addresses native 24V panels, but only guessing there as I've done no research on those.

My GSL will take 90V, the Jaycar one 80, so it doesn't seem too difficult to do
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 17:35

Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 17:35
.
Yes, it is surprising Frank and I don't know the answer.
I can only presume that the product designer chose input components based on over-riding criteria preferences.

Using four 120W panels, I had planned a series/parallel arrangement simply to minimise the cabling but it is not a problem, now it's simply a cable pair from each panel.
I console myself with the thought that if a panel goes open-circuit it will not affect a series mating panel. And, if I want, I can monitor the output from each panel individually using a clamp meter. Don't know why I would really want to do that, but I could. lol
Cheers
Allan

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Reply By: Siringo - Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 17:51

Tuesday, Mar 09, 2021 at 17:51
Thanks guys for the helpful comments.
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Reply By: Member - mechpete - Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 13:40

Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 13:40
i have a 175w panel a 120w panel ,i connect them with an anderson plug double adaptor
then plug it into the the solar plug in the camper trailer ,make sure they are unregulated when plugged into the van because you get the regs fighting the DC to DC charger in the van
an you end up with a waste of solar not going into the batteries
cheer mechpete
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Follow Up By: Peter_n_Margaret - Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 14:18

Wednesday, Mar 10, 2021 at 14:18
In other words, the solar regulators (more than one is OK) must be near the battery, not at the solar panel.
Cheers,
Peter
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Reply By: Member - LeighW - Monday, Mar 15, 2021 at 19:30

Monday, Mar 15, 2021 at 19:30
Personally I have never found a need for blocking diodes as long as the panels have a similar output voltage.

Paralleling panels on a MPPT also no problem, the MPPT looks at the max power point, ie it loads up the panels/s to find the max power and stabilises around it. Many MPPT will search for multiple max power points and use the highest one.

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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Tuesday, Mar 16, 2021 at 08:07

Tuesday, Mar 16, 2021 at 08:07
I have always thought a solar cell,and I could be very wrong here, was like an LED in reverse producing a potential when exposed to light and blocking current in reverse bias like a diode.
I really cant remember where that thought was put into my head but it was way before the internet was a household luxury.
When I have my panels out at easter I will plug one in without a reg as the light fades and observe a clamp metre.
If there is any significant discharge then surly someone would have come up with a reverse current relay similar principle to the rcr cut out in generator regulators that were set to cut in at 12.5 dynamo volts and cut out at 2 to 3 amps of reverse flow. ( I'd love a dollar for every one of those I set, oh hang on, I was paid to to them lol)No voltage drop like diodes.
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Mar 16, 2021 at 11:05

Tuesday, Mar 16, 2021 at 11:05
From this page:



This is why I have placed blocking diodes in the output of each of my paralleled strings. I have a total 440 watts of solar. It is quite possible for one 100 watt string (2 x 50 watts in series) to be shaded and the other 340 watts to be in full sun. The blocking diode on the output of that shaded string stops the 340 watts of lit strings from feeding back into that shaded 100 watt shaded string.

If you don't do that and if there is enough power in the lit strings, the reverse current can be strong enough to damage one or more of the shaded cells. Also, without considering the potential for damage, that reverse current is lost to the charging system. By preventing it from occurring, all available output is forced to go to the regulator and then to the batteries.

I got my info from a site PVeducation.org, in particular this page where it says

[quote]
With parallel connected modules, each string to be connected in parallel should have its own blocking diode. This not only reduces the required current carrying capability of the blocking diode, but also prevents current flowing from one parallel string into a lower-current string and therefore helps to minimize mismatch losses arising in parallel connected arrays.
[/quote]
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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Tuesday, Mar 16, 2021 at 13:21

Tuesday, Mar 16, 2021 at 13:21
Interesting, so what they are saying I should see a significant discharge from my battery back into the panel as the light fades if connected without a regulator?
Will let you know the result after easter.
And before anyone jumps in, yes I understand the risks of running unregulated and know how to monitor the situation.
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